Spiral Knights - Do people actually like the way Shadow Lairs work?

Do people actually like the way Shadow Lairs work?

21 replies [Last post]

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 10:51

Writhes

To me Shadow Lairs seem like a large portion of content that individuals might only do a few times for gear and just never do them again... I don't know... it just seems like a lot of effort went into a part of this game that people don't really get to experience much and have little replay value.

If there was actually a way to experience Shadow Lairs more without flooding SL gear would people actually want that system more than the current one? I'm not saying they should be spammable like ranked missions but if they could be just a little bit more common such as random tier 3 arcade encounters or perhaps if there would be requirements to access crafting instead of the actual SL entrances...

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:11

Wolfe-Knight

Hmm

I have been wondering sort of the same thing for awhile now. I never felt the need to do a SL because the gear is not very appealing to me and the cost of going is quite a bit. I always wondered what would happen if you only used the key after the boss to go the sanctuary and Unknown Passage. Would more people do a shadow lair then? This way if you wanted the gear you could still get it but if not then you can still do a SL (just no SL mat).

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:31

Bopp

comments

Shadow Lairs have at least as much replay value as any other area of the Clockworks. I think you mean that they cannot be replayed as often as most levels, due to their entry fee? Okay.

Developing Shadow Lairs was probably a nontrivial expense for Three Rings. And players don't play Shadow Lairs much, compared to say Firestorm Citadel or Royal Jelly Palace. You conclude that this is economically inefficient for Three Rings. But keep in mind that the entry fee probably drives some players to buy energy. Removing this entry fee might make Three Rings less money. In this way, the current arrangement may be economically efficient after all.

I'm not really arguing against you. The idea of Shadow Lairs as a randomly accessible feature of Tier 3 seems reasonable to me. But let's try to get our analysis clear, especially as it impacts the finances of the game.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:53

Writhes

@Bopp

"I'm not really arguing against you. The idea of Shadow Lairs as a randomly accessible feature of Tier 3 seems reasonable to me. But let's try to get our analysis clear, especially as it impacts the finances of the game."

There is nothing to really to argue against as I have not really made any suggestions. I can understand how my second paragraph could seem rather suggestive however the examples are supposed to simply give people an idea of what I am talking about. The method of giving players more SL access is irrelevant as well as the facts of OOO's "assumed" perspective of implementation of them rather the point of my post was simply to ask if players enjoyed the current Shadow Lair availability.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:45

Krakob

It's not like it's always expensive to do a SL. They pay a huge amount of pure CR and the material can sell for a lot. If you do one craft there, you're skipping a 5* recipe which otherwise costs 25k. Do two crafts and it's suddenly more cost effective to do SLs than buying recipes. I'm planning on three crafts next time I'm going to a SL!

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:47

Little-Juances

The entry is bad for regular playing, but the rewards are worthy the first time. Hard to balance.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 11:57

Voza-Il

Cost: 1800 CE (146k cr

Cost: 1800 CE (146k cr appr.)

UFSC:
20k payout
15k maidens tear
maybe 10k from all mat drops
Craft 3 pieces: 75k saved
6k (Obviously not immediate value) from tokens
Total of
126k made up at best in your situation. Still a loss.

You would need to craft 4 pieces of SL armor every time in order to "break even." But including SL armor recipe cost isnt really applicable because it isbt given all for free, and you would have to quantize utility gained from armor crafted, and subtract cafting costs from that too.

Cant really say you save 25k and neglect craft cost and mat cost for SL armor. Plus, you need a special material to make each piece, which makes the "savings" of recipes only 10k per.

Math.....

Anyways, SL's arent really replayable for profit. But they arent meant to.

In other news.....NEW T3 BOSS ZOMG

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:02

Niichi

For me the issues before were costs and exclusive rewards.

For the former I'm not entirely sure it still applies. I need to take a proper look at what the tangible returns are now we have elite difficulty and SoLs. 450 energy per knight might allow for profit runs now there have been some significant changes to the game, whereas before I would take losses due to energy revives and the then lower crown/loot gains, since I haven't quite gotten good enough to get through a SL without having to revive.

