Spiral Knights - Traevelliath Talks Equipment/Builds

Traevelliath Talks Equipment/Builds

19 replies [Last post]

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 13:59

Traevelliath

In general, this thread is more about designing a build rather than being a typical "this is how you should play the game" lecture.

As a sidenote: I hate the Chaos Set btw. Did I mention that? Honestly, there's no real specific reason. It's a depressing tarp, soaked in gasoline, with a fine mix of shattered glass, twisted shrapnel, and high explosives duct taped to the inner lining, and dyed a disgusting shade of paste gray, with a touch of the most depressing shade of purple possible. Gameplay wise it's a dark shroud throwing a massive middle finger at the mechanics of the game, touting your complete perfection and flaunting your perceived amazingness... No offense to anyone who uses the set btw! Some of my best friends use the Chaos set so that makes it all OK! Right?

Weapons and Armor

Spiral Knights is a game that stresses offense over defense. However, most people seem to start their builds by picking their armor first. You want your armor to compliment your weapons. Unless you are designing for a specific situation where you want an armor set that provides a certain defense, you should figure out what weapons you want to use first. Do you plan to go pure swords/guns/bombs? Or do you plan to go with a sword focus, and still have a gun? Do you want your gun to deal damage or be there just for utility (pull aggro, knockback enemies, stun/kill turrets, flip switches, etc)? Do you want bombs for crowd control? Or do you want bombs for AOE damage (if not both)?

From there, you have to actually decide on what weapons you want to use. There is a wide collection of guides to suit your Sword, Gun, and Bomb needs. Now here we go into our next category...

Bonuses

The biggest trap players fall into when making a loadout is that they try to maximize ALL THE THINGS! You must get that +6 MAX bonus on EVERYTHING because that's what it means to MAXIMIZE POWER!

Yes yes, good for you, but let's talk a bit about practicality. If you have a weapon like a Flourish, having CTR MAX is completely wasted. If you have a Blitz Needle, having ASI MAX is completely wasted. If you have a bomb, having any ASI whatsoever is wasted. If said bomb is a Shivermist Buster, having any bomb damage bonus would be wasted. You can't/shouldn't just aim for universal blanket bonuses without thinking about your weapons. That's why I think you should start your builds with your weapons, and then get bonuses to compliment said weapons.

The hardest bonus to acquire is, by far, Damage. You can always fall back on UVs to give bonuses to ASI and CTR. However, giving you a flat bonus damage for all situations is difficult. You'll have to incorporate damage into trinkets and your armor (This is one of the reasons why I don't like using Vog). ASI is probably the easiest bonus to get, because of the amazing Swiftstrike Buckler. Admittedly, Sword damage bonus, specifically, is somewhat easier to acquire than most, with the BTS (but really nothing can compare to the vuluptous Swifty<3). CTR is not that bad because every weapon has a natural CTR Med at heat lvl 10, but there aren't that many armor sets that provide CTR, outside of the bomber sets.

I have a general rule of thumb I like to follow: Strive for Mediocrity: High is still quite high.

Believe it or not, a High bonus is still quite a good bonus. You don't need to sacrifice valuable trinkets and armor pieces to acquire a maximum bonus. I usually try to aim for High or VH when getting those universal blanket bonuses, and never more. This lets some random UV's still shine through, and not be wasted. Theoretically, the only UVs you care about are ASI and CTR med or better. Practically speaking, you can get a UV like +dam vs Undead med on an elemental Brandish and be perfectly happy. With only a blanket VH damage bonus from like Skolver/Snarby, the UV can shine through and bump you up to a Max damage bonus vs Undead.

Here's an example build. More specifically, this is my build when I need to bring a Shivermist into FSC. I'm not saying you should copy this build exactly, rather use it as an example of how to build around your weapons:
- Snarbolax Helm (Stun Resist Low)
- Snarbolax Armor (Stun Resist Med)
- Swiftstrike Buckler (Norm def Med)
- Combuster (ASI Med, +dam vs Undead Med)
- Final Flourish (ASI Low, +dam vs Fiend Low)
- Argent Peacemaker (+dam vs Undead Med)
- Shivermist Buster
- Elite Bomb Focus Module (CTR Med)
- Penta-Heart Trinket or Soaking Wetstone Pendant

Just looking at the blanket bonuses, you have Sword +dam VH, ASI High, and Bomb CTR med. Admittedly, it's a bit underwhelming compared to say, the gasoline soaked socks which would provide a universal +dam VH and a unviersal CTR VH. However, it's more about the individual weapons. Also, unlike wearing a pair of TNT coated trousers, Snarbolax Armor has this mythical thing called "defense," more specifically against Shadow Damage which (little known fact) is everywhere in FSC (Feel free to take a moment to recover from the shock of this realization)!

