First of all there are several easy ways to kill chaos. FoV Any type of status gunning, brandy charge or any status move that matter. Also seeing how you need to be able to dodge which is becoming impossible it seems because FREAKIN EVERYONE IS LAGGING. Sk has turned into survival of whoever has the best ping it seems...
Chaos doesn't need to be nerfed.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 09:51
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 10:18
#2
Pretend I wrote something clever here
It's only easy to take out a chaos user (assuming you're talking about LD) if you can survive them getting the first shot off thanks to their boosted CTR, and if the boosted damage of their attack doesn't kill you, and if they haven't bought UV's that negate their status weakness, and if they don't have a bunch of heart trinkets cranking up their HP to absurd levels. If that goes well, than yeah, chaos is easy to deal with. I won't put FoV into the group of anti-chaos weapons, just because it's so hard to get, is relatively weak compared to other weapons, and is just as likely to set you on fire.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 12:09
#3
What the opponents of the Chaos set buff are complaining about are the +2 buffs to both the ctr and damage increase for all weapons. That should not be possible, they proclaim, because previous existing gear conforms to the basic three classes and anything that attempts to go beyond these classes is heresy. I believe the word used is overpowered.
Take the Black Kat Cowl as another example. It has a +3 damage increase as well for all weapons. This is balanced by its rarity and status penalties so there are less calls for a nerf than appeals to make it less rare. Oh wait, that +1 msi is grounds for heresy. File that nerf petition first thing monday.
About the lag, I am pretty sure most of the players with good ping will give you this simple yet effective advice. Get used to it or quit, I dunno, not my problem dude.
With those status penalties and +1 increase in asi, damage and ctr respectively, are the rest of the Kat cowls underpowered or are they balanced?
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 12:47
#4
Chaos got buffed at the same time Black Kat came out. This is no coincidence, as Chaos is very well balanced with Black Kat. A Chaos nerf should not happen without something similar happen to black kat.
It would cause a lot of people getting angry because getting a Kat cowl is a very exhaustive process that requires a lot of grinding or luck no matter which way you slice it. But at least it would be balanced.
Let's compare Black Kat, Kat Hiss and Dread Skelly, shall we?
Dread Skelly:
+4 poison
+4 freeze
low normal defence
high shadow defence
Kat Hiss:
+4 freeze
-2 shock
-1 curse
low normal defence
high shadow defence
+1 bomb damage
+1 bomb ctr
Let's assume that this is a fair tradeoff. In that case, the +4 poison has been traded in for +1 bomb damage and -2 shock and -1 curse has been traded in for +1 bomb CTR
(In the scheme of SK balance, curse is worth a little more than other statuses. See purifier 3 being a 5* perk where other stat resist perks are 4*.)
Now Black Kat:
+4 freeze
-2 shock
-2 fire
-2 poison
-4 curse
low normal defence
low shadow defence
+3 sword damage
+3 gun damage
+3 bomb damage
+1 msi
Okay so, compared to kat hiss...
+1 extra bomb damage by adding -2 fire and -2 poison.
+1 extra bomb damage by adding -2 curse, maybe?
+1 extra sword damage by adding -1 curse and removing one bit of shadow defence.
+1 extra sword damage by removing another bit of shadow defence? I dunno?
+1 sword damage and +3 gun damage from absolutely nowhere. I guess because the cowl is expensive?
I'm not saying anything new here, I believe, when I say that either the regular kat hats are underpowered, or the Black Kat is overpowered.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 12:55
#5
I wasn't complaining just sayin something
And juances, nerfing is the stupidest thing that can be done about 80% of the time. Just buff mad bomber. Anyways Chaos is weak to curse which is all over the place in lockdown. Unless something is extreemly OP with no stebacks at all or it makes you invincible it doesn't need a nerf. This game used to be very challenging, but everyone complained and complaine and whined and everything was nerfed. Wolvers? Nerfed. Chromalisk? Nerfed. Fiends? Nerfed. (but not as much) Also great weapons were nerfed like the Sudaruska,and shard bombs. I am proabably missing out on several other things too. However, It ticks me off hat the Black kat cowl is worse than Chaos. Also Chaos is very terrible when farming most places. I'd like to see someone go through fire without resistant trinkets and/or helath trinks and not die.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 13:02
#6
Curse is still pretty rare in LD compared to other things. The best thing about fighting Chaos clones is that all haze bombs are lethal to them.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 14:52
#7
@Sirius-Voltbreaker
Keep in mind that that was the strongest fire you can possibly get in the game outside of FoV's self-fire, and I didn't even have a vitapod.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 15:11
#8
I don't get you. You admit they removed the fun and challange when they nerfed monsters.
