Spiral Knights - Scorching vs Backfire Barrier

Scorching vs Backfire Barrier

11 replies [Last post]

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 04:29

Rage-Pillows

I don't have any friends who have a level 100 drakon and readily available to do my tests for me... but I don't want to regret any decisions and the wiki's only covers the base.

I want the decision based solely on how useful it is on speed running fsc.

Scorching Barrier vs Backfire Barrier
I'd like someone to solo Vana and do what I did, to test the difference between two fireballs and three. I did this back while I was level 80 something, so 20 more levels oughta be different but I'm not there yet. The test is to solo Vana and get to the mask phase, using no blitz and barrier only. Obviously the backfire barrier won't be too different, but the scorching barrier might provide more dps. My level 80 test was like... 61 damage with 6 ticks = around 366 damage. That's like... one, two sword hits? 68 if poison. It was with no blitz, so the fireballs are likely to hit less when mask is up.

Backfire Barrier sounds nice too. I mean. Swift shoes II with this, I'd imagine it'd be fun even if really short. If the barrier's dps is too low, I'll go for this. Charge attacks are better than barriers anyway in matters of dps.

Also, would anyone happen to know if frenzied firestorm works at all with Vana? I'd rather have someone test it for me and be very sure, then have someone guess it's not. I mean, hey. I thought my barrier would set the mask on fire.

Maybe those two slags? In a team, would it be worth it?

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 08:32

Toeni-Sevan

Hey there!

My pal Xenon-Sntax and I have both barriers and I can tell you my general opinion on the two.

It seems you're gonna use this barrier mainly for the purpose of adding damage in a short amount of time (Burst Damage). I have the Backfire Barrier and it doesn't affect the damage in any way from the normal barrier. My friend Xenon has the Scorching Barrier and although I do not have the numbers (I'll edit this later) I can attest that the damage was slightly decreased per tick.

*Now this is the important part*
You are gonna use this on Vana's mask, which becomes stationary upon dousing. Now the thing is, if you time your movement with the spinning of the orbs, you can keep the orbs in contact. However, you're using a Blitz, so at times you will be stationary. The question will be, how fast is your CTR? Cause if you can go full auto you'll be stuck in place and should use the Scorching Barrier, if you're gonna have a couple seconds to skirt the mask, you can develop the skill to get more powerful ticks. I'll have to do some math later to see how well this compares. It would seem that Scorching Barrier is probably the best if the 1 second of move bonus isn't attractive to you. (I kinda wish it was 2 seconds...but that's another issue).

Frenzied Firestorm gives you a bonus for every monster caught in the blaze...in fact I'll stop there, just use the Barrier.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 09:02

Orbwanter

I tried to count the number of hits Scorching Barrier lands on Vanaduke's mask, but lost track. It's at least twice as many. With it, you lose about 10% damage per strike (which doesn't seem to show against the mask due to rounding,) but hit so many more times that it vastly increases the damage output. The way Scorching Barrier changes the fireball pattern makes the gaps between them much smaller, which means it's a lot less likely for enemies to sit between them and not take damage. If your weapon choice has you spending most of your combat time directly in the enemy's face (Cutters, Rocket Hammer, Brandish/Levi combos,) go with Scorching Barrier. If you mostly use guns, Divine Avenger, Brandish charges, or Blast Bombs, get Backfire.

Vana's body blocks Frenzied Firestorm, so you need to hit his summons or the mask if you want the buff, and the effect doesn't last that long unless you use it on a large, stationary group. I feel like the biggest benefit of that ultimate is being able to exploit the double-attack bug.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 15:00

Noogard

Idk if you've seen this but -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm9-i5Mo_OI
This video shows off Concussive Firebolt, Backfire Barrier, and Frenzied Firestorm for Drakon. As an aside, I have to say I'm amazed at how awesome the improvements of the ultimates are for Drakon.

Backfire Barrier looks awesome. That speed is insane! Idk if MSI affects it but it really doesn't matter with how fast it is. I value utility (and fun utility) more than DPS so it's really your opinion.

