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How about a Halberd?

29 replies [Last post]
Mon, 10/07/2013 - 07:53
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox

Here's an idea I've been mulling over for a couple weeks, but never really made an actual suggestion out of it. As you may or may not know, Halberds are basically a combined spear and axe. They were fairly cheap to produce and were highly versatile in combat. They have a spear blade at the end of the shaft, an axe blade on one side of it, then a catch hook on the other for pulling cavalryman off their horses. (though that's not really useful from the gameplay standpoint you might say, but I'll get into that later) It also has metal rims down its shaft to block blades, giving it a bit of defensive capability. A skilled halberdier could be as deadly as any other weapon master.

Now, let's get down to what you guys really want to hear, or might not want to here. This is obviously a two-handed pole weapon, so shields wouldn't be all that useful with it. Before you guys all form a lynch mob to come after me, notice how I said that it has the rims along its shaft? You would still be able to block using it, but against melee attacks, not projectiles or explosions. Or, you could possibly have your shield on your back, giving you additional defense there as well.

It would do normal damage for swings using the axe blade, piercing for spear thrusts. For its moveset, I'm suggest a little something unique here. Simply using the attack button with it would make it swing broad strokes using the axe blade in around 50 degrees, having a longer reach than swords, but wouldn't do much damage if it made contact with an enemy with the shaft instead of the blade. These attacks would do a lot of damage, but nothing spectacular. Holding your shielding key while using your attacking button/key will make you do piercing thrusts using the spear blade. This will provide a bit of knockback, and will have a range almost double that of a flourish.

For the charge attack, this is where the catch hook comes into play. Upon releasing the charge, you will grab the target you're currently locked onto or the one that the attack would land on, and force it against the ground using the catch hook and pole as leverage. This will do some damage, but the main point is to make it completely vulnerable to attack from your teammates. While it's in this unfortunate state, it will be incapable of moving or attacking. If this is implemented, which I doubt, they would probably just give it a frozen animation instead of it against the ground. This cannot apply to all enemies, either them being too large or too small, in which case, it will do a moderately high amount of normal damage. Obviously, this makes it more of a team-based weapon, as pole arms should be.

Completely open to criticism and suggestions for how the star-forms would be named or any changes to its behavior. I would make some art to show you what a Halberd looks like, but I have the artistic talent of a rock and will spare you the torture.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 08:17
#1
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir

Does shielding work like T3 gremlins? They can block from one side but not from all?

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 08:17
#2
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
@OP

Two-handed style is not something that fits with the style of Spiral Knights.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 08:23
#3
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
Insert witty quote here.

To Canine-Vladmir: I would imagine so, though it would still have shield health while on your back.

To Khamsin: And why is that? Knights have used two-handed weapons in the past, nobody was forced to the shield/sword combo. I can't see why Spiral Knights would be any different. Pikes, spears, pole-arms, things of this nature, were practically mandatory in many conflicts. I understand that nobody wants to be separated from their precious shields, (Oh, the horror of it all!) but you could still block with them, just simply turn around. It would actually help a lot in this circumstance, since pole weapons would likely have slow-ish attacks, and people using the full combo of heavy weapons in the game are easily flanked and vulnerable on their back.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 09:35
#4
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
@Dementia

Even the heaviest of heavy weapons in this game are wielded 1-handed. It's just the style of the game.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 09:44
#5
Waffleconecake's picture
Waffleconecake
this is a game set in the fueture, screw the past.

Don't bring the past into this to reason why weapons should function a way. If you haden't noticed the only real connection to knights of the past in this game are swords, sheilds, and the name of the game.

If you want to make a sword that can sheild then make it a weapon that would need a sheild to work well.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 09:49
#6
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
True.

But pole weapons are different from swords. They need to be manipulated with both hands in most cases to be effective. Sure, you can use one with a shield in the other hand, but it will be greatly reduced in speed, stopping power, and leverage, all of which are needed when handling pole weapons. Using one with one hand breaks the immersion and flow. Besides, I'm trying to suggest something fresh, something new here.

To Waffle: It might be set in the future, but in the future of any reasonable society, melee weapons would be disregarded. That is obviously not the case here. Spiral Knights are both old-fashioned and futuristic, I don't see anything wrong with a weapon that works and would fit in with the knight theme.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 10:01
#7
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
@Dementia

"Using one with one hand breaks the immersion and flow. "

Trioka lines haven't already done that?

"To Waffle: It might be set in the future, but in the future of any reasonable society, melee weapons would be disregarded."

There are plenty of reasons why future soldiers might use melee weapons. Melee weapons generally don't require supply lines to continue to operate. Projectiles might be defeated by future armor or shielding which melee weapons might be able to overcome. Melee weapons can be used in all sorts of environments, whereas projectile weapons can jam up. Melee weapons can function more effectively in tight corridors than guns can for the most part. Melee weapons generally don't have stray shots that could set something off accidentally or puncture a hole in a ship.