The Combuster has a net ASI Ultra, and a +dam vs Undead Max. I don't charge spam with my Combuster, thus a CTR med from heat lvl 10 is all I need (That's just my playstyle, leftover from back before Brandishes got a buff). The Final Flourish has a net ASI VH, and +dam vs Fiend Ultra, which is what I use to execute Trojans. The Argent Peacemaker has a +dam vs Undead VH and ASI high. I love my AP simply because I just need Swifty and it's good to go. I can rely on it for DPS and for utility (not as good as an Alchemer, but it serves it's purpose to finish off stragglers). Then the Shivermist has CTR VH, and that's all it really needs. Admittedly, the trinket is somewhat wasted on just one weapon, and the Swiftstrike's ASI High is wasted on the Shivermist, so the build is not 100% efficient... but it works pretty well. All of this is also accomplished while still having a free trinket slot that I use for defensive purposes. I could swap this for another offensive trinket... but practically speaking I don't really need it.

If I instead went with the flammable glass armor (and assuming I replaced the Elite Bomb Focus Module with something else), I would have had CTR max on my Shivermist. Yes that is great... however I don't use my Brandish's charge, I don't use my Final Flourish's charge, I don't use my Argent Peacemaker's Charge... So I'm basically sacrificing all my defenses for what? CTR Max and Damage VH on a Shivermist (So much damage man!), and Max damage on my Argent Peacemaker (more specifically, +2 over max against undead).

Random Addendum

If you're going to take away something from my ramblings, please let it at least be this: You don't need Chaos to be efficient with your item builds. One of the reasons I've grown to hate Chaos is that people always assume it's the only choice if you want to maximize efficiency. Nowadays, anyone who asks for equipment advice is almost always told to use Chaos. Chaos has become a lazy copy/paste response. Doesn't matter your equipment, doesn't matter your playstyle, nothing else matters: Just use Chaos and you're good!

Chaos is a situational armor set. It is not just for those who know what to expect or those who are good at the game. If you want a fully optimized build with Chaos armor, you need a build that is designed around spamming the charge attacks of multiple weapon types for damage. Otherwise, you can make builds that DON'T rely on the full Chaos set to achieve your goals (I don't mind mixing Chaos with other armor pieces, because at least the second armor piece can cover the weakness's of Chaos), WITHOUT sacrificing most of your defenses (Don't throw the "UVs on Chaos" argument at me... that is a whole different can of worms). You can even make effective hybrid loadouts without Chaos... It just takes more thought than "Chaos + Swifty."

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 14:08

Krakob

I uh... TL;DR'd it but I really have to disagree. I bring BKC and/or Chaos to 85% of all the places I go to.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 14:38

Traevelliath

@Krakob: Second to last

@Krakob: Second to last paragraph...

"If you're going to take away something from my ramblings, please let it at least be this: You don't need Chaos to be efficient with your item builds."

EDIT*
I really don't like the Chaos set (borderline hate). It's because people just assume that everyone is godly at the game, and they use it as a lazy excuse to not give any actual equipment advice. People just assume it just works with everything and for everyone, when it really doesn't.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 15:55

Alice-In-Pyroland

If you have a Blitz Needle,

If you have a Blitz Needle, having ASI MAX is completely wasted.

lol

Am I misreading this horribly, or are you actually suggesting ASI isn't useful on Autoguns?

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 16:04

Traevelliath

ASI isn't useful on Autoguns

Especially ASI max on Autoguns. Especially if you're going out of your way to purposefully get ASI just for your Autoguns.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 17:28

Lord-Patches

Much of your information is

Much of your information is extremely inaccurate/incorrect and will potentially lead players down a bad path.

--"If you have a Blitz Needle, having ASI MAX is completely wasted."

-Have you ever used a Blitz Needle with ASI MAX? While it may not be an idea stat for a weapon that is used for its charge, it actually is helpful by speeding up the rate at which you bring your gun up for a charge and shortening the weapon swapping animation time.

--"I have a general rule of thumb I like to follow: Strive for Mediocrity: High is still quite high."

Why would you give peolpe the so called advice of striving to be mediocore? While I believe that there is nothing wrong with being mediocore, people spend time reading information on the forums so that they can learn to better their play style and become a better/stronger player.

--"If you're going to take away something from my ramblings, please let it at least be this: You don't need Chaos to be efficient with your item builds. One of the reasons I've grown to hate Chaos is that people always assume it's the only choice if you want to maximize efficiency."

While I do agree that players do not NEED chaos to be efficient with their item builds, there is no doubt that the set is one of the most efficient sets in the game and is used/recommended by many many, players for a reason. The added bonus that using chaos set has is that it allows players to use ALL WEAPONS efficiently and does not require them to build an armor set that only works well for a few specific items (thus pigeon-holing them to use only those weapons to be effective without building an entire new item set), which is what you are recommending with your rant.