Wouldn't nerfing armors bring that back? :p
"just buff mad" How?
And by nerf I don't mean to take your set bonuses, just remove your raw defense and extra health so you actually die when they hit you.
It'll be challaneging, just like you want.
About LD and curse, it's still a gamble. Someone without chaos can die as fast if a GF catches them by surprise and curses their main weapon.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 15:26
#9
Chaos set now out-does just about EVERY offensive armor set. Yes it sacrifices defenses to do it, but you have the combined offensive bonuses of a full Skolver set, a full Shadowsun Set, a full Mad Bomber Set, with an ADDITIONAL CTR VH for Swords and Guns on top of all of that.
As Lord-Patches demonstrates in his guide, Chaos is just flat out best if you want to maximize your offensive capabilities. Even when you specialize in a single weapon type, Chaos is still one of the best, if not the best armor for it.
Above all else, I'd like to say this: Don't use PvP to justify something that affects PvE! Chaos' performance in LD is NOT an adequate reason to keep it the same (It's not even an adequate reason to nerf it). As far as I'm concerned, PvE should take priority over PvP.
Sat, 09/14/2013 - 20:39
#10
Buff mad bomber by giving dmg
Buff mad bomber by giving dmg bonus for bombs high on each piece. Simple. Bombs are very hard to use (I played with an absolutely nicest ever bomber named Diamondshreddie, and he was going thru gate woth me woth bombs ctr max and dmg max (i think), and he was having pretty easy time, but the bombs required placement and timing and other such stuff.
Mad bomber should have high dmg on each piece. Makes sense. And it could also lose a status or two penalty.
Dmg high on each piece, for the currently sad armor, needs to happen.. And lockdown people cant really complain since there are about 5 total damage lockdown bombers, if that.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 00:17
#11
Mad Bomber is Balanced.
Chaos isn't. The difference between Mad Bomber and Chaos is that Chaos has an extra curse penalty, yet that basically means that you can slap on a Damage and CTR bonus Very High for everything. It's not right.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 13:33
#12
Who can guess that "Seerus-Gamebreaker" doesn't use Chaos?
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 14:39
#13
I actually don't use chaos...
I don't really want one.... But seeing how I am in a lockdown guild I have to get one kinda... but I am only half chaos...
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 14:45
#14
didn't you quit?
Didn't you quit the game, Sirius-Voltbreaker? Why are you still here?
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 14:57
#15
If Chaos isn't overpowered compared to other stuff, why do you 'have to' get it?
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 15:08
#16
@Bopp
He said he was quitting the game, not the community. I don't play Star Legends as much as I used to, but I'm still active on the forums.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 19:39
#17
.
"Didn't you quit the game, Sirius-Voltbreaker?
"
I wish. His posts are terrible and he should feel terrible about them.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 20:43
#18
I think chaos isn't
I think chaos isn't overpowered, but for a different reason. It's definitely one of the better sets, but not overpowered.
I'm going to consider balance from a PvE perspective, because spiral knights is still primarily a PvE game.
Compare it to skolver / vog cub / snarby.
Armor sets protects against two damage types and at least one resistance, except terrible sets like azure guardian (eewww azure).
Wolver line sets give either +4 ASI or +4 damage (to swords) - equal to wearing TWO trinkets.
Chaos gives +4 CTR and +4 damage - equal to wearing FOUR trinkets. This is balanced by the negative resistances to everything.
for example,
If you wore snarby with two CTR trinkets it would give +4 damage and +4 CTR with no negative resistance
If you wore chaos with two resistance trinkets it would give +4 damage and +4 CTR with no negative resistance.
Of course, you could accept having negative resistances with chaos and instead wear heart pendants or ASI trinkets, which is what most people do, but isn't this balanced? It sacrifices defense for faster / harder attacks.
And yes, chaos set's bonuses apply to all weapons instead of just one, but most people are only using one or two weapon types anyway.
Also don't forget that with chaos, you're stuck with normal/elemental defense. If you craft the three wolver lines, you can swap out your equipment and get the damage type appropriate for the mission. The same goes for the gunslinger lines, although I find ASI not as valuable for guns.
It mostly comes down to play style. Some people like to go purely for damage, while others like to have better armor. I consider chaos to be balanced compared sword-user gear. If I'm primarily using swords, I would still rather wear a wolver line set than the chaos set into most levels. I can't speak for gunners because I don't like gunning much myself.
