Spiral Knights - Wave-Based survival.

Wave-Based survival.

39 replies [Last post]

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 14:12

Frydhamstr

*NOTE*: Sorry if this has been posted before. I didn't see any in my search and the forum search function either isn't working, or is EXTREMELY slow (for me, at least). Please tell me if this has been talked about in another thread.*

So, recently, I was thinking about new things that would make this game fun, especially for Vanguards (end-game peoples). Now, Spiral Knights obviously has co-op at it's core, so I thought, "why not a survival mode?".

So, that's what I'm here to talk about. This could be done in any way OOO desires, obviously, but I would like to talk about some ideas I had for such a thing. So, without further ado, here we go.

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Mechanics

The objective of each map is to protect a certain item at the center (which I will call your 'precious' from now on as a general term). The item varies visually depending on the map but will always function the same way.

Every map/area has a "Garrison" at it's center, the garrison has your standard amenities like the forge, an alchemy machine, respawning heart tiles, and possibly Basil. It also has a monitor displaying the type of enemies you will be facing the next wave (much like elevators for the next floor). The garrison can only be accessed between waves, as gates around it close when a wave starts, and reopen when the wave ends.

Waves can be started via a party button OUTSIDE the garrison, and get increasingly more difficult as the party goes through more of them. Enemies spawn along the outside walls of the map, and attempt to reach your precious. If your precious is destroyed, then you fail the mission, if you kill all enemies in the wave, then you advance on to the next one. Your current wave number should be displayed somewhere on the HUD.

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Game Modes/Types

Limited Survival: A mode that has a limited number of waves (displaying as "Wave /" on the HUD). This usually ends with some sort of 'boss' wave or something similar. This could be placed anywhere in the clockworks or in missions as it's own floor type.
Unlimited Survival: This is a separate game mode that is entered voluntarily from the missions screen. After forming a party, the player(s) will descend into the clockworks for an endless slaughter of both monsters and, eventually, knights as well. An elevator to Haven is added to the garrison in this game mode if players wish to leave after beating a wave (since there is no definite "depth", the depth counter on the minimap is replaced with a wave counter).
Some map ideas for Unlimited:
-Rescue Camp (protect the generator!) Maybe this could be a limited survival story mission as well?
-Moorcroft Manor (not quite sure what your precious here would be)
-Emberlight (A resident of Emberlight has requested protection from a group of Gremlin assassins sent to kill him!)
-The Lab (The crimson order has returned for the artifact, do not let them get it!)
-Other Generic clockworks levels

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Buildings

Enemies, instead of dropping crowns and heat will drop "Survival Tokens" (along with mats & vitapods, crowns and heat will be a set amount rewarded at the end of each wave that increases as waves get more difficult). These tokens can be spent at a vendor in the garrison (Basil?) for your standard "Travelling Merchant" items as well as certain "buildings". These buildings, once bought, will be immediately 'picked up' by the player much like keys and guild furniture. A building has the same 'physical' limitations as said keys and furniture and cannot be placed too close to enemy spawns (they also cannot be bought if the player has their hands full). All buildings can be destroyed by enemies. Buildings include:
- Turrets (the rescue camp ones we are familiar with)
- Barrier (some sort of wooden or metallic barrier, knights can attack through it, enemies cannot, although they can damage and destroy it)
- Spike traps (same exact tile and function [turns on/off], but effects hostiles)

Well, anyway, just a few of my ideas (I might add some more if I forgot something). Thoughts on wave-based survival in SK?

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EDITS & Additions

I think a system where, if you die, you are out for the wave, would work well, and maybe an emergency revive for every wave. If every player is dead, the party looses. This system is only active should the party choose to NOT have a precious for the mission (Thanks to Zephyniren).

General consensus says that status traps are OP/easy to abuse, so I have removed them.

===

Thanks to: Little-Juances - the idea is that buildings cannot be placed too close to enemy spawns, and (i forgot to add this) that traps have a limited amount of 'uses' before it is destroyed. Typed enemies every new wave should make it more difficult (and risky) to spam traps as well (buildings are expensive as well!). I think with this in mind, the increasing difficulty of enemies, and balancing some things out with pricing and such, traps can actually become rather useless in the later waves. Just my two cents.

