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Bombs Are Underused.

19 replies [Last post]
Thu, 09/12/2013 - 05:36
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk

It's true. All I see in both PvP and PvE are Guns, swords, and with the exception of a >>mist bomb<<. Blast bombs? Rarely. Shards? Even more rarely. Where's all the passion for bombing? No, really. You guys gotta start bombin'! Get dem' demo gear and cool bombs, like maybe go pow pow with some roflmfao'ing knockback with the Big Angry Bomb, or maybe create awesome combos with the shard bombs, or make cool suction effects and suck in enemies with the vortex, or inflict deadly status with the mist bombs, or use the Spine Cone bombs to tear your enemies apart... etc.

Well, this is why I think people don't use them:

Charge Time/Too Slow

"Different"

Underused, making some people go "These suck, then, right?"
____________________________________________________

Wrong. Bombing really changed my perspective on Spiral Knights. After figuring out that bombing can be so fun, and at a lot of times, effective, I turned myself into a bomber, and even joined Shard Squad.

My favorite bomb of all-time is the old shard bomb, the one before that apocalyptic shard bomb update. But, my current favorite is the vortex. Fun to use, most of the time efficient, and is great to use with groups in PvE, and sometimes it's good to use in PvP. But, all bombs are good to use in PvP (except some underpowered bombs like the Deadly Shard Bomb). So, water you waiting for? Get your grinding fest started, and get crafting!

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 06:48
#1
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Bombs don't give immediate results, and people don't like that. In the time it takes me to charge a Nitro, plant it and have the fuse time expire, I could've killed a zombie using a combo and a half of my elemental sword. Meanwhile, I would need 4 nitros to kill that zombie.

The bomb will still kill 12 zombies faster than the sword, but enemies in the game often only come in groups of 3 or so.

Still, it's worth carrying that bomb for the situations when you do get swarmed. After all, it's much more important to have equipment for dealing with tough situations than all the small, easy ones, but if you are purebombing, you're trading off expediency in the easy situations in exchange for easing up the tough ones.

With the advent of the chaos buff, I was hoping to see more people carry damage bombs as sidearms, but people don't actually care about what's effective so much as what feels immediately visceral. Their brandish say "700" when they hit a zombie with a charge attack, while a DBB will only say "250" on a bunch of zombies and that's a smaller number, dude!

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 08:46
#2
Bopp's picture
Bopp
normative default

Each knight begins the game with a sword and gun. This default establishes a social norm, under which players think that this is the "right" or "common" way to play. Overcoming such a norm is not easy, psychologically speaking. Threads like this might help.

Zeddy, I understand your point about the psychology of damage numbers, but you omitted some important details. The brandish charge often says a couple of 700s, followed by scads of 200s. Unlike DBB, a brandish charge offers knock back or other crowd control. The direction of the knock back is easier to control than with Nitronome. Let's not contradict all of those other threads where we opine that brandishes are overpowered, right?

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 09:31
#3
Momofuku's picture
Momofuku

@Zeddy: This is interesting because I find multiple damage numbers more pleasing than a single high one (ie. Voltaic Tempest vs Slag mobs in FSC). It's nice to lay down a bomb and watch them all shock each other until they fall apart.

I think the main reason bombs aren't as popular is because of the lower tier ineffectiveness: think from the perspective of a starting player. Going up against Snarbolax with a 2 star Blast Bomb or Splinter Bomb feels unnecessarily challenging compared to a Flourish and a Blaster. It's evident early on that given the slow charge time (with only +2 CTR reduction with Spiral Demo suit, and you'd have to max heat your bombs for +4) and poor radius of effect that your DPS and support usefulness is very very low even to other Tier 1 parties. Especially since you can main swords and still carry around a haze bomb and not have that much of a CTR difference.

You basically had to go out of your way to start with bombs or main swords and then get your bomb gear after that--at that point, you're basically investing into a class as a pre-requisite to scrounge up the funds to make 4 or 5 star bombs.

Although it's quite similar to how swords are more popular than guns for the same reason: 3-star alchemers are absolutely awful compared to 4-5 star ones, when a flourish and brandish are basically equivalent in attack speed compared to their 4-5 star versions, just scaled down in damage.

The lower tier weapons are too crappy to be used in those respective tiers and T1 / T2 encourage sword use to get through dungeons. It would be much better to have bombs give the fixed 5-star radius but with much lower effect / knockback. The pay off for successfully charging and releasing a T1/T2 bomb is far too low given how there are so many ways to cancel out a charge.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 10:14
#4
Wehasband's picture
Wehasband

I think what you are saying here is that there are a few people who play with only bombs in their weapon slots. Most of the people I've met have at least a bomb in their arsenal. Most of these bombs belong to the hazebomb series but no one's saying these are the bombs which require minimum skill so anyone can use them through spamming, at least not me.