The real problem with chaos is when you look at bomber gear. Chaos provides the perfect bonuses for bombing (where ASI is nearly useless). It makes the mad bomber set useless.
The bomber sets are ALL normal/elemental defense. I have no idea why OOO thought this was a good idea. Bombers are already so rare, why give them a poor selection of armor? There's no choice between defense or high damage for bombers. Bombers all might as well slap chaos on, because they're forced to wear elemental defense anyway. The only other bomber set that interests me is the merc demo set, which could be really nice combined with Swift Steps. I'm making a merc demo set tomorrow :D
So I'd argue that chaos is not overpowered - bomber gear is underpowered and doesn't have enough variety.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:15
#19
"Chaos gives +4 CTR and +4 damage - equal to wearing FOUR trinkets. This is balanced by the negative resistances to everything."
Stopped reading here.
Chaos is equal to wearing TWELVE trinkets because the bonuses apply to all weapons. Mad Bomber is the one equal to wearing four. Even if all you use is Brandish and Blitz Needle, that's still eight trinkets.
"Most people stick to a single weapon type" isn't a good enough argument because it doesn't justify a single armour giving all the bonuses to all the weapons when OOO could've made a "Berserker" and a "Crazed Gunman" armour for the other two weapons.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:16
#20
If you really stopped reading
If you really stopped reading there, you missed a lot of further explanation that you probably needed to see my point.
Even people who use 3 weapon types don't use them equally. I always carry at least one of each weapon type, yet I generally don't wear chaos because I'm still MOSTLY using swords, so I'd rather just take sword bonuses and better defense.
Sure, in theory, it's twelve trinkets, but in practice, it's probably equal to 4-6 trinkets, depending how much you use multiple weapon types.
In theory, chaos looks like by far the best set, but in practice, there are many situations where vog cub / skolver / snarby are just as good or better to sword users.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:24
#21
So you're fine with reverting Chaos and replacing them with a sword and gun equivalent of Mad Bomber then?
After all, it wouldn't even matter according to you.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:37
#22
Actually, yes, I would be
Actually, yes, I would be very happy with that, although I never said it wouldn't matter.
I do think it's silly to have a set that gives bonuses to every weapon type. I just think people are exaggerating how overpowered chaos is, when, if you look around, a lot of (probably most) experienced sword and gun users are not wearing chaos. If chaos was really as overpowered as people say it is, almost every end-game player would be using it.
I also think a good way to 'balance' chaos would be to lessen or remove the elemental defense, making it trade even more defense for the massive bonuses to all weapons, instead of nerfing it's weapon bonuses.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 21:45
#23
Just want to mention, I naturally play half Swordsman, half Gunslinger. Not just a swordsman with a gun, rather one who relies on their gun for damage as much as their sword.
If you think of Chaos in terms of a single weapon, then yeah it's balanced. That's Mad Bomber! However as Zeddy said, it's not just 4 trinkets, rather 12 trinkets. Even if you only use two weapon types, like myself, it's not that hard to get two weapons that benefit from damage and CTR: Brandish + Alchemer, Avenger + Catalyzer, BTB + Blitz Needle, Levi + Volc Pepperbox, and any other combination of the above, and probably more. Not to mention you can pull off dozens of combos with Shivermists/VTs/Vortex Bombs and any high damage charge attack: Brandish, Sealed Sword, BTB, Levi, Sudaraska, Alchemer, and even Antiguas! The only charges you can't really use are the Faust's Charge (Due to how long the charge is, as well as the curse vulnerability), and the FoV's charge (and all you need are fire resist trinkets/UVs).
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 22:02
#24
Even with a hybrid set, it's
Even with a hybrid set, it's still not worth 12 trinkets.
One of my most used weapon sets is actually one that would benefit greatly from chaos. Glacius + Acheron or BTB + Blitz + Shiver. I still don't usually wear chaos because I'd rather trade the bonuses to guns and bombs for much better armor. The simple fact that most experienced players are not using chaos, despite it being very easy to acquire shows that it really isn't that overpowered.
You make some good points. Considering what both of you have said, I'll change my view and say chaos is a little bit overpowered, but not to the extent that a lot of people on here make it sound.
Sun, 09/15/2013 - 22:09
#25
Looking around Haven, most people didn't allow full inspect in the first place.
Those who weren't wearing at least one piece of chaos or black kat either had UVs or accessories on their armour, giving them a sentimental attachment to it. I saw triple UVs, max UVs and even a sleep low. One person was wearing full fallen.
