It's elite difficulty. Just because you couldn't take 500,000 hits from an enemy while using the Chaos Set does not qualify it as OP. At this point we might as well be telling OOO to nerf oilers because you can't combat them with a combuster.
T3 Darkfang Thwacker Nerf
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 09:01
#52
^
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 09:04
#53
^
Why would you want to set an oiler on fire in the first place?
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 09:08
#54
@Granseal.
That's my point. The oil trail...fire...
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 09:40
#55
@Arkate
It has already been established in this thread that you can survive 3 of these spin attacks and on the fourth you are dead with any normal+element armor better than chaos. (incl chaos w/ UVs)
With anything anything else, you are dead in 3 attacks (except ancient).
Now this is with penta trinkets and a vitapod from full health.
I have already established with timing that the only way to avoid this attack is to already be running away before it starts, dash, or shield due to the inability to predict when this attack occurs.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 10:43
#56
Is this thread a joke? Gremlins are easy and I often have to annihilate them by the dozens in deconstruction zones...
Like Hexzyle said... if you can't figure out how to beat them then you shouldn't be playing on elite. It is more of an indicator of gear issues than their functionality being difficult because really it isn't.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 10:52
#57
@Writhes
Thank you for trolling and adding nothing constructive to the thread. Shall I repeat anything that I said in post #3, #12, #21, #25, #32, #38, #40?
I think I'll go with the last one: GUESS WHAT THEY DO THE SAME DAMAGE ON LOWER DIFFICULTIES.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 13:11
#58
You're absolutely right so should all mobs that do above average damage be nerfed as well?
Trojans? Nerf!
Rocket puppy? Nerf!
Everything else? Nerf!
/end sarcasm
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 11:41
#59
@Writhes
How many trojans can you face together? I've seen 2 max.
How about rocket pups? 2, maybe 3.
Gremlin Thwackers? I'd estimate about 10 in some decon zones. Could probably go up to 20 or so if you went around luring them all.
Now you got me wondering: How does their damage compare to trojans...
D24 FSC Trojan normal swing deals 12.54 bars of damage on my junk armor. Their dash attack deals 15.51 bars of damage (may have gotten into the reduction area, so I'm going to assume its supposed to be 15.75, the same as the thwacker spin).
Wait... can someone else actually test this? I did it another 3 times just to check - All the same.
Guess what now, Gremlin Thwacker's axe is more lethal than a Trojan's giant sword, but comparable to their shield bash. And this doesn't even take into account the timing differences on their attacks.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 11:49
#60
0
"How about rocket pups? 2, maybe 3."
Now here's a man who's never entered a non-status arena before.
12 rocket puppies, my good man. They make every other mob in the game seem like a cakewalk.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 12:00
#61
@Zeddy
Now here's a man who's never entered a non-status arena before.
Completely forgot about that one. Also strategically, you can make sure only 8 at once. Furthermore, ever since dash made them lose aggro (and dashing through rockets blew them up without damage), they seem like they aren't too hard to handle. Still that is one flavor of an arena that is optional(elevator before that part) and has the "danger" warning before entering. I've counted more than 6 Gremlin Thwackers on more than just one out of the many permutations of clockwork floors.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 12:10
#62
So?
You're complaining about Gremlin Thwackers being OP, but rocket puppies are fine. You yourself said that with a shield, you can avoid the damage. So effectively use your shield. And bring a gravitron vortex.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 12:34
#63
@Arkate
I'm suggesting that one of the Gremlin Thwacker's attacks deals a disproportionately high amount of damage for the ability to recognize and avoid the damage. You have been extremely unhelpful in the discussion in this thread. All of my responses to you have been reiterations of my previous posts. Arkate, please read some of the posts before posting again in my thread. I should not have to respond to you trolling an uninformed comment in my thread every 5 posts because you do not take the time to read the content.