The latter is an issue because I see very little worth in most of the SL sets. I think Snarbo armour set is probably the best shadow set for swordfighters and I have the armour myself. Merc demo seems like it has a niche use, although I don't think it really fits into any of my current loadouts. In terms of use I just can't help but see the others as either inferior to more common options or just flat out bad.

Of course, I would be all for having them more accessible.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:02

Exerpa

Problem: If you have no plans

Problem: If you have no plans to craft anything at the end of it, then the high cost of entry serves no purpose.

Possible workaround: Make the key a per-player item, make the key craftable using the mat from the sanctuary. The purpose here is to offer a choice between SL gear crafting or a discount for the next run.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:14

Krakob

@Voza

There's a thing you can do called splitting the key cost among four people to not have to pay eightythree pooptons to do a Shadow Lair.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:42

#10

Traevelliath

I don't run SL's for profit, or for gear.

I run them because I rarely get a chance to run them. They are, IMO, some of the MOST fun places in the entire game. They're a combination of what's familiar, and what's challenging in the game.

Also, what Voza-II's math left out is that there are 4 players per SL run. That means it's only 450 CE per person, but still making the same profit per person. *EDIT: Ohai Krakob, didn't see ya there

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:49

#11

Cobaltstarfire

I've only done one shadow lair ever, it costs too much and I don't know two other people to join me and the only other person I play with (the one time I did do it was with 3, but I went on hiatus and my guild kicked me and unfriended me so meh why bother). It was fun, novel, and challenging. At this point it's been out so long that I'd feel bad to try to find people to do it with too, because I'm undoubtedly going to be too much of a noob to be worth allowing to come along.

So no, I don't really like how they work. But I don't think it really has to change, OOO has to make money after all. I would like to get the opportunity to play in them more though or at least to see something new, but I'll never be good enough to feel comfortable going into one with other people. And that's fine I guess.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 12:56

#12

Traevelliath

IDK what you talking about Cobalt, because I find SL's are much more fun with people that don't know what to expect. You really just need one guy who knows what's coming to tell you what gear you need (For example, the main threat in Rabid Snarby is undead, rather than beasts) and to (maybe) tell you what to expect in each room, and you're good. Those are the more memorable SL runs IMO. I still remember taking my friend on his first Rabid Snarby run, but forgot to tell him about the boss(es). Oh man his reaction was priceless :P

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 13:08

#13

Writhes

450ce? Maybe...

Mathematically splitting key costs 4 ways seems like a pretty good way to save but I don't think it's very realistic. It isn't as if there are people with 450 CE at all hours of the day waiting to craft their armor for SL. So... it would take a bit of planning ahead and searching to organize a SL run of that sort.

With all that said cost may reduce ease of access and there are ways around this cost if a player is willing organize a group run but there is still the issue of replayability. There isn't a logical reason for players that have completed their armor to lay down 450CE for participation other than simply to be nice.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 13:22

#14

Bopp

disagree now

Mathematically splitting key costs 4 ways seems like a pretty good way to save but I don't think it's very realistic.

This is how I've funded all of my Shadow Lair runs. This is how most of my friends fund their Shadow Lair runs. This is how I advise less-experienced players to fund their Shadow Lair runs, in numerous forum threads. Maybe it's not what you want to do, but it's quite realistic.

there is still the issue of replayability. There isn't a logical reason for players that have completed their armor to lay down 450CE for participation other than simply to be nice.

I've done all of the Shadow Lairs multiple times. They have replay value because they are a pleasant challenge (compared to the rest of the game). I like going in with friends who've never tried them before, and watching them say things like "omg there's another wave!" Shadow Lairs are fun, and fun is why we're playing this game. I don't know whether that counts as a "logical" reason, but it's an important reason.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 14:24

#15

Dimbreath

If it were for me, I wouldn't

If it were for me, I wouldn't have any issue doing UFSC (The Shadow Lair I like the most) each day. 450CE is nothing, I don't have any issue with that. The issue with Shadow Lairs is finding players that pay the 450CE.

