because right now UV are bought from? OOO? feyi, UVs are random, you buy them from OOO as much as you would buy them with my method. even if you use credit cards, the money goes to OOO.
also, have you become one of the guys saying OOO is greedy?
UVs need rebalancing and so does the RNG associated with them (Revised October 11th)
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 12:09
#52
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 12:27
#53
@Feyi's last comment
What's the difference between UVs changing hands between players and players getting UV's from Punch? Ultimately, all UVs come from either Punch or lucky crafts. Both rely on money/ce which translates into grinding/$$$ (note that the two are interchangeable due to the ce market).
At the moment, it is not profitable (at least 90% of the time) to roll good UVs on a piece of gear then sell it. It is profitable if you get a good UV while crafting and decided to sell it then. On the flip side, it is a much better deal to buy rare UVs on the AH than rolling for them yourself.
Under Thunder's system (or alternatively, my system), the money required to get a good UV from Punch would be so large that it won't be profitable to sell. Most valuable UVs on the AH would still be from crafting. As a consequence, it would still be cheaper to buy rare UVs on the AH than "buying" them from Punch. Those UVs being sold on AH must be cheaper because they were attained by luck. Demand for cheaper UVs will not drop.
I hope that clarifies things for you.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 12:47
#54
.
I have a strong feeling you would not have blown ten grand on rolling for a triple max feyi. And that's being very generous, my math puts it more in the neighborhood of 60 grand to get a triple max in the old system.
Editing my post to clarify, $10,000 USD. Not energy. I have a hard time believing you, some guy who showed up late in the game's life, would have burned that much on Spiral Knights just because you say so.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 13:11
#55
You know what I like?
Constructive forums.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 18:32
#56
There is one very simple way to balance UVs. Apply monster family bonuses as a flat % outside of the usual damage bonus calculations, perhaps 5% per level so that if you had Very High (UV) and two Mediums (from armor/helm) you would get a 40% bonus on top. In theory you could wear full Virulisk, BTS, two sword damage trinkets and the Liquifier III perk, and with a UV Very High on your sword, get +6, +55% damage. The only reason monster family bonuses are unpopular is because it is so easy to cap out at +6, with no point to adding on top of it. Give us that extra damage, and I will bet you my Construct VH Dark Retribution (trick bet since it's perma-bound) that the value of damage-aligned and damage-neutral monster family bonuses goes up significantly (i.e. Undead VH Voltedge, Construct VH Acheron).
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 21:00
#57
Beep.
Way back when I had a go about changing base charge times on bombs. I apologise. I read "reduced", as "made longer"... no idea why..
@Mohandar: Wouldn't that mean you could get +6 on everything, but +10 or so on monster-families? (the number isn't accurate, I took a very rough guess). I don't really see how that balances UVs in general. It just makes monster DB a better UV to get.
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 15:35
#58
Bumping for visibility, in case anyone has anything left to say..
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 19:21
#59
^UVs are a privelege, not a
^UVs are a privelege, not a right.
It doesnt work like that. You do not deserve UVs. They are for people who get lucky, or people willing to spend that kind of money on UVs.
Not only is it bad enough, it would kill the UV market completely. ASI VH would be worthless. CTR VH Nitronomes would be worth 640k instead of 3 mil o 2 mil. The higher market would collaapse in favor of lower market players, like you and me.
Point is, its a horrible, poorly thought out idea that makes absolutely no sense. The only way this would be fair is to make UV rolls 200k each. Then they would be guaranteed attainable, but the UV market would only fall slightly.
Not everything in a game has to be based on time put in. Random means random, and quantifying the number of rolls to a set number is just selfish. Think of the people who spent their Mom's money on the game to get ASI VH and CTR VH stuff and claim to have earned it with their nonexistent business plans. Those are the people who net OOO the most money. And OOO wouldnt be dumb enough to cut their life support.......would they?
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 16:34
#60
That's a weak example. You're guaranteed to get your license if you do well on your driver's test. Compare that to the UV-rolling system. No matter how "well" you do or how much you spend or time you put in, it's all up to chance. Also consider that having a license and a car is a "privelige" in the sense that you could just ride your bike everywhere, or even walk. See where I'm going with this?
