Spiral Knights - Game feedback from a recurring player.

Game feedback from a recurring player.

13 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 06:18

Bogdly

First of all I would like to say spiral knights is a great game. I really think the developers made it very well. It runs on linux and windows, has a nice 3d engine without too much resource usage, plays in a window, etc. The combat system is really good, with dodging, blocking, ranged and melee combat.

Second, I'd like to say this game has great value for money. Most of the mission and content are free. However at some point you will have to spend some money just to get your account validated and to get some energy. Still, the amount mandatory pay is low.

I just came back to spiral knights. I have not played for quite some time - months - perhaps even a year or so, I can't remember.

The first thing I notice is: Nothing has changed. I used to farm FSC, and this is still the best way to get crowns and heat. Energy did get more expensive, so farming is less lucrative. There are no new missions or content.

The only new thing are 'pets' and a new crafting system. After playing around for a day or two I find out that it has become much harder to level and craft your equipment. Am I glad I got most my stuff maxed out. The materials for forging don't drop as much as you need it. And it turns out you can now buy these in the energy depot.

At first I was excited to try out the new pets. Turns out I had to choose one, and buying another one is expensive. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the one that was best for me. Then I started feeding it. After getting it to level 30 I realized I will never get it to level 100 to try the special abilities. Feeding it materials below 5 stars is just not worth it. I ran a lot of FSC runs, but heating a pet simply does not work, it only makes them hungry. It turns out these pets are meant to be a huge time and energy sink. Spiral knights is a fun little game, but I am not going to spend that much time on it just to level a virtual pet. After all, these are just some bits and bites.

Essentially they have added a bunch of new time- and energy gated content. At the same time they removed the 'free' daily energy. Looks like free play has been nerfed. I can understand why a company might want to nerf free play. But when I see no meaningful new content has been added in ages, it makes me frown.

So I could farm FSC for heat and materials, so I become more efficient at farming FSC, to farm more FSC, but I'm not going to do that. Overall I'd say spiral knights is still a great little game, and I hope some day it might actually be going somewhere (other than FSC). Maybe adding a few more rewarding missions and perhaps a couple more interesting bosses to add some variety.

Perhaps spiral knights became a little bit too demanding (and I am not talking about money here). Just my personal opinion.

Have a nice day everyone.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 06:50

Bopp

disagree

linux and windows

By the way, the game also runs on Mac OS X.

Most of the mission and content are free. However at some point you will have to spend some money just to get your account validated and to get some energy.

All of the missions and content are free. You do not ever need to spend money. (If you play through Steam, then you can even get Operation Crimson Hammer for free.) There are many players on this forum who have never spent money, but who have done all of the content, collected numerous 5-star items, etc. It's all free.

The first thing I notice is: Nothing has changed.

The 2013-07-30 update was the biggest update in Spiral Knights history (at least since launch). Many aspects of the game changed. But you are right that there have not been many new big features in the past year: Sprites, gorgonzola fiends, compounds, ...?

Looks like free play has been nerfed.

Somehow you have overlooked the fact that all elevators are now free. You can play this game as much as you want, all day long, without converting any of your hard-won crowns into energy to pay for elevators. This game is more free-to-play than ever.

Of course, I actually agree with you that Spiral Knights could use some new content. But I think that you're overstating the case.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 06:59

Momofuku

@Bopp: You can get Operation Crimson Hammer for free? I thought the only "free" way to do it is to pay someone with energy to buy it for you, but that still involves someone paying real money in order for the exchange to happen. Whereas the major update to the game allowed the game to be fully playable even if energy was no longer purchasable. (Except for unbinding...)

@Bogdly: It's interesting that you mention the whole "not willing to spend time on leveling a virtual pet because it's just bits and bytes" because the virtual pet model is a big hook in the gaming industry (tamagotchis, pokemon, ni no kuni, any monster catching game really). And all of those are just bits and bytes too.

But you touch upon a good point which is that the game has failed to make you "forget" it's just bits and bytes. It's just code and graphics and pre-defined behavior. The goal (and what a lot of the virtual pet games depend on) is to hook you in so deeply that you forget they're just bits and bytes and that they pull you in to having an emotional attachment to them.

The problem is that with the other virtual pet games, the pet is the primary focus of the game whereas it's sort of an optional thing to have on the side in this game. This is because the game revolves (and always will revolve) solely around gear. Out of fear of making the pets overpowered, there's a significant heating cost (either through money and time to forge food, or just time to grind heat altogether--which both impede in the ability to obtain new/better gear) and difficult to obtain skills with long cooldowns.

In the end, they are really just floating trinkets and a place for your extra heat to go when you have fully leveled equipment.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 07:18

Bopp

OCH for free

You can get Operation Crimson Hammer for free? I thought the only "free" way to do it is to pay someone with energy to buy it for you, but that still involves someone paying real money in order for the exchange to happen.