The only way a bomb can deal damage is to, well, explode after it gains sufficient charge. Balanced charge times make for less spamming. Swordies worry most of the time about proximity and timing, gunners calculate speed and trajectory, bombers have charge timing and aoe to fret about.

Now, the majority of the offense bombs I know share one flaw that most guns or swords lack and that is specialized damage. The vanilla blast bomb is a hazard because it can disrupt teamplay with poor placement due to knockback flinging enemies everywhere.

And no, I will not mention the shard bombs as they were an attempt to create bombs with specialized damage. They might work well against sluggish and big monsters, but how about those darting around puking bullets? Maybe its a matter of taste.

It was a nice move to insert that bombing tutorial into the rescue camp missions. It should pique beginner interest towards the most unappreciated weapon type in the game, until they realize swords and guns make for better performance..

Does the op mean anything by mentioning a certain guild and including a link to their recruitment page?

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 11:42
#5
Bopp's picture
Bopp
good point

Does the op mean anything by mentioning a certain guild and including a link to their recruitment page?

Good point. I hadn't even seen that sly advertisement. And now I'm inadvertently bumping it again.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 12:48
#6
Krakob's picture
Krakob

I'd never try to give Shard Squad, the bunch of awesome bombers who might be the best coop PvE guild in the game, any attention at all!

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 13:49
#7
Traevelliath's picture
Traevelliath

I think it's partly the nature of how bombs work, compared to swords and guns. Swords and Guns are the straightforward, "press attack until target explodes" which makes it more accessible to newer players. Bombs are a lot more about timing and preparing, demanding more patience than a sword or gun.

Another problem I feel with bombs is how they scale. Ever noticed how few starting players will use an Alchemer unless someone else told them to (or they got it for free)? Alchemers scale by gaining more and more bounces per shot, per upgrade. This means when you first pick up a 2* Alchemer, it feels like you're throwing spitballs. When fully upgraded however, you're flattening entire rooms of enemies. Bombs scale by increasing in AOE. While it works, and encourages people to upgrade their bombs, it also means that 2* bombs just don't have the same destructive tendencies as their 5* counterparts. You don't get those moments where an entire screen of enemies are being tossed around as shadowy Snarbolaxes are leaping through the air. Bombs just don't really feel that powerful until you've upgraded them a fair amount. Not to mention, there aren't that many moments in Tier 1 where you're up against hordes of enemies.

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 21:06
#8
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk
RE: good point

Does the op mean anything by mentioning a certain guild and including a link to their recruitment page?

You guys make me laugh...

Thu, 09/12/2013 - 21:42
#9
Lord-Patches's picture
Lord-Patches
I agree, bombing is fun and

I agree, bombing is fun and it would be cool if we saw more skilled bombers. Also, why does the Electron Vortex look soo much like a Toilet Bowl ready to give you a Swirlie from Hell?!?

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 14:19
#10
Culture's picture
Culture
Hmm

My personal experience with bombs is as Momofuku described. The starting bombs are underwhelming, Initially, I completely wrote off bombs. It wasn't until fighting in the Royal Jelly Palace that a fellow knight laid down an Ash and I saw the benefit. That is when I switched to bombing.

I'm happy to report that most random groups in elite T3 arcade will have some other knights with bombs - be it Ash, Shivermist or DBB. There is even an occasional Nitro or Vortex, something extremely rare back in the day. It just isn't an early viable option.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 18:55
#11
Dirigible's picture
Dirigible
A better question is...

...why even bother? I was a happy little nooblet in the days of 2011, finally playing enough until 2012 to get the old RSS (in my opinion the only "viable" damage bomb for most of the clockworks) and a Glacius, along with the Fiery Atomizer and Plasma Capacitor. I noticed that besides status bombs, bombs were essentially AoE weapons that were somewhat situational but for the most part inferior to guns and swords in every way. They took time to charge, did less damage than a sword swing, and their only bonus was really hitting a lot of enemies at once.

With weapons such as Polaris and the buffed Brandish line available, my use of bombs declined as I didn't get around to completing Bomber Armor (which only offers elemental defense whereas I am convinced that shadow is more useful) and there just didn't seem to be a point anymore.