It would kill the market, but it'd improve the game more than it'd hurt it, I'd think.
"your idea sucks and you make no sense" Prove it. I'm (mainly) here to discuss how to improve the game, not to be mad at people and argue out of hatred rather than reason. Are you?
If it impacts the game to such a huge extent as to making or breaking entire weapon lines, then I firmly believe it shouldn't be entirely based on chance. Accessories being random are fine, in contrast, because they're cosmetics.
Also consider reading Khamsin's posts. He's got some good stuff about that last bit, too.
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 17:32
#61
Ok, fair enough. Ill do a
Ok, fair enough. Ill do a benefit vs drawback list, and feel to add/make corrections as you wish.
Once again, purely my opinions. Also, the most times someone failed a drivers test was 775 times (old korean woman). Random fact. Now, to bizness.
Benefits:
-Poor thriftshop players like me are closer to having access to god UVs
-Richer players can UV up all of their items and max out everything reliably
-OOO makes a lot of money in the short run from people buying energy to make their dream item
-Lockdown potentially becomes more balanced- less "master" players dominate the match
-People buy more items to UV because it would cost less
Drawbacks:
-OOO loses money in the lung run
-Super rich players may quit due to simplicity of getting UVs- less utility gained from millions of crowns
-UV market sinks extremely low: rich players' assets lost 60%+ of their value depending on item and UV
-Bazaar forum shops end (most)
-Renders players with non-UVed weapons nearly useless, because of the would-be majority of endgame players having the UVs
-Lockdown nearly unplayable for non UVed players; weakens F2P playerbase
-Eventually may become a requirement in people's minds that their party must have UVs or risk gettting kicked, similar to how players joining a vana run NEED a blitz or shiver or will be deemed a liability
-leaves existing rich players with nothing to do (they already have all their accessories, but some are still struggling to create triple max sets, save for the super rich ones)
-Basically makes the game revolve around UVs. UVs or you are incompetent and slow down the party. Practically forces players to pay, which still does not benefit OOO in the long run. (I would compare this to a graph of [y = -x^2 + 5] and [y = 1]. The first graph represents how your idea proposal might go down. The area under represents money spent on energy. People would spend lots of money to buy UV rolls, and max out their favorite items. But over time (x -> sqrt(5)), people spend less until everyone has what they want. No more money spent (maybe a few dollars here and there from noobs). The second graph is a straight line, which would relresent money spent currently on UVs. Sure, it doesnt seem as much, but people will continue to spend money because of the uncertainty of UVs.)
You could put it this way too. Say time is 20 months, and money spent per month is an average of $4k. Sure, 80k sounds nice after 20 months. But its only 80k. On the other hand, (representing current situation), say time = 1200 months, and average spent per month is $500. Only 500 may cover cossts of servers running, but that totals $600k. It happens over a longer period of time, but turns out to be better than a short term energy payment spike that doesnt last long.
TL;DR
OOO loses money from UV setting due to only short term gains.
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 18:21
#62
^
Yep, Dezzler killed it. This game is not all about you Draycos, nor your reference about the car license (hardly relevent, this is a game, not real life and if you actually think of this game or this debate as a real life thing, then we have some problems).
The thing is, RNG system ensures the equilirium of the game, any noob or any P2P vanguard can get a max CTR on their brandish or a max slime bonus on their FF.
And as for your shadow lair key reference, I checked the patch history and I realized that there was time when SL key are only obtainable in lock boxes. The thing is, I never went to SL and I never will. I am not the veteran player you think I am and I hate those SL crap. I almost wish that the SL keys were never sold for 1.8K CE. So that way, not every P2P player can walk around the streets of Haven with their cliche to the max SL gears. The ways they bluff about how good looking their gears are making me SICK.
Here is what I think of the SL gears:
-snarby set: a cheap(or expensive) rip off of the dread skelly with sword damage bonus, it doesn't even have max freeze and poison resist like other 5* gears, lol.