A lot of people don't really care about performance as much as "OMG this armour looks like a wolf I love wolves~". Just because an item is powerful doesn't mean that everyone will get it. You'd be seeing Dark Briar Barrage everywhere if that was the case, but I can assure you that this is not the case. Nor is nearly as many people using Dark Retribution as you see people with Warmaster Rocket Hammers.
Mon, 09/16/2013 - 08:03
#26
Hmm
It is amusing that the community used to complain that Chaos was badly nerfed after Preview. Now that it is essentially fixed, we get to complain about how broken it is. I think the improved Chaos is great, it is an armor people will want to use for certain situations.
Mon, 09/16/2013 - 13:47
#27
I've used chaos before as a
I've used chaos before as melee/bomber, gunner/bomber, and pure melee. I feel it is one of the most risky sets for melee/bomber gameplay because melee are often more vulnerable than gunners while attacking and have to get close. I found that chaos was a much better pure melee set for spamming charge attacks rather than a melee/bomber hybrid set.
As far as gunner/bomber goes it is a pretty amazing combo and it would be impossible to accomplish this type of interesting and fun game play without resorting to the expensive UV system.
In all I feel that the only real hybrid this set supports is the gunner/bomber hybrid and charge spamming to be the most efficient for melee so there is really not much imbalance in comparison to other melee sets.
Obviously, the biggest issue is that chaos makes mad bomber obsolete. MB and possibly the other bomber could use some buffs to make them comparable options for bombers.
Mon, 09/16/2013 - 13:52
#28
@Culture
Indeed the community often contradicts itself but it is not as if it is just one entity rather many with different perspectives and points of view. Even before the Chaos was buffed I'm sure there were a few people that held the opinion that it didn't need a buff.
Mon, 09/16/2013 - 15:11
#29
I think chaos is balanced.
I think chaos is balanced. But it still makes mad bomber in serious need of a fix.
It sacafices defense and has weakness to most statuses in order to give good bonuses.
Using lockdown as an example:
For swordies, the dmg bonus is what helps. The ctr is not very useful for anything but brandishes, and even that is a stretch. The only real benefit of using chaos over birdpoop/snarby is that it is better for gun/sword hybrids due to universal dmg bonus.
For gunners, it doesnt help too much since combos of gunner armor already provide sufficient bonuses.
Bombers get ctr and damage, but also gaun bonus if they use hybrid sets.
What needs to happen is to drastically increase te defense for defensive armors. The payoff one makes in order to gain the offensive bonuses should be greater that it currently is.
Mon, 09/16/2013 - 17:42
#30
Chaos needs a LOW Charge time reduction, Damage, and attack speed increase. Not a medium for CTR and DMG. I feel that having low on all slightly weaker, but also enhances the set's utility.
Mon, 09/16/2013 - 22:07
#31
!
Love the data knowledge Zeddy, keep it up.
BTW, if anyone ever wants to see the full abuse of chaos gear, just watch Ezho play LD.
If youd take away the CTR med or DMG med from everything, it'd still be a viable set of gear. As it is now, it's just ridiculous.
... I like the idea for crazed gunman. Maybe add dmg high to both pieces so we can wear two heart trinkets? I'll take that and the negative status resistance.
Sat, 09/21/2013 - 19:35
#32
Thank you guys!
#Zeddy rocks
Wed, 09/25/2013 - 07:01
#33
-
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Chaos_Cloak&oldid=5635
How about this?
Health bonus +4 (becomes +5 at Level 5)
Charge time reduction: Ultra (all weapons)
Damage bonus: High (all weapons)
Since when did they decide to skin all that low, and then suddenly to med?
I personally don't use chaos so I won't care whether it's getting nerfed or whatsoever. The good players I know have been using chaos since it wasn't that powerful. If OOO just suddenly decides to revert chaos back to original there will be "petition" and rage threads everywhere, much like last year's RSS nerf. Making my Undead VH completely useless on SSS; oh well. Deal with it.
What I know is OOO would have to take consideration if they're going to do anything to chaos:
Revert it and add asi low to everything as well as having damage bonus and ctr low? Well this makes the fallen set useless.
Revert it back to x2 lows? This will definitely cause rage-quitting. (I've seen many triple-max chaos sets and stuff out there)
Add more negative statuses? I guess this won't make a giant difference.
I'll still go with that "fuse time reduction" special bomb-exclusive UV that someone recommended months ago. I'd like to see my BAB go BOOM and create a RED STUNNING SCREEN OF DEATH! Mad bomber right? It's not mad enough!
