Status pretty much outweighs Defense. Shield Data.
Sat, 09/07/2013 - 22:31
EDIT:
I have edited the title to better reflect everything since I'm going to continue looking into this.
After numerous testing against a Trojan on Depth 20 on Return to Ur I have pretty much come up with a conclusion that Status does indeed play a bigger role than Defense on how much the Shield absorbs damage.
This means that a Dread Skelly Shield will hold up better against a Poison Knight and Cryo Knight much more than an Owlite Shield can survive. However, things dealing pure-damage, Defense will outweigh Status and vice-versa if they can inflict it. Since Status in Tier 3 has a much higher chance of being inflicted with it than anything else.
Currently, it looks like a Shield can gain immunity to Weak Status much like Knights can, this is apparent when you look at both the Grey Owlite Shield and Crest of Almire on the chart below. It may be possible to gain immunity to Moderate Status the same way Knights do but I currently have no way of testing this.
WEAK STATUS: 15.00% - 38.00%
MODERATE STATUS: N/A
STRONG STATUS: 32.00% - 48.00%
The difference with and without Status is a massive jump, even a Shield without Shock Resistance but major Defense Resistance (See: Dread Skelly) takes 15% more damage from a Status attack than a Shield without the same Elemental-type resistance. (See: Grey Owlite Shield)
And actually has a major difference compared to the Crest of Almire, being a 38% difference in damage.
Complete list of current data can be found here: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Acies/Shield_Data
ORIGINAL POST:
So, previously from the Lumber-always-breaking-shield topic awhile back. I just went on a run and something rather interesting happened. I took a direct hit from a Silversap at Depth 27 on Elite with a fully heated non-uv'd Dread Skelly Shield. Despite the fact that I only had 1% of the Shield's health remaining, I took absolutely no damage form the hit.
This makes me wonder something, is Status a pure-damage type or a multiplier to the hit you're about to take? I tested this on a Lumber on Depth 19 before and everything with Stun Resistance was able to survive a direct hit much more than a Grey Owlite Shield (Anything with Stun gave about 20% of Health Remaining while Owlite gave 7%) and anything without Stun Resistance instantly broke. Owlite and Dread Skelly both share the same normal-defense yet Dread Skelly only broke against a standard Lumber, yet was able to survive against a Silversap. (Freeze)
So... anyone have my answer here? Is Status a pure-damage type to a Shield or does it act like some multiplier if the shield doesn't support that status type?
Sun, 09/08/2013 - 05:08
#2
very interesting
If I understand correctly, you're saying that status seems to hurt a shield far more than damage does. You then go on to speculate about the mathematical formula. That level of detail will require testing. I have never seen this phenomenon mentioned by anyone, so I doubt that it is understood. Thanks for bringing it up!
I don't understand your depth-19 lumber example. Did GOS break instantly, or was it left with about 20% health? You seem to say both.
Sun, 09/08/2013 - 09:04
#3
I'm fairly certain it's just a flat amount of damage, but it'll be stronger the stronger the status is. Lumbers have a very large amount of stun.
Sun, 09/08/2013 - 09:20
#4
My Data: (could be quite useful)
This is the result of shielding one hit from a Lumber, whose hit is Ele+Norm+Stun
D19:
-BTS no UV --> Broken
-BTS Normal High --> Broken
-BTS Stun MAX --> 7.5% left!!
D20:
(obviously the first 2 kept breaking)
-BTS Stun MAX --> 4% left!!
D21:
--missing data--
D22:
-BTS Stun MAX --> Broken
If anyone has some additional data/info, please share.
Also, I'm wondering if a different Lumber (Silversap, Redward, etc.) would make a difference, having in their attack an additional status effect.
Sun, 09/08/2013 - 22:34
#5
That's rather interesting,
That's rather interesting, Retro.
I have a Normal Medium and Elemental High and I still have my shield broken at D19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEHv_KSuLU0
A video I did a while back for the topic I was speaking of.
Most Shields with Stun Max take about 23% of their health taken down in a single hit.