When I started playing, I got into bombs thinking they could do some serious damage on a comparable basis to guns and swords. Besides the old RSS, no bomb could (and can) provide comparable usefulness outside of status and some situations (greaver swarms, etc.) to swords and guns (on my meager skill level at least). This kind of killed the whole idea of bombing for me (although I still try to use them a lot), seeing as even those stupid Gremlin bombers can place a kazillion and throw them around. What can I do as a bomber? Pretty much fail at dodging while charging, acquire status conditions, get shot, and place a bomb every few seconds to slowly kill/immobilize/inhibit a group of enemies a Glacius could have wiped off the screen in a second.

I like bombs, I really do, but compared to guns and swords they're a whole lot more fun and difficult to use, and a whole lot less versatile. Especially in a game like Spiral where timing and speed are everything, pulling out a bomb to hit enemies is not really worth it when, again, swords and guns have enough range and AoE as is to outclass them in most of my game experience (not arenas, FSC or anything else crowded and not projectile-ridden). Balance between everything is really one of the only issues the game really has that's bad for F2P. Everything else is somewhat reasonable, I think-ish.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 02:22
#12
Awoogawooga
Well, there are quite a few

Well, there are quite a few factors and there are always exceptions, but I'd say the main thing is how players start out and how the game's structure will steer the player into certain directions.

At the start of the game, there really ain't much incentive for a new player to go bombing. The first bombs they receive don't do too much damage, the charge time is quite slow and a new player might not appreciate the benefits of knock back. When you're starting out, the sword not only provides more DPS, but it is more "traditional". As the player progresses, they might find themselves wanting to avoid damage or to take out turrets better, so they'd switch to or add a gun. As they progress through the game, they'll start hearing about the Sovereign Slime and eventually FSC. Sadly, aside from the advice of Shivermist vs Vana, I find people don't really talk about how haze bombs will utterly murder the slimes in Sovereign Slime. Players are nudged toward shadow guns and swords.

Bombs are great, but I think players don't really get exposed to them very much, simply on account that there aren't as many bombers as other types. Nor does the game promote the use of bombs for newbies.

I for one, was really impressed the first time I got a bomber in my party. But it took me a long time to switch to bombing. For several reasons. For instance, I was still working on my guns at the time, and I just couldn't afford to add or switch to bombing, especially back in those days when elevators cost energy.

My recommendation would be to overpower the Proto Bomb, and maybe the early status bombs like the Firecracker etc. Give them really short charge times. Give newbies some incentive to bombing early on. Those of us who've been around long enough to amass a small nest egg can afford to switch, especially since we can farm levels for orbs and crystals. But a newbies can't get into those high pay out levels. Once they've decided on a path, it could take months to get that first 5* set. Changing horses midstream is tough.

Tl;dr, the game doesn't encourage the use of bombs early on. Switching is not a viable option for most. So, overpower the CTR in early bombs to give newbs a taste of what bombing can do for them.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:02
#13
Jashaltris's picture
Jashaltris
It also doesn't hurt that the

It also doesn't hurt that the bomb animations are obnoxious and more than a little obtuse with how much of their graphic gets in front of everything. It's worse than some d-bag spamming polaris at everything (from fuse timer graphic to the actual detonation). Too much visual flash edges me to not really liking the player that's inflicting it on me and feeds the bias against bombing I have to not want to inflict that kind of BS on another. Any weapon's in-game graphics that makes me start spontaneously sympathising with epilepsy-victims needs a hard-look at again IMO. It's more than just the mechanical that relegates bombs to unpopularity.

Haze and Frost bombs are the exception as their graphics are more mild and their effects contribute to directly and immediately reducing the hecticness of combat where they are most applicable.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 01:18
#14
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk

IMO the graphics look breath-taking :D

Tue, 09/17/2013 - 11:48
#15
Awoogawooga
I'm basically a bomb spammer,

I'm basically a bomb spammer, although the bombs I use are Haze and DBB (and Graviton Vortex). I value supporting the party above all else, hence my selection of non-interrupting bombs (except sometimes Graviton Vortex). But I gotta admit, when I'm in a party with other bombers and I'm spamming the DBB while they're spamming their own bombs, I wouldn't be surprised if we're annoying the non-bombers. A lot of times it's a massive light show. Of course, when the smoke clears, the devastation is beeeeeautiful.