You want to talk about how rocket pups are more balanced than thwackers? Say that then. Don't complain about how I don't compare the balances of a gun puppy when someone brings it up 4 posts ago. They literally aim and shoot. They cant even move. They flinch at the same damage that a thwacker does. I don't encounter them often enough to measure their damage but my guess is that it is probably on par with either the 2nd highest or the highest I've measured so far. The balancing that I mentioned so far was they normally never are seen in greater numbers than 2 or 3 (only exception the arena, which is an optional area and even then rarely occurs with the no-status).
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 12:34
#64
Skepticraven.
I am not trolling anybody. You are suggesting that because (in your opinion) an enemy has one seriously powerful attack, that attack should be nerfed. Yes, it does very high damage. Yes it is unpredictable. But I don't want Darkfang Thwackers to go down the road that devilites went down. True, in some situations they can be considered almost broken. And this is on ELITE DIFFCULTY. HELLO? Elite difficulty is built for Penta-Heart, Max UV, 4 weapons, crazy skills.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 12:37
#65
*Sigh* @Arkate
Try reading My post #40 or #57. Thank you for continuing trolling.
I'll just quote my post #57 again if you couldn't scroll up.
"GUESS WHAT THEY DO THE SAME DAMAGE ON LOWER DIFFICULTIES."
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 12:45
#66
I do just fine without
I do just fine without trinkets or having quad weapons with max UV's everywhere. On Elite. Granted I have party mates helping me out but still, just turtle it for crying out loud.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 13:10
#67
@Granseal
So do I. That is not what this discussion is about. I'm going to update my first post to be more clear and point out the discoveries. **Edit: Done updating**
"I'm suggesting that one of the Gremlin Thwacker's attacks deals a disproportionately high amount of damage for the ability to recognize and avoid the damage." First line of my post #63.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 19:18
#68
You wanna know the irony of
You wanna know the irony of my position? I'm good at handling Gremlins but Devilites still can give me problems on occasion. Not so much now with some piercing weapons on hand but still those large hitbox supplies peg me in the face every now and again. That also goes for the Thwacker's Axe Throw. Mostly when I'm being pressured by other enemies. I've been throw stunned and hit with that high damage attack, not particularly fun I will concede that.
Thu, 10/17/2013 - 16:03
#69
I see the reasoning behind Skeptic arguments, but I don't think this deserves a "OMG SO BROKEN FIX EET" thread. It's like an overreaction...
I'm a 4* Knight [Ash Tail+DTShield+Blazebrand] and I learned to handle the Thwackers not so long ago. Thanks to that I got better, more skilled and less rambo. Avoiding being hit is the prime rule after all.
Taking away what makes them so challenging is... bad. They punish you for playing with no strategy, running and hitting at random. You don't fight Elite mobs with brute force, you have to think before moving.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant or if I'm offending anyone, but I REALLY enjoy the Thwackers as they are now. I'm not a Pro, I'm far from it, but hearing people wanting to nerf a mob always makes me sad (even with the devilites, and I hate them).
Thu, 10/17/2013 - 17:22
#70
@Wavara
One of my "nerfs" includes a method of identifying the attack - giving the attacked knight the ability to react to it. It is the one I'm most in favor. Having a thwacker mow down 30%+ of your hp because you just opened that gate at the wrong time doesn't seem fair.
Also I need a bit more testing but its beginning to seem like this attack makes the thwacker invulnerable to flinching. Interestingly I was using an Acheron charge and hit the thwacker's attack into an ally. Unfortunately I don't have a video for it and don't recall the number of allies/depth. This could be the similarity with my Combuster change not making a Mecha Knight flinch during its charge attack (Flinch is based on % hp damage it seems - 3 player they flinch, but 4 they do not).
Thu, 10/17/2013 - 17:40
#71
oh for Nicks sake. Why is
oh for Nicks sake. Why is this thread still here. Please stop posting in this guies.