The list goes on. There are plenty of justifications for melee weapons.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 10:07
#8
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
To Khamsin:

That may be the case, but no first-world army these days would use melee weapons on the same level they would use guns and bombs. It's just not very practical or safe. Sure, there would be bayonets, knives, shovels, hand axes, all sorts of things to be used in such a fashion, but swords? Fencing Foils? Warhammers? Physical shields carried on an arm? (there are riot shields, but those are not often used in full combat, let alone nowhere on the scale that knights of old did) Full body plate armor? No, of course not.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 10:15
#9
Little-Juances's picture
Little-Juances

Things like divine avengers and flourishes are used in 1 hand and kill pretty fast already.
There's no real incentive to go 2-handed when monsters die in 2 hits using a BTS.

It is different, it looks cool but meh, what for? poke vanaduke?

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 10:29
#10
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
It's a two-handed weapon.

It will obviously have far more power behind its swings with the greater leverage and strength of two arms. Its charge attack will allow for greater team coordination. Its spear thrust will be far more damaging than a Flourish thrust, more weight behind it, a farther reach, and the axe blade can be used almost immediately afterwards. A halberdier could easily beat the living daylights out of a sword-equipped knight given equal footing.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 12:55
#11
Its-Some-Secret's picture
Its-Some-Secret

If this is implemented into the game...

Brandishes, divine avengers, Gran Faust, will become underpowered
(Not the polsaris, as it's a side arm)

I like the idea personaly +1

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 15:17
#12
Arkate's picture
Arkate
...

If you're going to refer to the history of Halberds, at least mention why they were created. But since you have failed to, allow me; Halberds were pikes with an axeblade on them designed to allow footsoldiers to deal with mounted knights, by pulling them off with the hook, and cutting them up with the axeblade. SK does not have mounted knights. Therefore, the knights would have never invented Halberds. Also, I think a magnus or callahan could suit that role nicely.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 16:27
#13
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
To Arkate:

Hey, at least I'm trying here. Also, while Halberds were originally made for that purpose, they are not restricted to it, just the opposite in fact. While they may be best against cavalry, only the catch hook on the off-side of the weapon was made specifically to deal with them. An axe blade is an axe blade, a pike is a pike. Halberds are still some of the most versatile pole arms out there, as well as one of the more highly-acclaimed. They're used by guards of the Vatican for pete's sake. It's a better suggestion than people going "Herp derp, I want a scythe because they're cool!" without actually realizing that scythes are terrible weapons in general used by the poor when things actually made for combat were unavailable to them. The Halberd was a real weapon used by infantry of respected armies and has the reputation of being reliable, versatile, and deadly, not to mention relatively cheap to produce.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 18:00
#14
Arkate's picture
Arkate
Might I point out that

Might I point out that Cavalry is mounted. Yes, scythes are very unwieldy farm tools. Infantry used halberds to counter cavalry charges. The Vatican use them because of tradition. I like Halberds. There is just no way at the moment to merge Halberds into the loose backstory of SK. Why would they need halberds if they have knockback weapons like the magnus line and polaris? And against cavalry, we have guns. Halberds were real weapons, and much more effective than scythes would have been. If SPEARS AND HALBERDS were added together, then it would make sense. They would balance each other in PvP, and you would have some sort of a way to make it seem like there is a reason for them to exist.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 18:29
#15
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
Magnuses are guns. Polarises are guns.

They require different strategies entirely to employ and utilize. Not to mention, different gear sets entirely. It would be nice to give melee-users a longer-ranged weapon. I don't want to be one of those people that want spears specifically in the game just because Nick said that they were originally planning to, I would happily welcome spears into the game, but I'm not about to make a suggestion for them since there are doubtlessly dozens. Not to mention, knights existed before the Cradle and obviously had some enemies or threats on their home planet, otherwise they wouldn't arrived so heavily armed and armored. It would make sense that there would be people of the same or similar species as them that used normal and piercing weapons since that's what the original Spiral Order armor and weapons are. Of course, bringing horses (or insert alien species of mount) on a space-faring expedition isn't very practical. That doesn't mean they wouldn't take such weapons as pole arms in the precaution of meeting their enemies or familiar threats again. As of now, I'm trying to introduce something fresh (to the unwashed masses that endlessly yearn for a scythe) and new to (see other parentheses) the players that isn't some recycled or half-baked hogwash.

Edit: Added some random stoof.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 18:43
#16
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
@Dementia

You know those Almirian Crusaders? They wield spears already. Spears would be 1-handed if implemented in the game for the players to use.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 18:51
#17
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
To Khamsin:

Almirians are undead, they don't feel fatigue or strain like we do. Swinging a spear all over the place would be very tiring using just one hand. Not to mention Almirians are significantly stronger than us either by physical training or nature. Their guards outsize our Guardians and Lieutenants by far, and their standard armor is akin to platemail. Also, they handle their spears like reskinned flourishes, because they're weirdos.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 19:04
#18
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
.