YAY!
Maybe take away the HP bonus, make is +1 or 2 for each piece so it's actually a glass-cannon?
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/73633
"We appreciate your feedback on these new changes and will be monitoring the response and in-game behavior closely.
The idea with the Chaos set is to create a 'glass cannon' style of play. Before this change we felt that it was more glass than cannon. It's possible the buffs were too much and we'll be, as mentioned, examining the feedback. Other sets that seem 'obsolete' now as a result of this change are being evaluated. Please continue a (civil) discussion."
Indeed, it outclasses every single set in this game. It's like having full snarby+shadowsun+bombastic and in addition CTR VH; no, max on everything.
Side note:
OOO should do something to bomber gear, only elemental defence for bombers? #dasLacist
Also gunner gear: Geese they all look the same, looks like ooo loves swords after all.
Wed, 09/25/2013 - 20:42
#34
completely remove the mad
completely remove the mad bomber recipes from hoh and basil, problem solved :o)
justification?
you won't have a gunner gear with +2 asi and +2 dmg;
you won't have a sword gear with +2 asi and +2 dmg;
you shouldn't be allowed to have a bomber gear with +2 ctr and +2 dmg either.
LOL
Thu, 09/26/2013 - 13:00
#35
Chaos Set
The Chaos Set isn't overpowered like you say it is it provides relatively the same stats as mad bomber.
Both provide:
Low Defense
Status weakness
Specific weapon type bonuses
Although Chaos has a damage bonus that goes to all weapons... It doesn't provide defenses like it's counterparts the Divine Set and the Grey Owlite and Feather gear.
In reality it's the same concept behind the Striker, Bomber, and Gunslinger armors only a lot more emphasized. The idea is whoever wears them will be a glass cannon.
Thu, 09/26/2013 - 13:01
#36
Except you aren't a glass cannon because it has defences and HP like any other regular 5* set.
Thu, 09/26/2013 - 13:06
#37
True...
True but still you could wear this over any other normal 5* and still die more often than anyone else.
And the idea behind a glass cannon isn't you don't have any defense but lowered defense for bonuses to damage.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 02:52
#38
Go equip a Combuster and full Chaos. It's really a case of the best defence being the best offense.
As I already said, Chaos has defence like most other gear. It has weaknesses to statuses, yes, but those are easy to overcome because weapons are imbalanced too. The most offensive weapons are also very defensive. Chaos isn't a glass cannon set until it has defences on par with Cyclops Cap and Fencing Jacket.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:10
#39
*Facepalm
I didnt quuit i wasnt able to play for a while... And i could use forums. And i would NEVER leave this game. My best friend introduced me and i thought it was stupid but then i got addicted. I don't see myy best friend any more becuase he moved to a different town and quit, but i still play this game in his honor. I will play this game to the end.
Fri, 09/27/2013 - 05:17
#40
Well!
@Kamsin That is a strong opinion!
And i know my posts are terrible. I want them to be. If you actually read my other posts, you would see that i want to be the most annoying person on forums. However waffle is beating me.
On a more Sirius note;
I think you are saying my posts are terrible is because we disagree with eachother. So don't annoy me by insulting me. Just leave me alone.
Sun, 09/29/2013 - 02:04
#41
Zeddy never ceases to amaze
Zeddy: I found a situation where my mad bomber set is better than my chaos set
Zeddy: and it doesn't even involve curse
Jakob Krakob: Wait what
Jakob Krakob: How
Jakob Krakob: Is it related to science?
Zeddy: of course!
Zeddy: I'm going through OCH and need no damage bonus numbers for Valiance
Zeddy: but would also like my bombs to not suck
Zeddy: so can't use chaos
Zeddy: but can use mad
Sun, 09/29/2013 - 06:51
#42
I'l leave that here ... http://wiki.spiralknights.com/index.php?title=Chaos_Cloak&limit=500&acti...
So you can look at the evolution of the Chaos set. I joined the game aroud september 2011 and wanted this set one days. Now i want to
KILL IT WHIT FIRE
Sun, 09/29/2013 - 06:51
#43
Lets make a Zeddy apreciation thread
Just for the heck of it
Mon, 09/30/2013 - 02:39
#44
Even though I'm not really a Bomber and I like Chaos Set it definetly needs nerf!
IDK what you're talking about. Something has to change because of...
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Mad_Bomber_Suit
When I look at mad bomber, it is balanced. Chaos is better than mad. If mad is already balanced, then chaos is overpowered.
Chaos needs a nerf.