Royal Jelly takes about 18%
And Owlite takes about 9%
Royal Jelly and Owlite both share the same Normal Resistance yet Royal Jelly endures twice as much as an Owlite can which should have the advantage with a Lumber.
Sun, 09/08/2013 - 13:44
#6
In which case, I have to ask
Which is applied first, the damage or the status? I've seen this happen to myself when enemies attack my shield. It breaks, and I get the flashing animation on my knight. But when I try to walk over a heart, it's not picked up. This happens to fire tiles as well when my shield is tanking it.
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 01:06
#7
So I'm trying my info on a Trojan on Depth 20 this time and this is my current findings while leveling up an Ancient Plate Shield:
Dash : 37.3% (.6% Lv2-3)
Dash+ : 6%
Slam : 76.6%
Slam+ : 37.3% (.6% Lv2-3)
Buff : 50%
Buff+ : 11.6%
To compare, Crest of Almire with Shadow Low: (Note: I'm also sad to say that I killed a Mewkat without even noticing because I pre-placed a DBB charge. :( )
Dash : 52%
Dash+ : 11%
Slam: 13%
Slam+ : 0% (Broke)
Buff : 68%
Buff+ : 43%
Aegis:
Dash : 37%
Dash + : 0%
Slam : 10%
Slam + : 0%
Buff : 14%
Buff + : 0%
Dread Skelly Shield:
Dash : 51%
Dash + : 9%
Slam : 7%
Slam + : 0%
Buff : 68%
Buff + : 43%
This is bothering me now, Dash does the same amount of damage as a buffed Slam yet it doesn't have a Status Effect. Does the Dash do the most damage?
I'm doing Trojan's because there's a constant 100% Spawn Rate and doesn't require luck, going to try other shields now since it just seems to be a .3% increase every 2 levels for the shield.
I'm going to try some more numbers in the morning.
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 01:55
#8
wow!
this information is quite the news flash for me, thanks for bringing it up!
@Demonicsothe, what you said just reminded me of the Plague Needle description xD knights being torn on wether it poisons then pierces, or pierces then poisons (and then something about the difference not really being the biggest concernt to the target)
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 10:12
#9
Little Bump here, tried it with two shields and yielded interesting results:
Firstly, I'm going to have to go back and check again with Ancient Plate, Aegis, Crest of Almire, and Dread Skelly because I didn't realize that Shock had a -chance- of happening.
However, tried it with two shields, Royal Jelly and Volcanic Plate shield:
RJS - Piercing High
Dash : 32%
Dash + : 0%
Slam : 45%
Slam + : 10%
Buff : 50%
Shock Buff : 12%
VPS - Normal Medium
Dash : 38%
Dash + : 6%
Slam : 77%
Slam + : 39%
Buff : 50%
Shock Buff: 12%
Now here's the interesting thing, despite Royal Jelly having a TON less Normal Defense than Volcanic Plate Shield, the Buff did the exact amount of damage with and without the Shock.
Royal Jelly Shield was also able to survive a Slam up to 45% while matching the same Normal Defense as Dread Skelly which ended up with 13%. The Amount of Status seems to affect your Shield's health up to 32% - 48% with a Maxed Out Status on the Shield.
I believe that either the Damage is reduced when there's a chance of inflicting Status and the only time that Damage takes affect is when there can be no Status applied. EDIT: Also have to take in the fact that I don't know how much Shadow Damage or Normal Damage the Trojan inflicts.
If this theory is correct, this would mean that Status will easily outweigh Defense on a Shield. I still need more testing though.
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 11:20
#10
...
read it somewhere that having a little matching defense is better than having nothing at all, that said I bet the result is a bit significant even when you only have shock:low. Also, status effect uv seems double the amount on shield compared to gear (look up the bars).
Just to point out, that's also the reason why lumber hits pretty hard, you had to have 4 matching defense generally to make your shield able to hold, normal + elemental + stun + theme (shock, poison, freeze or fire).
While trojan only does 2 damage type mostly, normal + stun/shock.
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 11:27
#11
You should make tests in Lockdown. Unequip your class shield and equip shields with different kinds of defence/status levels.