===

Thanks to: Sirius-Voltbreaker

- As I said above, status traps can be balanced if you make them expensive, and with a limited number of uses before being destroyed.

- Leaderboards would be cool as well, but that is more of a thing for OOO to decide on. Missions should also be separated by Tier (much like OCH)

- Maybe an alchemy machine like the one in the Sanctuary would be cool, and Basil's recipe inventory could grow as you advance in the waves (maybe he finds them between waves? :P)

- The tokens are basically as common as crowns, and things like status vials and capsules should be relatively cheap, but buildings are very expensive. Prestige could possibly be rewarded every like 5-10 waves or so.

- A barrier around enemy spawns should also be added

===

Thanks to: Kryophyre
- Perhaps access to the arsenal/forge should be every 3 waves on Normal, every 5 waves on Advanced, and no access at all on Elite?

- Maps should have specific, designated areas for building placement, to make things more balanced/challenging.

- Randomizing enemies in later waves would be cool, and maybe in those waves the garrison monitor simply displays static?

- I like the idea of having crown bonuses for no deaths, number of enemies killed (for individual players) as well as a time bonus.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 16:03

Phoenix-Wyvern

Awesome

This would be AWESOME.
OOO, READ THIS NOW!!!

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 18:12

Little-Juances

The only way any of those survival arenas could work is if enemies resist both freeze, shock and stun.

Else, it's just a matter of bombs and patience. A war of attrition I'd say.
The concept fails when you can just block the enemy almost at their spawn spots. They'll never reach the objective and you just pick them off one by one.

So, status immunity or outright block those weapons.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 19:26

Sirius-Voltbreaker

I very much doubt they are gonna be able to pick em off that easily unless you use bombs for your whole team which people already do. And a 7 second invincibilty time frame would work to stop camping. And no status traps. It can't be too easy.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 19:34

Sirius-Voltbreaker

And maybe every 5 waves the enemies change?

I think they should also spawn as different statuses and those every 5 waves you can change weapons? Also are there lives or automatic death? Can you join near the beggining of a match or you can't? Could there be customizable lobbies? Like the difficulty group size? Up to 8. Maybe a really hard mode with lockdown abilities? (Without battle sprites if they are allowed) where if you are a striker you can be killed with a single hit? I don't want to ask or suggest too much since it isn't my thread but still read them please.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 19:38

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Also does difficulty go up as the number of waves goes up?

And I think there should be leader boards for teams that made it far into the arena on endless. And it is seperated tier by tier right?

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 19:47

Sirius-Voltbreaker

What stuff do you get from basil?

I think it should have weapon recipes and they are added the further you go. Maybe fire crystals? Or other rarities? Can you also get money with the tokens? Are the tokens rare, common or very common? Do things require many tokens or very little? (The prices and spawn rates should correspond with eachother) Can you get prestige?
Sorry if I am asking too much I had a thread much like this but it wasn't nearly as well thought out as yours and I want this thread to be perfect so I wanna see all potential problems.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 19:49

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Also there should be

A barrier near where the enemies spawn probably.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 21:51

Frydhamstr

It's called the 'edit' button?

I think a system where, if you die, you are out for the wave, would work well, and maybe an emergency revive for every wave. If every player is dead, the party looses.

@ Little-Juances, the idea is that buildings cannot be placed too close to enemy spawns, and (i forgot to add this) that traps have a limited amount of 'uses' before it is destroyed. Typed enemies every new wave should make it more difficult (and risky) to spam traps as well (buildings are expensive as well!). I think with this in mind, the increasing difficulty of enemies, and balancing some things out with pricing and such, traps can actually become rather useless in the later waves. Just my two cents.

@Sirius-Voltbreaker Wow, lol. I'll just make a list of responses XD

- As I said above, status traps can be balanced if you make them expensive, and with a limited number of uses before being destroyed.

- I mentioned the garrison, which allows you access to the forge/arsenal and other things between waves. Enemies will change every wave as indicated by a monitor in the garrison.

- I also mentioned this, the difficulty does go up, as is standard in endless survival. Leaderboards would be cool as well, but that is more of a thing for OOO to decide on. I think it should be separated by tier, yes.

- Maybe an alchemy machine like the one in the Sanctuary would be cool, and Basil's recipe inventory could grow as you advance in the waves (maybe he finds them between waves? :P)

- The barrier should be added, yes.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I'll make some edits to the OP.

