Okay so its been a month now since ive had an interest in gunning. but the fact that its impossible for me to gun and not use swords is kinda making me lose interest. My guns are AP, supernova, blitz, and a soon to be biohazard. I just want tips and tricks on gunning and maybe if you have the time, invite me to your guild training hall place and show me face to face on how. Gunning seems pretty cool and the only gunner armors or helms i have are shadowsun stetson and chaos cloak. I have a swifty obviously because its op. Please reply, ive already read the wiki on gunning
Gunning help?
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 16:48
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 17:14
#2
Traevelliath
Alchemers. not MY best friend. I have a cryotech and a voltech 2 stars and i try doing switch alchemer but its hard
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 17:26
#3
I would of been VERY surprised if you did NOT hate the 2* and 3* Alchemers. It wont be until 4* at minimum before they start feeling alright. At 5*, a single charged shot with decent bonus damage can insta-kill SEVERAL enemies at once.
Alchemers are absolutely TERRIBLE at the lower star versions, but you just gotta wait until 4* and 5* before you make your final judgement on them. Honestly, I've never met a pure gunslinger who doesn't use Alchemers. In addition, you don't need weapon switching to effectively use Alchemers. Anyone who tells you otherwise is being a narrow-minded and conceited ***CENSORED***.
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 18:01
#4
@Traevelliath
Well thats something hard to decide on. I dont want to craft 2 alchemers and then never use them, Gunning seems like a fun thing, but Im also trying to find inspiration about gunning. If i could find someone that successfully did a SL with a gun-only party or something near that, it would definitely motivate me to gun
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 18:59
#5
Hmm
Traevelliath covered it quite well, alchs become your best friend very quickly (that is once you get them to 4*, or even 3* for some). A alchemer rewards skill with higher damage and not many other weapons do that. By skill I mean the use of the rebound shots which can and will be devastating once you figure out the pattern.
Alchemers are good no matter what you focus on, be it attack speed, CTR, or damage. CTR turns a pew pew gun into bazooka (no really, it turns a crowd into a pile of crowns and heat). Attack speed make alch switching easier, though it is hard it can be rewarding in the long run (I will go over this below). Damage is always nice, not much to talk about here.
Alch switching is quite a thing to learn but can be helpful for those who would rather move around instead of the stationary charge attack. The way I learned how to switch was to spend time in the training hall with 2 alchs and a swiftstrike. The way I learned was to shoot>shield>switch>shoot>etc. As Traevelliath said this is not required (I prefer to charge spam, good with my vortex bomb) though it is all up to how you play.
I may not be the best gunner (only have 4* alchs, my "heat all the items!" attitude slows me down a bit), but if you want to see how Alchs work hit me up ingame. I have got switching down pretty well (to the best I can do) so I can show you that or how charge shots work on groups.
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 19:03
#6
Erm...
I have done pure Gunslinger SL runs. I've even done a run with Happyapathy, who's probably the most devoted pure gunslinger I've ever met. My first SL run was done with a bit of Nameless, a Callahan, a Blitz, a Polaris, and a 4* Blizzbrand (so technically it's not a pure gun loadout).The only place a pure gun SL run doesn't work that well is Shadow Lair IMF, because Alchemer bounces tend to flip switches crazily.
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 19:07
#7
@Traevelliath
Wow! that sure says alot, i wouldnt really worry about IMF SL because its kinda like the normal one but harder and fire is added. As long as UFSC is completable, thats all i would want to hear, You think you could teach me some lessons about gunning privately via game?
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 19:18
#8
Honestly, gunslinging isn't really easy to teach. It's really hard to pin down (or write down) how you exactly get your Alchemer Charge Shots to reliably insta-kill groups of enemies. You can't really explain how to master the shoot-shoot-pause-shoot-shoot rhythm for Pulsars. There's no real way to tell a person how to position yourself to unleash your Blitz Charges safely in every situation. No matter what you read or whoever you speak to, you're not going to learn Weapon Switching...
... unless you simply try it. So that's my advice. You don't need two Alchemers, but at least get one 4* Alchemer. Get like a 4* Prismatech Alchemer and take it to FSC a few times. If you like it, upgrade it to 5*, and maybe even craft a second one. If not, leave it in your inventory and move on to like bombing or something.
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 19:23
#9
@Traevelliath
Ive mastered the shoot-pause-shoot-pause thing, as I am a swords/guns hybrid. Shouldve mentioned that I guessed?
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 19:32
#10
Still...
A lot of SK now that I think about it cannot really be written down. Even if it is, just reading it wont really help you. My advice is still just to go out and try a 4* Alchemer. You don't need two and you don't need to worry yourself about weapon-switching. From there, you can decided how much you want to invest in gunslinging.