Fri, 09/20/2013 - 02:06
#16
Midnight-Dj's picture
Midnight-Dj
Reasons(from a non bomber's perspective)

Reasons why bombs aren't frequently used.
-Bombs ,like guns have pure specielized damage (except nitro and shard) That means they will either be very effective or very ineffective against a mob of enemies. And all knights should hate mobs.
-Attacking with bomb (offensively ) means you will be leaving yourself vulurnable against ranged attacks (gun puppies and howlitzers ) while charging a bomb a knight cannot shield, so basically until you finished charging a bomb, you are likely to be hit and die.
-Bomb performance enhancing gears (all demo suits infact) have only elemental defence, while wolcer coat and gunslinger gears have variants that defend against all 3 types of special damages. The odds are stacked against the bombs once again.
-Bombs are weak against individuals (common sense really ) and it is distracting to both gunners and swordies. Sometimes, during the heat of battle, the cloud of the shivermist can CLOAK enemy gun puppy's bullets and they only decloak when they hit me, it is rediculous... ( bad latency...)
-In LD, bombs can act as good defensive tool, but too many people in the game prefer seeing a massive damage dealt next to their names rather than winning ( skolver clones and tooth picks ) And in a general consensus, more kills = more score, so the utility of bombs in LD is also reduced.
-Bombs aren't meant to be used frequently, they are in fact the last line resort for many non-hellbent bombers. And due to the two weapon limit ( unlocking slots sounds like a waste of CE to me ), many players (who can't afford it) prefer a two weapon loadout (a sword and gun) like in many mordern FPS, you get to carry 2 weapons, (main gun and a pistol in combat arms) Grenade, in many gamers' mind, is nothing more than an 'auxilliary' weapon.
-Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but srsly, what would you prefer? Your knight Avatar holding a long, badas sword OR would you prefer him/her holding a bomb ( a large shard/ iron ball)? The thing is, OOO should come up with some cool redesign for the bombs(they seriously lack in detail comapred to guns and swords), so that they can attract more players.

Fri, 09/20/2013 - 06:09
#17
Sylveon's picture
Sylveon
First pick? Support please!

Bombs are underused because few people like playing support. Bombs excel not in AoE damage, but AoE crowdcomtrol.

Fri, 09/20/2013 - 06:36
#18
Awoogawooga
Speaking as someone who was a

Speaking as someone who was a pure gunner till only a few weeks ago, I can't quite agree with all your assessments. The thing is, bombers are rare. As a gunner, I encountered them very few times, but when they ARE on the team, they're invaluable. While things can look really hectic when you've got a bomber on board, I seldom found myself thinking the cons outweighed the pros. The main exception for me is when you've got a Nitro spammer. Personally, I find swordies to be far worse for me as a gunner, as a swordie is a natural knockback machine, which means that they're gonna make the gunner miss a lot.

Of course, bombers ain't perfect. Small numbers of enemies can take an annoyingly long time to wipe out compared to swordies/gunners. As you've mentioned, bomb spamming can make the screen confusing. Yes, I think the pros outweigh the cons, but I can't deny the cons are there. And enemies like gunpups do make things difficult for a bomber, moreso than for a swordie.

Basically, there are pros and cons to everything. But my main point of contention is the idea that bombs shouldn't be used frequently. That's like saying the sword shouldn't be used frequently, because in a FPS, the knife is the weapon of last resort. In fact, if you had unlimited grenades in a standard FPS, you'd wanna spam it.

The thing with bombs is that like any weapon, the key is knowing when and how to use 'em. Guns are easy because most don't interfere with other players. The biggest exception being Polaris of course. Swords interfere with gunners (and sometimes bombers) a hella lot. While bombs is more 50/50. If the bomber is a status spammer, interference is minimal while a damage dealer is liable to obscure the screen and do unintentional knockback.

In every case, it's a matter of the players being considerate to each other and learning to hone their skills. A Polaris user can be invaluable if he pins enemies to a corner, keeping enemies at bay and they're amazing for taking out turrets. A sword user can be the star player if he uses his superior DPS to take out all the biggest threats, ie the menders and greavers. And bombers can make your life waaaaay easier by utterly annihilating swathes of enemies.

Tl;dr, Bombs are not "worse" or "better" than swords or guns. It's how you use each weapon, be it as a solo or part of a team. The main thing is that SK doesn't really encourage bomb use. They aren't great at lower levels (well, maybe the haze bombs are okay) and they're expensive to get into.

Fri, 09/20/2013 - 11:17
#19
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
I started typing a super long

I started typing a super long post, but long story short, the simple answer is that you have to make bombs work.

That's as simple as it is. You can't just equip a bomb and use it - you generally need UVs or gear abilities, special tactics, etc. Anyone with a polaris can stunlock a turret. Aside from mist bombs, most bombs need special effort to get anything out of them.

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