All in all I think that you have some useful information hidden in your rant, you should just think about restructuring it into a format that cuts out all of the biased oppinions, inacurate information and useless chatter.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 17:53

Traevelliath

@Lord-Patches

Firstly... I've heard of Alchemer switching shenanigans to pull out a few more shots per minute... but I've never heard that work with the Blitz Needle? Also, I still believe that you don't need to get ASI on Autoguns. You can if you want, but I found it just affects my charge rhythm. I've never been like "Wow! I wouldn't have been able to kill Vanaduke so quickly if I didnt have ASI on my Bltz!" CTR on the other hand...

Because you'd be surprised at how little individual UV's do. You can hardly notice anything short of a High, maybe Med if you're not used to it. I've seen people try to get ASI max and CTR max, when they'd be better off getting Damage VH, ASI VH, and CTR VH instead. That's what I mean by strive for mediocrity. You get as many High and VH bonuses as possible, instead of getting a few Max bonuses.

And this is what is infuriating me about the forums recently, and one of the major reasons why I made this thread. Chaos is good, and I hate to admit it. At the same time, it's not the ONLY answer, rather the easiest answer. I'm sick, tired, and pissed off that whenever someone asks for advice on equipment, the majority of responses are, "Use Chaos!"

There is the reason this thread is "Traevelliath Talks Equipment/Builds." It's full of my opinions. It's as accurate as my experiences tell me. The useless chatter is just for the fun of it. This thread was meant to be a combination of me venting, and hoping that I could change some people's minds away from the "Chaos is the only answer" mindset that we're locked in.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 17:58

Demonicsothe

The addition of asi does not

The addition of asi does not assist the charges as fast as you would think. Its very minor.

For swords, there comes a point when more asi is still helpful, but not as helpful as the first 3 points into it. 0+3 is extremely helpful, wheres 3+3 is overkill. You won't be swinging constantly, the only part where this would help is bringing up the shield faster. What does this affect? shield cancelling and blocking hits. Time your blocks right, and you actually reduce the amount of time in the shield waiting for the hit to come. Point being, that short amount of time should not be the difference between a hit or not, if you are playing well.

Wed, 09/11/2013 - 19:18

Dadric-Killer

It is possible that if

It is possible that if someone only focuses on perfecting their chaos set and have only one 5star set by implementing imaginary yet totally possible uvs
Chaos cowl with:
- piercing max
- shadow max
- shock max
Chaos cloak with:
- freeze max
- fire max
- poison max

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 09:14

Traevelliath

@Dadric-Killer

>.>
(Don't throw the "UVs on Chaos" argument at me... that is a whole different can of worms) - Traevelliath

You're saying it takes 6 UV's to make an armor's defensive capabilities only slightly below average, instead of "I'ma strap TNT and cyanide to myself!" Unless you absolutely need the universal damage bonus, then you can just get CTR VH (and even ASI VH) on the weapons you need/want it on. Instead of patching the holes in your armor, just wear armor that has no holes to begin with. Skolver and Snarby can give you a sword damage bonus VH, and give you status RESISTS (Such a novel concept!) instead of vulnerabilities. Same with armor like Shadowsun with Guns, and Bombastic Demo with bombs.

Yes, Chaos works if you're going dedicated tri-weapon hybrid and you want as many MAX bonuses as possible... but there are alternative solutions, even when you include UVs.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 12:31

#10

Poopsie

...

ASI on autogun does change the charge rhythm, and more importantly, it gives more gracious time to dodge. Without ASI, you wouldn't manage to (accidentally or not) release charge without receiving damage while zombie/vanaduke start to slap/hammer/jump on you. While with a good asi bonus, you could dodge after releasing charge from that situation. At solo, I would most likely be careful and take my time to dodge and hit back. But at party, I rush for an action, that could make party progress faster without making my party dies a lot. This also including the silly me goes to firing trap whenever I saw the chance to kill trojan. I rather get caught in fire (even when using full chaos) than fighting trojan for 1 minute long.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 13:18

#11

Traevelliath

@Poopsie

Fair enough, but then I ask: Is it worth going out of your way to get that ASI bonus on an Autogun instead of CTR? The only time I have large amounts of ASI with a Blitz Needle is when I'm gunning, and the ASI is benefiting several other weapons which need it more. I will admit, there is a difference, but it's more something felt, rather than noticed.

I guess my previous stance was a bit extreme. ASI Max on a Blitz would be appreciated, but I still do not think you should be going out of your way to achieve it (unless it's a side-effect of another weapon getting ASI Max).

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 17:02

#12

Poopsie

...

I always maximizing in this order, ctr (unless the charge itself suck) > damage > asi. ASI just give you more freedom on doing sloppy movements. I am implying asi because there is no offensive shield beside swiftstrike for handgun use. If shield like bts for gunner exists, I would definitely wear that instead of swiftstrike. And not going to be extreme-ish, I am quite happy with only med asi at clockworks btw.