Wed, 10/02/2013 - 19:38
#11
@Traevelliath
Alright then, I'll do that. i wouldve picked prismatech because i would rather choose higher dmg than status unless im in LD
Thu, 10/03/2013 - 02:57
#12
To me, guns are "boring but
To me, guns are "boring but practical/reliable". You have a AP, so I assume you've found that to be the easiest to use? The thing with guns is, it's all about flanking and kiting from a safe distance. Always being on the move. Getting the right positioning and so forth.
Judging from what you have thus far, I'd suggest an Alchemer, perhaps an Umbra Driver, so as to cover all your damage types. I used a 3* Shadowtech Alchemer MkII for a very long time 'cause at the time, it was sufficient for farming JK.
Personally, it was a heck of a lot easier switching weapons before the new GUI. Now it's kinda annoyingly unreliable whether you'll switch weapons when you need to. I dunno about this whole shoot and shield and shoot or whatever. For me, the most important thing is just to dodge and run to a position that's safe and effective.
Sure, there are tricks to the trade. With Blitz for instance, you'll want to bait enemies so you can shoot them at point blank with a charged shot. If there's a lot of them, you might want to whittle down their HP with a charged long distance wide shot. Alchemers can OHKO certain enemies with their charged shots, and you'll want to always aim at the guy on your right, even if he's further away, so the ricochets might bounce to the ones to the left. That sorta thing, but when you get down to it, being a gunner is a lot of being a dirty, lowdown, backstabbin', side shootin' coward.
Thu, 10/03/2013 - 03:58
#13
"You can't really explain how to master the shoot-shoot-pause-shoot-shoot rhythm for Pulsars. "
That's really easy to explain, actually!
- Hold down your attack button until you see your charge bar.
- Release.
- Repeat from step 1.
You may have to wait a little bit longer if you've got a little ASI, but that's basically the pattern with low amounts of ASI going.
Thu, 10/03/2013 - 04:57
#14
If you needed inspiration, I was inspired to learn how to switch-shoot after watching this.
Thu, 10/03/2013 - 05:08
#15
An alternative
As one of the few people on the forum who doesn't use alchemers, I have a few points to make. Alchemers are certainly strong, but in my opinion they're also very dull. If you find using your AP tp be a more enjoyable experience, then go ahead and do so.
Armorwise, I'd suggest you get a nameless set, as most guns will benefit more from the boosted ASI then the damage bonus (especially if you use match damage types), and elemental dealing constructs are the family that's the most threatening to gunslingers.
If you have the resources, a Magnus might be worth looking into. I've been having fun with mine, and while it's by no means a blitz, it does have it's own niche role (I've found it very useful for keeping targets knocked down or stunned, something th blitz doesn't do very well).
Finally, you might want to get a polaris and neutralizer instead of the superior and biohazard. Both are nice enough guns, but the lose a lot when compared to their alternate forms. Pepperbox, valiance, and neutralizer will be better sources of normal damage, and the biohazard just doesn't deal out damage fast enough. Save build them until you've got the rest of you're arsenal in order.
Thu, 10/03/2013 - 15:21
#16
Mentioning that it's "impossible for [you] to gun and not use swords" kinda makes me take interest, because my experience is much different. I started out using a sword and gun together, but ended up being nearly a pure gunner because, as I got a better feel for how to use my Autoguns and (Tier 3) Alchemers, I started feeling crippled when using a sword. Sure, knockback is handy for when things get messy, but at those times I find it much easier to find safe openings for Alchemer pot-shots than for sword swings. I think this has a lot to do with my not using mouse to move; it makes a stupendously huge difference in what is and isn't practically possible when shooting sideways or backwards while running is a trivial thing. I feel more like I'm controlling a remote-controlled tank rather than a little humanoid character. You might want to let us know whether you use mouse move or independent movement and aiming, and ask specifically for tips from other players in the same boat as you.
Yes, Alchemers are late-bloomers and even after you get them to 4-star there's still a need for firsthand experience to get a feel for how to best hit with them. There's much more to it than just the number of times the shot bounces: the projectiles get much faster and reach farther, while the charge attack gains more submunitions and grows enough to cross several one-hit-kill thresholds.
I dunno whether you're more interested in just specialising in guns, just mixing them with other types, or doing both, but FWIW there's good reason Blitz and Nova/Storm are the go-to weapons for so many gunners; the two types complement each other uncannily well, the combination letting you "have it both ways" in terms of a lot of important tradeoffs, to say nothing of Alchemers' ability to reach around barriers that nothing else can get around, or Blitz' ability to flinchlock a whole bunch of Fiends spread across a wide area. They're also both very powerful all the way from shield-bumping range out to their max ranges, which means you can have the cake of similar range profiles on both weapons so as to position yourself to best leverage both of them, combo them, etcetera, while eating that cake by not having a dangerous range band where both of your weapons are weak.