The video indicates that Frenzied Firestorm does work on Vana and to a ridiculous degree. I'm not sure what Zeddy means by it not lasting long because it's practically permanent for the duration in the video link at 2 minutes in.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 15:13

Orbwanter

Hm, I was trying to hit Vanaduke from the bottom/side with Frenzied Firestorm and the flame effect wasn't spawning, as if it were hittng a wall or Mecha shield, guess I'll try the top next time and see if it's more successful. My comment about it being short-lived was in reference to using it on his summons, which tend to wander out of the firestorm and keep the buff from refreshing.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 18:31

Rage-Pillows

Math. I'm not that good when

Math. I'm not that good when it comes to simple basic math, but here goes.

If it's at least twice as many... twelve ticks... 60 * 12 = 720... So if I round up to 800... That's about a full brandish combo. Or two hits. Which is... Pretty good. I guess. I guess the real determining factor is two things if we're solely considering the mask.

If you're soloing, does it take two water hits or kill the mask? If I use my sense here, it never takes one blitz charge and one brandish combo to kill elite mode mask. Back before the update, two blitz charges was good enough to move on. ...But I have beaten the first mask phase with two blitz charges and a combo (this took two water balls), so maybe the 800 damage will work fast enough for one water ball.

Or if you're soloing but one teammate's doing the water and if the teammate focuses straightly on water (happens when your teammate thinks you're too pro), does it still take two water hits?

If it only takes one with the scorching barrier, it's a real big thing to consider.

---
I feel the best way to gauge the backfire barrier is to time and solo depth 25. With barrier and without it. Of course, this is probably if you remember to use the skill, and if you're not just spamming it every chance you get. I mean if it can score me like five minutes less in depth 25, I'd really love it.

That guy in the youtube video (thank you for linking that) really likes the backfire barrier. It's hard to control... That... I don't know if he's just not used to it or not. It's clear he's using the mouse to move, but everyone's not gonna be saying it's hard to control you know?

Me, I want to go for the backfire barrier but I'm biased and want good clear fair advice. Even if the advice was wrong, I won't feel too regretful. But the main reason I want to go for it is because drakon's offensive ability will be covered with firestorm in one way or another. I'll be more flexible with pve running if I have this msi boost skill.

Now that I think about it... skills really depend on the gear here for effectiveness, so I'd like the tester to be someone who wears the same gear as I do. Chaos, swiftstrike, blitz, and voltedge.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 20:37

Orbwanter

Got another opportunity to do some testing. Scorching Barrier by itself (water mask, activate Scorching Barrier, stand next to it until just before it explodes, water it again and stand by it until the barrier times out) did roughly 15% of mask's life in solo Elite with an elemental harness equipped. According to the research that I, Zeddy, have done, that should be about 1125 damage? (5000 base health x 1.5 elite modifier)

I still had trouble getting Frenzied Firestorm to trigger reliably by firing it directly at him. Kiting him into it seems a bit more consistent, if it doesn't leave you too out of position to actually capitalize on the buff.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 20:51

Zeddy

@Orbwant- Uh, I mean Zeddy

You should try iron harness and see how that works out on the mask. Considering how low the base damage for the orbs are, it might make a pretty substantial difference.

Makes it pretty meh for, you know, the rest of the dungeon but hey.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 21:41

Orbwanter

Normal harness does 73 per hit to the mask, so I'd guess 1387 damage instead of 1159, assuming my estimate of 19 hits to be correct.

Fri, 09/13/2013 - 21:58

Rage-Pillows

I edited the wiki a little

I edited the wiki a little bit. I don't plan on wearing an iron harness, but that's good to know. If the mask phase does get 1159 extra damage plus blitz, it does sound like it's possible to take the mask phase down with one water ball.

The second mask phase has more hp though.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 07:09

#10

Quaquonfaes

Pick backfire, scorching gives your dragon a godam ugly beard. That's what I am doing.

Sat, 09/14/2013 - 12:00

#11

Rage-Pillows

Hah. Too late. I already

Hah. Too late. I already gave it arms so it's ugly.

I guess I'll be taking scorching barrier. Frenzy's cooldown is too long and isn't suitable for soloing, since a poison vial can have the same effect.

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Scorching vs Backfire Barrier