Thu, 10/17/2013 - 20:44
#72
@Waffleconecake
Useless comment #811112 on this forums. Thank you for contributing.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 03:36
#73
considering all Thwackers do have the chance for stun
Ah you do have a point.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 04:45
#74
I checked out your UV thing. I have a normal high Deadly Virulisk cap and a non-UVed Snarbolax cap. With the snarby cap and Divine Mantle, I had 15% out of 15 pips left after a spin. With the Normal High Perk, I had 18% left. With the Deadly Virulisk Cap, I also had 18% left.
This is a difference of 3% total health. 15 x 40 x 3% = 18
18/3 = 6. Very close to my numbers, and considering the margin of error is somewhere around 6 hit points (1% of 600 hit points, 15 pips), it's fairly safe to assume this is closer to 6.5.
I dunno what to tell you, man. Did you double-check your test?
As a side-note, I have a lot of trouble getting gremlins to use their spin in the first place. I need to put in like ten minutes of work to get hit by one. Was going to compare Mad Bomber with and without the elemental high from sprites, and I almost gave up.
The numbers for that was 33% and 36% btw. Your tests are faulty somewhere.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 05:48
#75
@Zeddy
I checked it out. I have a normal high Deadly Virulisk cap and a non-UVed Snarbolax cap.
Unsure what this is being compared to. I've only tested the element UV.
Additionally, I've noticed the damage reduction with <5 pips of health (Post #40). I don't see many others quantifying how this function works, but it may be at least throwing off the first numbers.
I'm fully aware that it takes a bit of time to get hit by the spin. I have noticed that they use the attack more when in groups. Sometimes its 5 minutes between when they use it, sometimes its 3 seconds between use. The same thing with the ranged attack. I probably spent about 10 minutes per armor set testing the damage (I get hit then die to restore health to get hit a 2nd time for 2 datapoints).
The numbers for [Mad Bomber were] 33% and 36% btw.
Is this again with 15 pips of health? If so, it seems very strange for me that you are comparing stuff entering the damage reduction zone again. Also, was this the equivalent of stratum 6, where I was testing?
Your tests are faulty somewhere.
Are you 100% sure they are mine? I'm very interested in how you are getting different data than mine. Were they OCH thwackers on the first depth? Is the damage different with heart trinkets?
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 05:57
#76
I got my data from OCH thwackers on the first depth. The difference in damage was 3% of my health for both elemental and normal UVs. 15 pips.
I also made very sure that the defence did not exceed the treshold. If I get take 67% damage from the spin while wearing Chaos, that's a total of around 402 damage, or 201 normal, 201 elemental assuming an even distribution. Add the 125 normal/elemental defence from Mad Bomber/Chaos, that's 323 normal, 323 elemental damage. (This is assuming defence for Chaos is 125 at depth 24, and not less.) My defences would have to exceed 161 before getting to the treshold. Even if the distribution isn't even, I did test both normal and elemental to make sure of this and both gave a 3% damage reduction compared to total health.
This was all on elite mode, additionally.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 06:19
#77
@Zeddy
Haven't tested extensively, but it is safe to say they do not do equal normal-elemental split damage.
I poked around a d19 decon zone against Gremlin 2nd swing (since I couldn't get them to do the 360 attack):
Chaos + Chaos : 3 pips
Chaos + Chaos + Normal High : 3 pips
Chaos + Chaos + Elem Med : 2.75 pips
Suggesting that the amount of normal damage in their attack is quite low and is fully blocked by a full set containing normal defense. I had similar conclusions with Devilite projectiles in d24 but didn't test anywhere else. It's possible that the 360 attack does so much damage that the normal threshold isn't met.
Carry on...
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 08:47
#78
@Zeddy
I just confirmed the 33% and 36% remaining hp with no trinkets equipped (Chaos set + stun perk and Chaos set + ele high perk, 2 datapoints each from 100% hp). There is likely either a damage increase with trinkets or it is running into the damage reduction zone. It is possible this zone is utilized when it detects "Unreduced lethal damage".