Yes, that is my understanding. I call that "free", because you yourself are not spending any real money. Someone else has to spend real money, but that's no different from the energy system, where you get energy for "free" from someone who spent real money for it.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 08:11

Khamsin

Danger missions are there, but you're right, FSC is still the #1 place to farm which is disappointing.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 09:19

Vesperaldus

Makes me wonder if there is

Makes me wonder if there is technically a more efficient place to farm fro crowns...AND heat... but everyone is so hooked on their past ideals of FSC and are so used to the routine that we as a community cannot look past it being the #1 place to go.

Refine your skills and I'm sure that you can find some other great places. Think outside the box, ya'll.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 09:28

Bopp

data

The guild Lancer Knightz has detailed data on the payouts from almost all missions. Although their data don't include playing times — presumably because times are party-dependent — you get a good idea of how to allocate your time and effort.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 09:35

Vesperaldus

That's some good data... I

That's some good data... I still think it has a limited view however.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 13:43

Bogdly

1. all elevators are now

1. all elevators are now free

Good point, I neglected to mention this. Perhaps it is my memory that is too forgiving, and I just remember the good stuff ;). In the past you had to choose between crafting and leveling with your free energy, because it was not economical to do both. Now these are no longer mutually exclusive.

The problem, however, is that crowns can be farmed without costing any energy. In the past there was a fixed ratio between energy and crowns: To get crowns you have to spend energy, and each player only gets 100 energy per day, but beyond that farming is automatically limited. It was not very economical to farm crowns with energy that you bought from the market, so players simply did not do it as much. Now that crowns can be farmed without ever spending energy this limitation is removed.

Because players also need more energy now to level up their gear, which is the main point of the game, there is more demand for energy. Higher demand combined with more crown farming means higher energy prices. Higher prices mean people will need to farm more... leading to higher prices. This will then in turn give incentive to some people to buy energy with real money.

In the end the free players are all loosing out. The market is competitive. It does not matter if you can get more crowns if everyone else can also do this. In fact, you are now forced to farm more if you want to keep up with the competition (= higher energy prices).

It is very possible that I am overstating this. It will require more testing to see how dramatic it is.

I expect energy prices to keep rising at least for the time being. The game will try to figure out what the rate is at which people start buying energy with real money. If not enough people are buying energy with real money prices will go up. It is a different equilibrium as before.

2. reviving

I also forget to mention this. In the past you could use health to revive others. This has now been nerfed to a cash shop item. I can't remember how often I had to revive noobs. Now, I don't even want to revive anyone anymore, since it just costs me energy (or about 770 crowns per revive now). If you are helping someone and you have to revive him once or twice, then you are loosing money on the run. I think this is a free to play nerf (not to mention this is asocial behavior). I already had several people begging me for a revive, and then they left the party when they could not get one. In the past the party could stay together and share health.

3. The problem is that with the other virtual pet games, the pet is the primary focus of the game.

An often seen complaint on the forum is people wanting to buff their pets. I have seen many suggestions about buffing drakon, buffing the defensive pet beam attack, and so on. It would be fair to say that pets are a bit underwhelming, at least in some aspects. The most use for them is the (rather good) passive bonus you can get from the perks. But it requires a close to level 100 pet to be somewhat noticeable.

Personally, I find it annoying that you cant use the pet's abilities while charging, and that your character needs to do a little animation when using the pet's active abilities. It makes combat less smooth.

4. The guild Lancer Knightz has detailed data

And the data confirms that FSC is objectively the best payout. This is pretty much common knowledge by now.

I would like to thank everyone for all their thoughtful comments.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 13:44

Bopp

yes, but

And the data confirms that FSC is objectively the best payout. This is pretty much common knowledge by now.

Yes, it is common knowledge, but that's a shallow reading of the data. The data also show that Legion of Almire pays almost as much. The data also show that lots of missions have payouts over 1,000 crowns per level. So, while FSC has the highest payouts, it's not as if you simply must run FSC over and over again. You can do some other missions, essentially trading some crowns for some novelty, to keep the game fun.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 14:00

#10

Thegreatpiggy

Here we go again.

"Nothing has changed. I used to farm FSC, and this is still the best way to get crowns and heat. Energy did get more expensive, so farming is less lucrative. There are no new missions or content."
Nothing has changed? Well, I don't know how to respond to that unintelligent opinion. Energy is more expensive, yes, I understand your concerns of something that isn't very important to the game anymore, bravo. FSC is still the same? What did you expect? There are no new missions? I'm not even gonna bother saying anything about that........................