Sat, 09/07/2013 - 21:57

Terrty

crv

*miniachal luaghter* PLUS 7574478R357447Y775

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 05:50

#10

Zephyniren

This one. I like it.

Essentially, what you've got here is Mann VS Machine inside SK. I want this to happen, but enemies would have to be immune to status effects otherwise you'd need little more than a Shiv and you're set. However, if you fail when the party dies, it becomes more like Zombies from the Call of Duty series. I'm not sure that that would be a good idea if you're defending something, as giant waves of enemies coupled with status resistance and finally failure upon death, I reckon that you should have an unlimited number of respawns.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 07:02

#11

Kryophyre

Do you think they could add this to the Coliseum games?

It would be kind of cool to have a PvE method of getting Krogmo coins, but that's just wishy washy dream-talk. I feel like the Coliseum is a PvP place.
But that aside, I like this idea. I'm kind of surprised this hasn't already been brought up though. Anyway, here are some of my thoughts on this:

Garrison: I don't know if letting knights switch gear between waves would be the best idea. Maybe every 3-10 waves, but even then, I think it would be a cool challenge to go in with what you're wearing and then fight it out in that.

Buildings: Maybe there could be specific spots on each map where you could place buildings. This would add an element of tower defence strategies and prevent spamming buildings and puppy guarding entrances.
Also, they could add bell towers, like the ones in the Snarbolax levels. Maybe they could affect other monsters in different ways. (Attract fiends, buff gremlins, etc.)

Wave mechanics: I think it would be kind of cool if at later waves, I guess much later waves, enemies started to randomize. Like at first, you'd be fighting undead, but then a Lumber would spawn. Then in the next wave you'd be fighting gremlins, and a handful of slimes would spawn. In the really far away waves, the screen that warned you about enemies would hardly mean anything at all, because you'd be getting enemies of all kinds of types, elements, and maybe even strengths.

Reviving: Not much to say here, maybe a crown bonus for anyone who still has their ER active at the end of each wave?

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 09:00

#12

Frydhamstr

Thanks for all the feedback!

@Zephyniren General consensus seems to be that we shouldn't have status effect traps, so I'll take those out.

Maybe an option for whether you have a precious or the party-death system?

@Kryophyre I thought about the coliseum, but I didn't mention it as it's entire purpose, as you said, is PVP.

Perhaps access to the arsenal/forge should be every 3 waves on Normal, every 5 waves on Advanced, and no access at all on Elite?

I like the idea of specific building places, that would also make it easier (i think) for devs to build maps and make them challenging

Randomizing enemies would be cool, and maybe in those waves the garrison monitor simply displays static?

I like the crown bonus for no deaths, there should be crown bonuses for other things too, like number of enemies killed (for individual players) and a time bonus.

I'll make some edits.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 09:43

#13

Inferno-Forum

Derpuraptor Strikes Back

I'm all for a horde battle like this, but token-based that you could trade for crowns or special items. Also, I'd like to see unique minibosses every 20 waves or so.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 12:41

#14

Ra-Horakty

buildings?

Replace buildings with mecha turrets. Garrison gates should also be replaced with those special "screens" that allow players, but not enemies, through them. After wave ends, garrison should act as mini-town (able to change weapons, etc.), and you should be awarded a bunch of tokens at end of wave, not dropped by monsters. I also think that you shouldn't be able to give tokens to Basil, but give them to Brinks instead, after the mission.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 12:33

#15

Frydhamstr

...?

@ Ra-Horakty
Whats a "mecha turret"?

If we made the garrison accessible DURING waves, that would make things WAAAAAY too easy, especially if players could just sit there and lick their wounds without any enemies being able to reach them.

Tokens are used for the survival arena only, and you are rewarded crowns and heat at the end of waves. Not sure why this is a problem?

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 12:45

#16

Ra-Horakty

explaining mecha turrets

Mecha turrets were those things that blasted monsters at night at the rescue camp. You can also see them in OCH blasting gun puppies. You can activate them like mecha knights. See wiki for more details.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 12:55

#17

Ra-Horakty

Spawners

I think that the enemies should just appear, sort of like in those big rooms with the party buttons in the Clockworks. I don't like the spawner idea that much. Maybe in some waves, you could have infinitely spawning jelly cubes or something, but otherwise I don't think that spawners are such a great idea.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 15:42

#18

Frydhamstr

and such

@Ra-Horakty
Those turrets are already in the OP, this is why you READ!