That ability to have an answer to any situation doesn't even stop there; at least if you can aim and move independently, the Alch lets you remain maximally mobile for any gun or sword, while dealing max DPS for options within that strict limitation, and the Autogun lets you get the most out of an opportunity to hide behind cover long enough to charge up a weapon. The Alchemer's charge attack and Autogun's uncharged attack also end up being useful intermediate options for best leveraging intermediate-sized opportunities like having an opening wide enough to pause for a heavier attack but not enough to charge a weapon, and having cover to hide behind but not being able to expose yourself long enough for a Blitz or Pepper volley. Sure, you could just get a Normal Pulsegun and any pushy sword and have a very solid defensive stance for any situation, but the Pulseguns are at an awkward intersection of "boring for most experienced players" and "solo-only for most newbie players," and the addition of "Elite" difficulty mode raises our standards for adequate damage.
Thu, 10/03/2013 - 17:32
#17
Thanks everyone!
Thanks to everyone that gave me this great advice and information. Today I crafted myself a Prismatech Alchemer mkII and found myself loving alchemers. The fact that the alchemer's damage at level one was 56 (At Ironclaw munitions Factory) dmg points, it was outstanding, considering that my AP did 54 dmg points. But the peacemaker had 6 bullets per clip and alchemers had 2 per clip. Still, I learned how to use the alchemers, and when trying it out in the training hall, accidentally found out weapon switching techniques! Alchemers are no doubt fun to use with the bouncing of the bullets. Well, once I get nova driver, I will probably work towards a umbra driver, because gunning is fun! Thanks guys!
Fri, 10/04/2013 - 06:40
#18
@Leek
Wow, that makes me want a Callahan...that combo of it with shock alch seems to be a pretty good anti-fiend set up for gunners, with for chances of shock and stun to slow down greavers. (Although, I find that Polaris is pretty good against Devilites.)
Fri, 10/04/2013 - 13:48
#19
I prefer a Blitz for Fiends, but have had half a mind to try to carry good switch-shooting weapons so I'm more likely to practice a bit. I'm very pleased to see a Magnus put to very powerful use.
I was going to get Hail as my next Elemental weapon, but have changed my mind and will get Nova instead, in large part because my needler is so jealous of how purdy the Callahan and Storm look together.
Fri, 10/04/2013 - 14:30
#20
@Geosmin
You can use a blitz on devilities but using a callahan is a much safer weapon against them I would always use my callahan on them but for trojans you must have a blitz
Fri, 10/04/2013 - 16:15
#21
I've been finding my Alchemer to be much, much better than my Magnus for safely handling Devilites. My Magnus still dealt noticeably more damage per hit than my Shock Alchemer when both weapons were at same star level, but not nearly enough to make up for slower fire rate, so _effective_ DPS isn't different by enough for me to be sure which one is superior. Magnus may flinch them, but alchemers are much more nimble, can fire around cover, have better charge attacks for Ninja-kills, and there are options for Shock and Freeze.
I've compared 4-star, fully heated Spike Shower, Dark Thorn Blade and Strike Needle against each other and in combination with various Elemental weapons, and the Needler is the one I chose to upgrade to 5-star first because it's part of the best solution I've found, which is why I recommend that pairing. Ironically, I think Callahan would be the more _offensive_ choice, since it looks like the most natural Pierce weapon for switch-shooting, which is more about boosting DPS than adding options for different situations that can come up.
Sat, 10/05/2013 - 22:49
#22
For swordsman or gunner, I'd strongly recommend Valiance in PvP or PvE. It's not necessarely the best for FSC, but generally everywhere else (especially LD) it's very useful.
Alchemers are good, but they have the shortest range of the guns. Switch shooting with them sure is pretty, but personally I've been more a fan of the single shot-stay alive concept rather then the barrage of bullets. Also, Alchemers have to get in close and personal to abuse the status. Another gunner with a Valiance of an Antigua line would have the advantage since they have 1-2 tiles of range and more percision (they don't have to lead their shots as much).
There are a few gunner highlight vids on my page that show some scenerios on what to use when if you want some visual examples, but the beauty of the system is that there is a such a wide variety of playstyles you can choose from. Eventually you'll find one you lean on heavier then others and roll with it when you need to get serious.
Good luck!
Sat, 10/05/2013 - 22:51
#23
@Blueflood
thanks for the tips, by page do you mean youtube page, if so whats the channel?
Sat, 10/05/2013 - 23:30
#24
youtube.com/damon180
There are a bunch of commentary videos there, but I put together a few gunning montage videos called Gun Fun (1-3) if you don't want to hear me talking while hyped up on coffee :)
Sun, 10/06/2013 - 15:38
#25
@blueflood
okay thanks. I will go check it out now.
I got one word for you: Alchemers
If you want to be a gunslinger, the Alchemers will be your best friends. They're a bit irritating and annoying in their younger stages, but once you get to the 4* and 5* versions and you can get used to their odd quirks, they will serve spectacularly. I personally love charge spamming my Alchemers with a Perfect Mask of Seerus, but others prefer weapon switching shenanigans.