-mercuiral demo set: you can only feel the MSI when it is VH, medium MSI hardly makes a difference (go check out chawkthree's channel to find out more) and the bomb damage bonus on that one is meaningless compared to the VH ctr on my volcanic demo.
-Heavenly iron set: I won't be suprised that you can get a 12 seconds of shock wearing this. I would rather be incenerated in my valkyrie set than having to put up with shock. And the fact that it only gives max fiend bonus on sword (everything else: medium) makes me wonder why this set even existed in the first place.
-Arcane salamander: a waste of maiden tears, nuff said. The only good feature that this set has is the halo.
- Almirian cursader set: a shadow azure guardian armor, and I think we all know how useless azure guardian sets are, right?
-Ice queen set: What is an Ice queen? Does that armor give you donus against Fionna and Cake? No? Then why is that set even there for???
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 20:17
#63
Excellent, some good discussion going on here.
"OOO loses money in the long run" Potentially, potentially not.
"Rich players might quit because they're not as unique anymore." They're always going to have the fanciest accessories, and the easiest time getting any new gear. They just won't have better stats than everyone else just because they got lucky or paid. Whether the people who leave because of that are worth keeping from a community standpoint is up for debate.
"UV market implodes." Yeah. Well. Hmm. I think it's worth it..
"Non-UV'd players are useless, disparity between Lockdown players. The game will revolve around UVs." I see your point... but hear me out. This is akin to a level-up system. Low levels will be less wanted than high levels... but that already happens. People tend to like a skilled player over someone else. People tend to like a player with specific gear over someone else, as you said. Some like people who have powerful UVs. And, yet, there are some who just want to play the game instead of thinking with elitism... My ideas mean that there will be no RNG-wall, meaning there's going to be a more defined gap between players, but the key difference is that it isn't nigh impossible to bridge that gap anymore. Assuming that the boosts are reasonably priced, they'd be exponentially more pricey as you get to higher boosts. I think that'd be a better scenario. Also... just for the record... a lot of the people who sink lots of time into LD have good gear, otherwise they probably wouldn't bother too much. A lot of people play Lockdown just for the rewards, some of them never touching it again after they get what they came for. A lot of the power from variants in Lockdown comes from status resistance above all else and then leaving space to use health trinkets, since you can get a pretty high ASI/damage boost from the class gear. I'd love to think it's possible to create a "no UV" lockdown mode, as well...
"TLDR; OOO loses money due to short term gains." Accessories count. I don't know how appealing they are to F2Pers, but I'd like to assume that paying players would still like looking different from most everyone else.
I do want to mention that if CTR gets toned down, the difference between paying/free players won't be nearly as massive. What if, if we kept this frustrating RNG system and abandoned the idea of level-based progression beyond star-level, CTR got what it needed? If that alone got changed, I'd get part of what I want with my ideas, but the RNG stays. There might still be a nigh-impassable wall between the two kinds of players, but the gap between them would be much smaller...
_____________________________________________
@Midnight-DJ
"This game isn't all about you." Of course it isn't. Why do you assume I think that way, for one, and two, why would it even matter, when my goal is first and foremost to narrow the gap between F2P/P2P (by killing RNG)?
"nor your reference about the car license" ...You must have missed the part where I was talking about it in response to the person who brought up the metaphor in the first place.
"RNG ensures the equilibrium of the game." How does it do that? I've said this who knows how many times, but if someone can pay 20k for ASI Max and another person can pay 500k for Beast Low, there's a problem: it isn't fair. The first person could have just gotten their Vanguard title, and the second person could have been grinding since 2011. Is it really an "equilibrium" that's healthy and enjoyable? I don't think so.
"As for shadow lair keys... never gone to them... P2P players flaunting their gear." Come on, man. When they were in lockboxes, the concept of SL gear was far more P2P than it is now. When they became 1800CE guaranteed as opposed to who-the-heck-knows-how-much, you could pay for them with crowns or by real money. This is EXTREMELY similar to how it is with gear in general, and EXTREMELY similar to my idea of a "level-up system" in the guise of UVs. The people with Shadow Lair gear may have paid for it with real money, or they could have bought a key with their crowns, gotten the prerequisite items with their time, and cleared the levels with their skill/time. Are they still "P2P"?