Spawn points are necessary in order to have this mode function properly.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 15:51

#19

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Uhh

So are sprites allowed? Also are there different types of barriers? Same with the traps are there levels? How are they made? Are mobs attracted to these? That would be pretty bad because they could lure them.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 16:00

#20

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Also there should be

Eg. Norm. 1 Advance.2 Elite. 3-4 Also you didn't answer my lockdown abilities mode, customizable or new basil recipes every 5 waves either. Also does everyone have to go on a button? Or is there a timer that can be ended when everyone is on the button?

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 16:01

#21

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Also lockdown abilities would be a choice.

So they would be part of lockdown abilities.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 16:29

#22

Popoixd

+1 just a little pus =3

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 16:59

#23

Abelisk

+1. This is awesome. I've only dreamt of this for a long time.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 17:14

#24

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Bump

Bumpy Bumpedy Bump (tongue twista)

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 17:17

#25

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Also if different enemies are coming each round then

Allow changing weapons and forge and all that jazz in the garrison just make it that you change weps weaponseach wave.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 17:19

#26

Sirius-Voltbreaker

And i am assumin

No gun puppies, howliztrrs or polyps? Right? However if you plan these to be in this I suggest they just randomly appear like monsters normally do.

Sun, 09/08/2013 - 21:13

#27

Frydhamstr

PLEASE!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE Sirius-Voltbreaker, use the EDIT button (right below your name in your last post)! Not to sound mean or anything, but this thread is getting REALLY cluttered and hard to read with your walls of responses D:

I feel that I have layed out the basic framework for this mode, and will let OOO decide on all the balancing, enemy types, and all those other specifics. I mean, they know the game better than any of us (at least I hope they do o.o).

...speaking of OOO, I wonder if any of them have seen this thread yet, lurking in the shadows, watching us :o

@Popoixd and Utrex-Two
Thanks for the support guys! :D

Mon, 09/09/2013 - 16:32

#28

Frydhamstr

Bump!

Mon, 09/09/2013 - 16:42

#29

Sirius-Voltbreaker

ok but... it glitches alot for me....

You.didn asnwer my question >:{

Mon, 09/09/2013 - 17:17

#30

Frydhamstr

@Sirius-Voltbreaker

I already said, I'm leaving all that stuff up to the devs.

Mon, 09/09/2013 - 18:15

#31

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Bump

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 08:11

#32

Frydhamstr

Let's keep this thread alive,

Let's keep this thread alive, shall we?

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 08:31

#33

Thunder-The-Bright

please bump only once. I know you like your idea, but bumping is only gonna get you hate.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 10:30

#34

Kalak-Of-Tyr

I really like this idea. I would have lots of fun with this.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 17:17

#35

Frydhamstr

@Thunder-The-Bright

I can bump all I want, and the point is to get enough feedback on this idea so that it actually has a chance of getting implemented.

EDIT: But yes, at this point, I'm done "bumping" unless this thread gets any considerable continuation.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:18

#36

Pipipipipi

I like this ideabut

I like this idea

but question, will the monsters naturally attack buildings if there is no way to the precious?

oh, and there should be a building that is a mecha knight spawn pad, it will spawn 1 mecha knight every round for 5 rounds

NEW IDEA FOR LEVEL: defend imposto claus
this mission is only avalible during winterfest

description: the grinchlins (or whatever they are called) are attacking impostoclaus you must defend him from the attack or else winterfest will be ruined

waves: tier 1, 10, tier 2, 20, tier 3, 30

enemys: grinchlins

precious: impostoclaus

also, you get more presents the more rounds you survive, so if you lose, you still get presents

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:07

#37

Buzz-Bomb

Survival would be great to have in Spiral Knights. Would definitely help change the monotonous pace of the game.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:47

#38

Thunder-The-Bright

you can't bump all you want, it's against forum rules to overbump a thread. otherwise I'd have my thread to bump, and he has got less feedback than yours in the last part. that is a survival mode too.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 14:22

#39

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Thunder i understand

I had a thread like this too but this one is better and well thought out.

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Wave-Based survival.