Being interested in resolving this strange thing happening, I put on one heart pend (the 1* one) which puts my hp at 17 pips. Now this one really confuses me... as I got knocked down to 41%+stunned (tested 3 times from 100% hp -> Equip = Chaos set + stun perk). Ok, same damage. Fine. Interestingly enough, I got a perfect chance to examine the damage reduction again - I got comboed the spin attack with 17 hp one of the times, and came out alive with 2% hp.
I equipped both penta trinks again and guess what? It is no longer the same as before. (62% remain with 27 pips total. Also added a couple others just for kicks)
My new tests from today : 10/18/2013
Chaos set + stun high perk = 15 pips health = 33% hp left on attack = 402 damage
Chaos set + element high perk = 15 pips health = 36% hp left on attack = 384 damage
Chaos set + 1x element high trink + element high perk = 15 pips health = 38% hp left on attack = 372 damage
Chaos set + 1x element high trink + stun high perk = 15 pips health = 35% hp left on attack = 390 damage (Strange → quite a bit for rounding compared to pet perk)
Chaos set + 1x health pendant (1*) + stun high perk = 17 pips health = 41% hp left on attack = 401.2 damage (definitely rounding)
Chaos set + 2x penta heart pendant (5*) + stun high perk = 27 pips health = 62% hp left on attack = 410.4 damage (ok possibly a rounding error)
Chaos set + 2x penta heart pendant (5*) + element high perk = 27 pips health = 64% hp left on attack = 388.8 damage (round again)
All datapoints have 2 tests minimum (3 if I got a pill during the tests).
It seems only my first 13 pip value is in error. I still think the damage itself is not equivalent to the amount of warning the attack gives.
Bonus tip for anyone else that wants to test: They use this attack more frequently with very low hp (the same hp they would use a health pill with).
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 09:10
#79
On a side note, I think it's weird that base health for clockworks is 5 health while it's 8 in Lockdown. It's like Strikers don't actually have a health penalty at all.
You have to remember, since we're measuring this stuff in percentages, that we're going to have more or less a 1% margin of error (because we have no idea of the rounding logic on the percentages). When you're using dual pentas, this amounts to 10.8 hit points but only 6 when you're not.
The elemental trinket and the elemental sprite perk don't provide the same amount of defence, I'm fairly sure. In LD, a high perk should give 19.5 defence where the trinket would only provide 18. (Two trinkets provide 32 where a double max UV gives 52.)
As far as I can tell, all your values are within the margin of error of eachother.
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 17:00
#80
<insert witty comment here>
Spam Acheron charges or use Gran Faust and don't get cornered. They really aren't that difficult.
Sat, 10/19/2013 - 05:18
#81
I did a test in Lockdown and have determined that your health percentage rounds down.
15 pips:
33% health left means 198-203 health left. Damage inflicted: 397-402
36% health left means 216-221 health left. Damage inflicted: 379-384
38% health left means 228-233 health left. Damage inflicted: 367-372
35% health left means 210-215 health left: Damage inflicted: 385-390
We can now compare the defence of the trinket vs the perk.
With the perk, damage was 379-384
With the trinket, damage was 385-390
Difference in defence can be narrowed down to 1-11, but no further than that yet.
Anyways, your trinkies numbers:
17 pips:
41% health left means 279-285 health remaining. Damage inflicted: 395-401
27 pips:
62% health left means 670-680 health remaining. Damage inflicted: 400-410
We can merge the results and narrow the damage down:
400-401
64% health left means 692-701 health remaiing. Damage inflicted: 379-388
Unfortunately, that one doesn't narrow anything down.
Tue, 07/05/2016 - 14:56
#82
dafef
dafef
Tue, 07/05/2016 - 16:19
#83
wow okay
>gets name change
>bumps 3 year old thread
clearly the meta posting we need on this subforum
Thu, 07/07/2016 - 10:41
#84
...
oops posting in a necrod thread
Eh, I don't really have a problem with them. Then again I'm wearing Vog or Snarb while fighting them.