Those people use their gear in costumes because it's a label they assign themselves that says "Hey, I was good enough to get through this area! I know my stuff!" You can be tired of seeing a certain costume, but that doesn't mean it doesn't say something about the player. I'd even say most people with SL gear actually earned it instead of flat-out buying it.
"off topic dissection of SL gear" I'll bite... but how balanced they are, or how good they are, is totally irrelevant to what this thread is about.
-Snarbolax: ...is the only shadow-defense, sword-damage gear in the game, excluding the BKC which doesn't really count. Poison defense is a little hard to come by, concerning good offensive gear.
-Mercurial Demo: MSI is a linear +4% per level. At medium, you move just a tiny bit slower than someone running normally... while you're charging blast bombs, mist bombs, etc. The damage bonus is a nice touch. Since MSI is extremely rare and unobtainable except through specific gear choices, it's an excellent choice for people who have CTR trinkets already, or the UVs to compensate.
-Heavenly Iron: It's not good enough to bother using outside of a costume.
-Arcane Salamander: It's bad stat-wise but it's one of the prettiest sets in the game. I love the helmet! Also, it doesn't come with a halo. Still has glowy runes though.
-Almirian Crusader: is the Almirian Crusader costume.
-Ice Queen: Good for running the levels you just ran to get it, not sure where it fits in otherwise. Skolver is better, for sure.
tldr; SL sets are a sign of accomplishment and only rarely have a practical use.
Mon, 10/21/2013 - 23:10
#64
@Draycos
-The reason why I said RNG is good is due to the FACT IT IS NOT FAIR. It is never intended to be. It is designed so that everyone has the chance of getting a a max CTR on their brandish or a max slime bonus on their FF. And also, who the hell is forcing you to punch your weapons? If you think that the system is 'unfair' to you, then why NOT STOP PUNCHING THEM and use your money on crafting new gears? Whoever paid 500K for beast low is a complete moron and he deserves the additional grinding, so he/she gets to learn the lesson. And I don't see why any veteran should complain when their CTR max (or a fiend MAX on the GF, you may never know) is just around the corner.
"what crappy lesson? I have the #YOLOSWAG BIG Boiiiiiiiiii"-Drayco
-The lesson here is rather simple, this game is not fair(in fact it is never meant to be fair), Greavers cheat, trolljan stuns, people get OP UVs by paying money and it is meant to be that way. Each monsters are designed to punish a certain play style and they are OP in their own way: Kat->gun/bomb, Gremlin demo->sword, mecha knights->close range, Trolljan->lanything but blitz, greavers->anything but FF. Complaining about RNG is like comlaining about the very nature of this game, people make different weapons to gain an edge over their enemies, (shadow elemental and piercing system), and again, do you want to fight your enemy fair and square(levi and CIV)? Or would you exploit his/her weaknesses? You are most likely to prefer the latter in any MMO in existance. UV is also a mean to gain that 'edge', UV makes you stronger and better than other players, for a price, and thanx to the RNG system, all players are treated equal, no matter how much Crowns you put in, you will get the same treatment as everyone else(so in a way, RNG is fair), that was what I meant by equilibrium. Imagine if every monsters in clockwork had the exact same strengths and weaknesses, that IS BORING.
And also. SL gears are very relevent to the topic, they were once governed by RNG system and that ensures everyone has an equal chance of getting a SL key. And the fact that is rare makes the SL gear a commodity, but thanx to Kozma's new supply depot, the pre-patch SL veteran must felt cheated (and probably quit as the result) now that every noob with tonnes of SoL can get those gears for pretty much FREE (I have 35 eternals and 170 SoLs, with a good team and enough time, I can collect all SL gears without paying a single penny). Does that sound fair to you when you are a P2P player who spent countless amount of real life money for this?