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 11:36
#12
Even then the Royal Jelly Shield which had absolutely no Elemental Defense held up against a Lumber more than an Owlite could by roughly 7%
Even Retro was able to survive a Lumber's hit thanks to Stun Max yet I have Elemental High/Normal Medium on my Barbarous Thorn Shield and it instantly broke.
Something weird is going on, I think the Owlite Shield is lying about its stats.
GOS:
Dash : 32%
Dash + : 0%
Slam : 45%
Slam + : 0%
Buff? : 45%
Shock Buff? : 45%
(I kept trying to get a difference in the buff but it applied the same constantly)
Now, here's the problem here:
Grey Owlite Shield has the same Normal Defense as both Royal Jelly and Dread Skelly, yet it was able to survive the same amount of damage as a Royal Jelly can against the Slam attack without the need for Stun Resistance. This should be incorrect as Dread Skelly doesn't support Stun Resistance and it can withstand a hit with only 7% of its Shield remaining. Yet as soon as the Trojan's buff kicked in, the shield broke.
Does this mean Owlite has a secret stun resistance or something? I tried it a couple of times of getting and the stats were the same all around.
EDIT: Zeddy, I thought that you couldn't use normal shields in lockdown. Physically using it I mean.
Mon, 09/09/2013 - 13:41
#13
..
let's see this according to your description
Lumber: normal + elemental + stun (non-theme because you only showed normal lumber)
royal jelly has the matching normal + stun max, while
owlite has the matching normal + elemental
Then 7% is just the gap between stun and elemental portions. I rather neglect 7% difference, since it's not really significant either.
Retro case
let's just say defense uv sucks compared to base original defense shield. While status effect uv is about the same boost as base status effect shield.
Your problem
I don't know q_q
I wish I could have all the gears I could dumb try myself. I don't have a lot shield anymore than I used to.
Zeddy most likely just kidding. But I certainly wish that too >_>
edit:
oh look what I saw on my old stash video
http://youtu.be/49i_2QtZc8o?t=30s
Swiftstrike buckler can hold that trojan slam at depth 19 pre-update (advanced difficulty now)
Now, I think I remember something about your position at trojan, may result different damage.
second edit:
Scratch that. Tried with depth 24 trojan advanced mode with swiftstrike bucker. and with few jelly king lumber tries
My assumption is that slam has a chance to have additional stun status effect or not (similar with shock/not trojan buff you mentioned). Sometimes, it doesn't, hence swiftstrike goes orange health, or it just damages me without stun. Sometimes it does, then it brokes my swiftstrike immediately and left me with stun. With lumber at jelly king, swiftstrike hold like 40% left (I assume the stun is not there) and 20% left (this with stun) variation.
Elite difficulty seems also adding this stun chance. Since I always got stunned.
Trojan dash and buff also does shadow btw.
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 01:14
#14
@Glacies
Derp, I forgot about that.
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 01:49
#15
I don't know if this has ever
I don't know if this has ever been mentioned, but I've had enough Lumber vs. Swiftstrike moments to suggest that distance from source may be a factor for non-projectile attacks. It should be fairly straightforward to confirm or debunk such a hypothesis.
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 02:59
#16
Ok, tried a bit of
Ok, tried a bit of Swiftstrike vs. Lumber in Solo Elite Garden of Goo, the first lumber that spawns on the right hand side.
Distance from damage source did not appear to be factor after all, but I was surprised by the results.
There are exactly 3 different outcomes of Lumber smash vs. Swiftstrike with absolutely no variation to each kind of outcome:
1) Small chance of lumber smash leaving swifty with a small bit of health (always the same amount of health)
2) Chance of smash breaking the shield perfectly but not affecting me in anyway
3) Chance of smash breaking the shield and inflicting stun on me but I did not loose health - ever. Even after 30 smashes, I was still at 100% health. Fun!
I'm not sure what the first result means, but the other 2 seem to suggest perhaps the Lumber smash is exactly as strong as the shield but it has a good chance of carrying status which will get carried over when the shield is exhausted. Makes sense, if the shield blocked status first then damage, no one would ever get status if the shield broke while over a certain health threshold. Also notice the Swiftstrike has the same amount of normal defense as 3* Jelly/Skelly/Owlite, so the perfect lumber smash damage canceling may not be a coincidence.