On side note, I love MSI for blitz needle too. Sometimes, it's a life safer when you had run around a bit with charging on.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 17:13

#13

Traevelliath

I always forget about sprite perks... I usually just throw it on hp for a free vitapod. My sprite isn't levelled enough to get access to a lot of the good perks.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 17:23

#14

Battlegrinder

Pretend I wrote something clever here

I usually focus on ASI first, the CTR, and generally ignore damage entirely. Damage is nice, but there's no armor that gives a damage boost and has the defensive stats I want, And I backburner CTR because most of my weapons benefit from ASI (Antiguas, polaris, flourish, rocket hammer, etc). In fact, I think only my autoguns and nightblade really benefit from ASI, and even then I use the basic attack a lot of the time.

Regarding the autogun CTR issue, I think you're misusing the gun a little bit. If you're depending on an ASI bonus to get you clear of mobs, then you should change how you use that weapon. I find autoguns useful for long range wide area damage or close range single target damage, not as a general purpose gun (get a callahaun or a valliance if you want that). Using at medium range is dangerous, bordering on foolhardy.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 17:37

#15

Voza-Il

@Trav we....we think on

@Trav we....we think on exaclty the same wavelength! I also hate dislike full chaos set users (gasoline soaked socks :D love it). I am ok with hybrid chaos. It just feels so....narrow and shallow to use chaos or the birdpoop skolver, cause it shows a severa lack of creativity. Everyone striver for the Combuster/DA/GF/BTB/Chaos/BKC/Birdpoop/gasoline sock/Toothpick, even though there are many hidden combinations people are too shallow to diwcover.

For example, it takes a gunner to discover alchemer switching, which didnt exist when I played before my break. It takes a bomber like zeddy to do all his interesting bomber stuff. Tons of hidden yet potentially effecive combinations of weapons, wasted because the overwhelming amount of shallow thought shoves new and existing pkayas in the birdpoop direction.

Why not try to become a trapmaster? Or a stunlocker? Or just a completely epic troll (Epic qwote in lockdown!!!)

Trapmaster could use vortex and damage to throw off enemies. Stunlocker would use sentenza and DVS to prevent any attacks. Switch shoot callahans to maximize their dmg, or something to that effect. (Probably crap ideas, but you get what I mean).

All the shallow thinkers, for example, want a buff to the winmillion and troika lines, and nothing else (read carefully before flame). They pay no mind to underpowered bombs such as shard bombs, or to guns like iron slug or catalyzers. (Guns are getting better, but bombs need more work). Too much focus on swords and too little focus on bombs needs to change. It would be nice if like half of everyone vendored their birdpoop skolver armor and bought a dread skelly or something. So many things that need buffs.....(blah blah rant blah rant RANT)

Anyways, rant over. For the ones with a pea in place of their neurological activity center, here is a slightly simplified version:

SKOLVER SUX CHAOS SUX BUT GUD 2 BOMBS BUFFf AND GUNS

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 18:20

#16

Zeddy

This is a long thread and I'm tired but I will say that given the choice between a CTR very high pepperbox with asi high and a CTR max pepperbox with no ASI, I'll take the ASI one. The difference might be meh in terms of DPS, but it's immense in terms of being able to shield-cancel and dodge things when you're done shooting.

In other words, don't autogun without a swiftie.

ASI is also not completely wasted on bombs. Trust me, I notice when I'm lacking it.

I also agree with the mediocrity thing. I enjoy having my medium/low UVs matter. That's why I often wear full chaos/swiftstrike and don't bother with trinkets.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 19:07

#17

Battlegrinder

@Zeddy

I've never noticed much of a difference between no ASI and VH ASI on my autoguns before, but I don't doubt that there may be a subtle one that I'm overlooking. As a hybrid, I'm not a huge fan of swiftstrike (makes swordplay way too risky), but I imagine pure gunners will get more mileage out of it than I will. Honestly, swiftstrike is also overused imo, and I'm hoping it gets tweaked in the next update.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 19:15

#18

Poopsie

@Battlegrinder

I am tempted to give you the link of silly guide I made, just to show you how to silly autogunning >_>

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 19:19

#19

Traevelliath

ASI is also not completely wasted on bombs. Trust me, I notice when I'm lacking it. - Zeddy

Maybe I should just amend that part of the thread to have the word "Almost" in front of everything, as it seems to be getting me in trouble everywhere...

I still don't think ASI on Bombs are really necessary. However, you bomb significantly more than me, so I'll trust ya on that. Swifty is always nice and she seems to compliment everything.

EDIT*
@Battlegrinder: IDK why but I've always had a love for Swifty. I've been using her since my days as a pure gunner, way back before Brandishes got their buff and missions came into being.

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Traevelliath Talks Equipment/Builds