The fact is the fact, the P2P base of SK is shrinking by the minutes. After the SL update and the free ele patch( effectively making everone who paid for the ele pass and lock boxes complete idiots ) and adding insult to injuries, the Crimson hammer/Orbs of alchemy stunt and not to mention the wings sale. The P2P players of SK are probably thinking to themselves, "should I buy this with my hard earned, real life money? I am pretty sure they will make it free the next patch... forget it"
"LOL GG nub, but I am pretty sure most of the P2P players won't care about losing a few bucks, U SUK MIDNIGHT X3" -Draycos
*sigh*, no, it is not about the money, it is the fact that they are removing priviledges away from the P2P players that pisses them off. Sure today weapons in the Supply depots sells for 1K CE, tomorrow it might be 300 CE. This uncertainty tightens up their wallets quite a bit. SL gears are lightly better than ordinary gears, but by having good UV on the SL gear along with paid trinkets, one could truely outclass other players, and that was what the P2P players wanted... but nowdays, everyone can have trinkets and SL gears, P2P player nolonger feel special. And now imagine removing the RNG, they will become nothing but common day peasent like the rest of us. And then comes the rage quit of P2P players as well as the end of SK.
P2P players (most of them) expected to be treated better than others. They think they deserve to have the rights F2P players could not have (due to they paid money to support the game) and even though I am a F2P player and I DO hate the P2P part of any game community in the guts. I have to thank these P2P players coz they are the very reason why we can still play this wonderful game. Without them, there won't be SK, let's face it. And mistreating them just isn't fair, they deserve more than this.
Narrowing the gap between the P2P and F2P does no good for the game, I have seen one MMO got destryoed by the P2P (basically the MMO is now a hallow husk, consists of only pay to win players in their dead frontiers) and another MMO got destryoed by F2P ( the game is sunked to the bottom of the navy fields due to lack of funding, and F2P means there is no way to reduce the grind, the game is more grindy than SK, that is right, MORE GRINDY THAN SK. ). Leaning way too close to either side will ruin it for the other side, the delicate balance between F2P and P2P must be maintained.
Being unfair is being fair, welcome to the real world, Draycos.
Tue, 10/22/2013 - 13:58
#65
Rather than continue arguing with you, I'm just gonna graveyard this and pitch the CTR changes as their own thread. You don't want to discuss or interpret this civilly, and I don't want to sound like a broken record using the same points and ideas repeatedly, or worse, give you some reason to keep throwing fire and explosions everywhere.
I'm going to leave this up for a while longer in case anyone else has anything left to say.
Tue, 10/22/2013 - 14:42
#66
^
What the. So you given up? I got some good points back there. Anyway, if you wanna leave the RNG system along, that is fine by me. But if you just wanna remove it becuase you wanted some good UV for a lower prize, then no. You don't deserve it, nor is the guy who spent 500K cr for a beast low. RNG system treats everyone equal and it should stay like that.
Being unfair is being fair, there are reasons why some expliots exist in this game (*cough* FSC *cough*) and RNG for the UV crafting should stay that way. And what make you think some weapon deserves CTR more than others? When you get a CTR med on anyweapon, you should be greatful, why change it? Just because it is on your magnus when you actually wanted an ASI?
Gaveyard this crap now. Coz I wanna join in on the next flame war, what is next I wondered. Shard fix? SL fix? All primordial garbbage.
P.s. man, stuff you, I wasted an hour writting all that stuff and you are not even gonna read it? Forget it, I am gonna be a troll from now on.
Tue, 10/22/2013 - 14:55
#67
I read it, but at this point it's more trouble than it's worth to reply.
Primordial, yes, garbage, no.
The next one will just be about CTR. Sorry.
@Khamsin: I'm not sure where you stand on this 'getting easier' of the game but I'd say it would be a shame if it became even less challenging.
Also: Totally would have. I spent more rolling than most people earn in this game, as it's the only thing worth working towards imo.
@Draycos: make a comprehensible first post.
TTB's idea is not bad, but it has the flaw that you can essentially buy UVs.
Roll 'til you get what UV you're looking for, insert Mastercard, get VH.
You know how that system works now? You buy the UV from someone, not OOO.
Which is a good thing imo, as the supply depot sales show exactly how much it ruins the market when all the money flows towards OOO.