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 07:12
#17
@exerpa
dude...
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 10:37
#18
What depth were you on to test this? I'm fairly certain that a Swiftstrike cannot survive a Lumber Strike unless it was on Tier 2 or lower... Though it's not the first time a Swiftstrike Buckler has survived against a Tier 3 enemy, but to survive a Lumber Strike...
A variable for attacks does seem a bit... weird. I haven't seen this anywhere applied, as far as I know there's only a chance of two variables happening depending on the situation: First being an attack without the status applied and the other with it being applied (a great example of this is with the Trojan's Buff has this variable applied since the buff has a chance of Shock.) But I have never heard of three variables before.
Either way, I'm working on a Heater Shield at this moment, if the Data I have collected is correct, the Shield should have around the same statistics as Aegis. However, I only have a Mighty Defender at the moment with ten levels to go.
Tue, 09/10/2013 - 10:55
#19
@poopsie
lol, you got me, I didnt read your post.
Still, at least it was fun to learn that there exists some kind of immortality effect in just the right conditions
Wed, 09/11/2013 - 13:02
#20
Only took 4 hours of grinding but I finally got my Heater Shield and after retesting it, the Owlite Shield took the correct amount of damage this time, being 7%.
GOS - UPDATED:
Dash : 32%
Dash + : 0%
Smash : 7%
Smash + : 0%
Buff: 45%
S.Buff: 45%
It seems that Owlite has immunity to the shock-portion of the Buff thus it will always do 45%.
Crest of Almire - UPDATED:
Dash : 52%
Dash + : 11%
Smash : 13%
Smash + : 0%
Buff: 68%
S.Buff: 68%
The Same applies for Crest of Almire.
Heater Shield:
Dash : 32%
Dash + : 0%
Smash : 10%
Smash + : 0%
Buff: 50%
S.Buff: 12%
It's currently looking like Status does indeed outweigh Defense if the Attack applies Status, otherwise Defense > Status. A Shield much like Knights can gain immunity to a Status. (Weak)
The Weak Status deals a difference of around 15% - 28% (May be 38%, check EDIT 2) while Strong Status has a difference of 32% - 48% difference.
This means most likely that using an Ancient Plate Shield against a Gremlin will survive much more than an Owlite Shield if the Status hits.
Just a theory though. Also, moving this to The Arsenal now.
EDIT: I will need to retest Aegis as I think I got the Shock Buff the first time as it doesn't make sense for Aegis to take that much damage unless:
A) The Stats are incorrect
B) Aegis has a Secret Shadow Weakness
C) Aegis has a Secret Shock Weakness
D) Aegis has a Secret Shadow and Shock Weakness
E) Got Shock the first time around.
Also, I'm going to be retesting this on Advanced and Normal as I'm not sure if Damage increases or not based on difficulty.
EDIT 2: Actually, realizing this now, Weak Shock might actually do around 38% of the Shield's health. Based on the info, a Dread Skelly Shield has the same amount of Normal Defense as a Royal Jelly Shield and Higher Shadow Resistance than Crest of Almire. Meaning that a Weak Status deals up to 38% Damage if not more.
EDIT 3: Changed topic title, still going to test out my theories on other enemies/difficulty.
Thu, 09/19/2013 - 17:54
#21
Status > damage type?
So according to these data, a grey owlite shield can in THEORY withstand the fire of a T3 gremlin scorcher for far longer than a heater shield?
Thu, 09/19/2013 - 17:54
#22
sorry about the double post
sorry about the double post
Sat, 09/21/2013 - 12:38
#23
Good data
Glacies, thanks for the data. I'm verifying that choose the shield by the status is better.
And I think the status works like a pure damage, because when you are hitted by masks with the "correct shield", your shield doesn't receive damage. But when you are with the "wrong shield", the Wisp do damage to your shield.
With correct shield, I mean the shield that resist to the Wisp. With wrong shield, I mean the opposite.
Sat, 09/21/2013 - 17:50
#24
Midnight-Dj, that is correct.