"The only new things are 'pets' and the crafting system"
/laugh

"Feeding a pet does not work, it only makes them hungry"
Understand a system before you, erm, "criticize" it. -Anyone but TheGreatPiggy

"At the same time they removed the 'free' daily energy."
I know, I'd be mad if a free system was replaced with an even better and backed up one.

So, yeah.

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 14:53

#11

Mickmane

What game are you talking about?

Free play nerfed!? However did you get that impression?
ELEVATORS ARE FREEEE! I can play as many levels as I like.

The only thing I'd like on top of that is more shortcuts to more levels I like to play in Stratum 6. A whole T3 run leaves me braindead, and if I'm playing alone; glad it's over.
(I hope the newly announced features include something in that direction.)

I guess I know where you get that funny idea though; farming. Well, if all you want is get most of X in minimum amount of time, that's entirely your decision. I suggest just playing the game.
The only reason I mostly go where I can get Radiant Crystals quickly (not FSC, that'd be tedious) is that I have a pile of mostly costume gear that I decided to heat for the chance at Forge Boxes. That's my own doing. Once that's done I will gather whatever I may use in the future as I play (the way it's intended, I guess).

I wasn't thrilled at the prospect of Sprites, but turned out to happily blow crowns on my companion.
I happily blow Energy on Elite Orbs, still cheaper than crafting used to be. (Optionally Simple Orbs too. Those two kinds are somewhat harder to find.)
If Fire Crystals had a better price/amount ratio, I'd happily blow Energy on them too. As it is, I just get them from boxes. There's no rush, after all. There never was.

I'm FtP on my end of the keyboard. (Got OCH and Guardian Pack via Steam Gifts.) I'm looking into a way to change that (I have no online money), not for getting anything offered for real cash, but to support the game that has given me near 21 months of fun by now.

Free Elevators even beats the HoH as best thing since sliced bread, though the latter remains a close second. (And I make most of my money selling recipes; a service to the lazy I call it.)

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 15:15

#12

Mickmane

You posted again while I was typing...

Energy prices, I expected what you are saying. It's not happening. The price is stuck someewhere around 8k (+/- ~300cr, depending on if there's a sale).

Reviving, the new way's better. I die a lot less when with company, on Elite at that.
I die a lot when playing alone, and can use up a fraction of my pile of Sparks or just start over.
Danger Room used to be, ooh, let's better not. Now it's, what the hell, 10 Sparks won't kill me. (Some may say being reckless because I have Sparks will prevent me from getting better. I'm playing for >1.5 years now, I am not getting any better. /me is proudly the worst player ever.)
As long as most of the time I'm going where I don't die, or just start over, reviving full Hp is 100% free. Sparks just pile up to use when going to dangerous places.
Friend of me used to revive and tab me a lot on Mist he didn't use much. Now he gets it all back! I happily use Sparks on him or any other friend.
People who beg you for revives could go where they don't die that often. Going into places they're not prepared for (with gear or Sparks) is their doing. (And I'd revive someone who listens and isn't reckless anyway, if I decided to help some stranger on a Mission they need to do.)

Don't expecct a Tier 1 Sprite to be all that much help in Tier 3...

Mon, 09/16/2013 - 18:58

#13

Pdtopgun

@ Bogdly

Your points there are kind of glossing over some important particulars on how the new system works:

1) As someone pointed out, Energy prices have remained fairly constant over the past few months, both before and after the big update. I've been spending somewhere around 7,600 CR for 100 myself. The main reason for this is that, by and large, energy is no longer needed for pretty much anything on a daily basis. The elevators are all free now, so that cost is right out. You use Sparks of Life to revive, so there's no direct energy cost that piles up the more you have to do it. And most importantly of all, the massive personal Energy sink of crafting is now accomplished by objects that can drop in the course of playing, so you never have to spend a dime in order to progress your gear. (Yes, while you can buy Orbs from the Supply Depot to speed things up, you don't have to.) I think I've crafted more 5* items over the past month or so than I did over the previous year under the old system. Hell, if anything, I have more 5* Orbs than I can actually use at the moment; I'm having to do lower-tier runs to pick up 3* and 4* ones.

2) Again, much like Orbs of Alchemy, Sparks of Life drop in-game, so you don't have to spend any Energy at all in order to revive yourself or someone else. (I admittedly miss health-based reviving, though.) If you're a semi-competent player on Elite difficulty, you're most likely earning more Spark drops than you're burning in revives. If you are dying more than you're finding Sparks, then bump things down to Advanced or Normal. If you're still dying too much on Normal...well that's honestly kind of sad, and you should probably go back to a lower tier until you can hack it better.

Literally the only things I've spent Energy on over the past month are a few Danger Room doors in the Clockworks. Even if the prices do spike a bit, 100 Energy can get you a very long way.

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Game feedback from a recurring player.