"Swinging a spear all over the place would be very tiring using just one hand."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dory_%28spear%29

Hmm?

Though admittedly the way spears are wielded in this game is somewhat strange (basically like swords), you can use a spear in one hand.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 20:20
#19
Arkate's picture
Arkate
@Dementia-Praecox. Ever seen

@Dementia-Praecox. Ever seen a troika? Those things are made of some sort of metal-composite mixture. If a knight can lift one of those in one hand, a spear should be easy to lift.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 20:23
#20
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
Hmm.

Notice how I said swinging, not thrusting. Thrusting requires less exertion than swinging something. Also, Halberds are certifiably heavier than Dories. The Almirian spear-tip is also pretty large, considerably more so than a Dory would be while having a shorter shaft, but Almirians swing it like a sword with one hand. Again, it seems they have greater physical strength and/or the game just being plain unrealistic. Then again, Spiral Knights can swing around swords taller than them and as wide as a boat paddle in one hand, so I suppose any credibility is out the window at this point. Just going to throw any logic and reason behind this suggestion out the window.

Herp derp, I like Halberds. They should be in the game. +Infinity to my own suggestion.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 20:49
#21
Arkate's picture
Arkate
Thrusting does require less

Thrusting does require less extertion. And I want to ask you who in the world swings a spear in an arc? Even Halberds are swung in a small, tight ark.

Mon, 10/07/2013 - 22:40
#22
Dementia-Praecox's picture
Dementia-Praecox
To Arkate:

Almirians do. As previously stated, they're weirdos.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 00:39
#23
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Fatigue is not an issue when it comes to anything. Judging by the fact that a "dead" knight is nothing more than an alive knight in a suit of power armor which is immobilized due to critical damage, and the fact that the Troika, or a better example, the Sudaruska, is quite obviously a large amount of solid rock/metal, (so are Titan Statues which are lifted effortlessly, and vials/pots which are pelted at an impossible trajectory) one can assume that the knight's power armor is capable of titanic feats.
That being said, unless a Halberd was animated properly, swinging it like a sword would look even wonkier than the flourish/Almirian Spear setup.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 02:09
#24
Geosmin's picture
Geosmin

It does rather bug me how swords seem to be over-represented, but not so much in this game as in media in general. SK I find more tolerable than the average game with melee weapons, because here the "sword" class includes things that I just can't interpret as literal swords. Besides the Rocket Hammer of course, even adjusting for SK's whimscal dimensional distortion, I can only see the melee weapons as dealing damage via some powered mechanism. For example, the Pierce swords are vibro-blackjacks when I feel like a nut, an unspecified RF heating mechanism when I don't, and Troikas are weaponised "power axes" which use artificial gravity magic possibly related to that used by starship drives and/or antimatter-containment schemes used by power plants. (because they're clearly intended to be epic "swords," and a battle axe for literally wielding the unfathomable power of a starfaring people seems the most natural "epic" interpretation)

Halberd is one of my favourite archaic weapons, along with poleaxe, which for video game purposes are effectively the same thing, (That level of detail being irrelevant to SK.) so I too would like to see it implemented. Need for an explanation that sounds "believable" is so far from applicable to SK that it borders on heresy. Here, "because it would be fun, and can fit the coders' [presumably jam-packed since it's a buggy game by a small team] schedules" is the only justification needed- take that "makes sense" stuff and ...er, go play some game that was built around inaccurate clichés rather than the developers' wonderful imagination.

Also, based on the suggestions subforum, there are a lot of players who would gladly stow the shield in order to wield moar weapon if it were an option. I think I would welcome that, either with or without Gremlin-style shield use.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 08:07
#25
Thunderbog's picture
Thunderbog
hush draggies. i creep in.

me like this or never

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 13:50
#26
Terra-Necro's picture
Terra-Necro
@anyone

Oi! It's a game. It is not mean to be completely reasonable or make sense. It's aliens on an alien world. Anything goes.

+1 to the OP, and -infinity to anyone who continues to talk about real life physics in conjunction to this cartoonish game.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 06:03
#27
Onnicraft
-1

thats true, it would make a great change to all the swords, guns and bombs, but how would it work on like bosses? could u charge grab snarbolax? if u could how the hell?
but otherwise a great idea so it could be added. but if theres halberds, why not crossbows? or longbows? or spears? or maces? or shurikens? :D

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:37
#28
Arkate's picture
Arkate
@Onnicraft. Bosses are

@Onnicraft.

Bosses are generally uneffected by knockback and stuff like that.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 00:18
#29
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Bosses are generally uneffected by knockback and stuff like that.

Snarbolax and Jelly King aren't.

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