I did a complete testing chart on a Trojan with every 5* Shield here: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Acies/Shield_Data
A shield can gain immunity to any status-type and it is a pure-damage type. However, much like this status suggest, the difference in damage is still a huge amount, a status-applied Buff from a Trojan does 38% more damage and the difference between high shadow resistance and shock immunity is a 20% difference.
I don't believe that the tier damage (Weak, Moderate, Strong) has any affect on the difference the status does, but it's rather interesting that Shield's can gain immunity to any status as long as the bar is full.
Sat, 09/21/2013 - 22:45
#25
Wow, this is really useful.
Wow, this is really useful. Thanks for putting this together!
Now how much status immunity does my swiftstrike need to survive a hite from Vana's fire, hmmmm....
Sat, 09/21/2013 - 23:58
#26
Just small reminder, which I don't think it's worth it to post..
Omega shield has different health unlike the rest, it explains why the health percentages are way off compared to the rest.
Sun, 09/22/2013 - 01:01
#27
Guess I'll get a Dread Skelly and Heater Shield then!
Sun, 09/22/2013 - 04:16
#28
I've gone ahead and noted that on the wiki page, Poopsie.
Bluefood, I can't really say if that will hold up against Vanaduke's fire since the lack of Health is an insane killer on the Swiftstrike.
Something I do need to test is if both Statuses are inflicted or just one. Because my Dread Skelly Shield was able to survive a Silversap's attack, which shouldn't be possible due to the Stun Resistance. That'll come in time eventually once I find a gate to test it on.
I also need to figure out if a Shield does indeed have immunity to Weak and Moderate resistance. Since I'm almost certain that Trojan's inflict Moderate Stun and Weak Shock.
Sun, 09/22/2013 - 02:23
#29
I don't know how much this helps your research, but it's possible to be immune to both the stun and the additional status of a lumber attack. +11 does it, though it might be possible to go lower.
Sun, 09/22/2013 - 03:27
#30
Adding a second status to an enemy attack (e.g. Electreant's smash) is pretty much a death sentence for your shield.
Sun, 09/22/2013 - 16:48
#31
Today I learned:
Anything with double-status is insanely over-powered.
Testing on the Silversap on Depth 21 of In Cold Blood - Elite, absolutely nothing can survive a hit from Silversap. Even Omega Shell with Freeze: Maximum couldn't withstand a hit.
However, I also learned that if an enemy is poisoned, not only does it decrease damage received, it also decreases the damage the Shield Absorbs by about 40%.
So it pretty much means that my Dead Skelly Shield only survived the Silversap's attack because it was poisoned without me knowing. So both statuses apply to the shield damage which causes every single shield to break, the only time you might be able to survive is if your Volcanic Plate Shield had Freeze Max on it.
Wed, 09/25/2013 - 17:18
#32
Or a heater shield with Stun
Or a heater shield with Stun Max
Wed, 09/25/2013 - 17:47
#33
So I was curious to see what was gonna happen and I ran a few quick tests.
My data, using a Stun MAX BTS on plain Lumbers was:
D19 - 7.5% left
D20 - 4% left
Found out today, D21 follows the pattern, as I'm left with what looks like a 0.5/1%.
On D21, a double-status Lumber breaks my BTS, leaving my HPs untouched (also, no status was received).
Mon, 09/30/2013 - 14:27
#34
If you wouldn't mind me asking if it's not too much trouble, Reto. Would you mind running Return to Ur - Elite up until Depth 20 and endure some Smashes (Both Status and non-statused) to see the difference in damage? (taking pictures would help if possible) I'd need both variables though.
Thanks to Qwote, it seems as though that each tick of Shadow gives resistance to Dash by 1%. Base damage for Aegis from the Dash is 34% and Shadow High raises it to 37%. Ironmight Plate Shield's base is 36% and raises to 38% thanks to Shadow Medium. I'm not sure if this applies to everything else but if that's the case, Maximum should only get 4% resistance for each attack in Defense.
If Reto can get me that data though, it'd help a lot.