Bopp, do a Shadow Lair with me.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 16:15

#16

Flowchart

You can buy the keys sometimes for around 1600 ce from people who get them in lockboxes (or during the sale from the kat event)

also doing RRT and UFSC are still profitable if you can sell the material for a decent amount (although some days AH gets flooded with them)

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 20:56

#17

Pdtopgun

Still waiting on my first run

I've still yet to do my first SL run, and that's largely because of how they were implemented. With the logistics involved, it's not something that you can just decide to do at random; there's a lot of prep-work that has to take place. You need to rustle up enough Energy depending on how many people you're planning on running with, and you'll want the 4* requisites for what you're trying to craft at Level 10 all set to go. (I've had an Ash Tail set I haven't yet crafted into Vog Cub/Skolver lying around for ages, just in case.) I'd imagine you'll want to get at least one extra material to supplement the drop at the end of the run, especially if it's your first time running, so that's a decent chunk of change on the AH.

The big obstacle, though, is getting a party together. Unless you're in an active guild or have several good friends around your level, there's not really any easy way to hook up with people for a run. The lack of a Party Finder function really hurts things, even though it wouldn't be practical for SLs: you need a competent party to make sure you're not wasting your investment, and there are inherent trust issues with handing over Energy to someone you've never met. I have one good friend who plays the game that I'd trust to run with, and he has another who often plays with us, but I'm not sure if either of us could round up a fourth, so we might be stuck paying 600 each. Even if we could, we live half the planet apart, so scheduling a convenient time to make the run would be an issue.

I really would like to do some SL runs at some point, and I'd love to see the Swarm in action, but as of right now I don't really have any practical way of doing so, which is a shame. I wish OOO could do something to allow more people to experience this part of the game.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 23:42

#18

Niichi

and there are inherent trust issues with handing over Energy to someone you've never met

I can see this as a valid concern. It's not a problem if the people you're running with are established friends or guild mates, but if you're trying to set up a SL run outside of those circles then I can imagine the concern of handing 450 energy over to a stranger in expectation of something after the trade has concluded. Maybe it would be better in this case if the keys were 450 energy each but worked on a per knight basis instead, with the locks only opening once all players in the party have used a shadow key. I suppose that doesn't encourage going into SLs in a full party though.

I wonder what the response would be from SK's support in a scenario like that if someone did take the energy and run? Unfortunately, there isn't really any safe way of doing such a trade.

Sun, 09/15/2013 - 23:46

#19

Fangel

I'd love to try out the shadow lairs more

I don't think the lairs should be more readily available, but rather the keys themselves be a tiny bit more common. Perhaps have them be a very rare prize on the prize wheel (like a mirrored lockbox), or have them on sale more often in the supply depot.

The only run I've been on was a Snarby one, and it was courtesy of a woefully unprepared group of unprepared randoms. There were three of us with no idea what we were getting ourselves into, and it was one if the best experiences I've had on this game. Unless I decide to actually join a guild, I'll be relying on my friends or the goodwill of other randoms for a chance to do that again.
Only bad part is that I've never bothered with wolver armor, so I've just had a nightmare mane sitting around doing nothing since then. It's almost become sprite food several times already.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 05:46

#20

Bopp

procedure to avoid scams

there are inherent trust issues with handing over Energy to someone you've never met

Here is the procedure that my parties sometimes use. We fight our way from depth 18 to depth 23, stocking up on vitapods, pills, etc. At depth 23, the knight with the Shadow Key unlocks the elevator. Then the other three knights give him or her 450 energy each. Then we all step onto the elevator.

With this procedure, it is impossible for one knight to cheat the other knights and gain from it. The worst that could happen would be that some knight would refuse to pay and be removed from the party. That would be annoying --- it might even lead to the trip's being canceled, and the Shadow Key's being wasted --- but even then that knight would not gain materially. In practice, this has never happened to me, because I have active friends and guildies who aren't jerks.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 06:40

#21

Momofuku

It would be nice to have the Shadow Lair levels appear in T3 arcade without the mat or sanctuary at the end. Just so players can run the levels for free (and for fun) without the cost of actually playing the level nor the benefits of the mat or sanctuary.

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Do people actually like the way Shadow Lairs work?