Mon, 09/30/2013 - 12:21
#35
(Long post is long)
So an update:
Filled out almost everything on the Kat family and confirmed a few things:
Non Status UVs are pointless on Elite. Each Tick gives you +1% resistance:
+1% - Low
+2% - Med
+3% - High
+4% - Max
This means that each digit on the Shield is about +2% resistance. However, this is on Elite so I don't know what this means for other Difficulties. This also means that heating your Shield is almost completely pointless since you'd only gain about a 2% difference for each bar.
Secondly, I don't know if this is entirely true (however, it is a theory), Enemies DO NOT increase damage based on Depth. Depth 24 shows the same damage numbers on the shield as it would on Depth 19. Still needs more testing so this is nothing more than a theory as Retro shows there's a damage difference based on depth for Stun damage. It could mean that Missions have a set damage.
Thirdly, it seems as though each enemy has its own set damage for Status and Families do the same exact amount of damage as whole. This means that there's no damage difference between a Hurkat and a Kat, only that Hurkats have a chance of inflicting Status while Kats cannot.
The Status Damage for Kats seems to be 28% damage for all shields without resistance to that Stat and was exactly the same for all shields, however, a Trojan showed about 38% damage for the Buff Attack. So Status Damage on the Shield is completely pre-set by OOO. I don't know if it's based on the tier (Weak, Moderate, Strong) status, or enemies have some secret bar on damage.
Kats: +28%
Trojan: +38%
Oddly enough, Omega Shell took 23%-25% Status Damage instead of 28% Damage against Kats. I have no idea why, I'll have to look into this.
There's a lot to still look into and I'll still be updating this topic constantly here and there. As for damage numbers:
Dragon Scale Shield:
Bite: 46%
S.Bite: 18%
Bullets: 60%
S.Bullets: 32%
Grey Owlite, Royal Jelly, and Heater Shield:
Bite: 57%
S.Bite: 29%
Bullets: 60%
S.Bullets: 32%
Aegis (Shadow High):
Bite: 61% (+3%)
S.Bite: 33% (+2%)
Bullets: 63% (+3%)
S.Bullets: 34% (+2%)
Volcanic Plate Shield:
Bite: 59%
S.Bite: 30%
Bullets: 60%
S.Bullets: 32%
Ancient Plate Shield:
Bite: 59%
S.Bite: 31%
Bullets: 60%
S.Bullets: 32%
Ironmight Plate Shield (Shadow Medium)
Bite: 60% (+1%)
S.Bite: 32% (+1%)
Bullets: 62% (+2%)
S.Bullets 33% (+1%)
Omega Shell:
Bite: 66%
S.Bite: 43%
Bullets: 71%
S.Bullets: 46%
Dread Skelly Shield:
Bite: 74%
S.Bite: 46%
Bullets: 78%
S.Bullets: 50%
Crest of Almire:
Bite: 77%
S.Bite: 48%
Bullets: 78%
S.Bullets: 50%
For whatever reason, Volcanic Plate Shield has a 1% difference in status. Also, a bar with the same normal defense as Aegis (8 Bars) will have the maximum Normal resistance against the Bite attack. I don't know if this counts for Shadow too but I figure that the Bite is the same damage as a Gran Faust Bar.
For a complete chart, check here: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Acies/Shield_Data#Kat_Family_-_Elite
Mon, 09/30/2013 - 13:54
#36
I'll do it only if you spell my name right :)
Mon, 09/30/2013 - 14:25
#37
Could have sworn it was Retro, sorry! But if you could do that Reto, that'd be great.
Tue, 10/01/2013 - 10:33
#38
Stun MAX - http://imgur.com/sPDVLSb
No UV - http://i.imgur.com/A5mNYRZ.png
Tue, 10/01/2013 - 12:25
#39
keep it coming
I don't have anything to add, other than encouragement. Please keep this study going. (I'd help, but I'm already doing too many studies.) Cheers.
It can't be a simple multiplier because a zombie's breath does zero damage to start with. Our shields would never break against them regardless of defense.
Similar attacks include mist from greavers, fire patches from oilers, status battlepods, dead ice cubes, etc. The status seems to add a pure damage component, at least on those.