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so... just so we're not being prejudiced here (gunner update related)

36 replies [Last post]
Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:09
Dean-Zane's picture
Dean-Zane

IS there going to be a sword update? I mean.. we've had the bomb update where RSS was poofed and all the shards came into play... now we're having a Gun update in which Gunners will unleash their bullet fury on the clockworks.

WHAT ABOUT US SWORDIES?!

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:16
#1
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
@OP

I'd hardly call a rework of shard bombs as a bomb update.

I suspect that bombers will get addressed before swordmasters.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:16
#2
Digibyte's picture
Digibyte
Well...

You swordies have gotten PLENTY of love from OOO in the past. Other types of weaponry need some time to shine.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 16:50
#3
Arkate's picture
Arkate
...Swords...you guys have

...Swords...you guys have more weapons to choose from than anybody, and have the largest playerbase in the game. Other playstyles need a little injection to breathe new life into them.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 16:53
#4
Isekuube's picture
Isekuube
Derp. :3

Ullik and Arkate basically hit the nail on the head.

Even so, I swear there's going to be some sort of sword related bug-fix in the Gunner Update. >.>

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 17:11
#5
Bopp's picture
Bopp
as a primary sworder and general nuisance

I do feel that bombers and gunners deserve attention before sworders. However, let's be clear about our facts: In the 5-star weapons, there are (by my count)

  • 18 swords, which are variations on at most 8 core concepts,
  • 17 guns, which are variations on 7 core concepts, and
  • 18 bombs, which are variations on at least 6 core concepts.

So, depending on how you count, swords have either slightly more variety than guns and bombs, or no more variety. Really, I feel that bombers deserve attention before gunners, but I'll take any new content I can get.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 17:17
#6
Arkate's picture
Arkate
@Bopp. Yes, but think about

@Bopp. Yes, but think about the variety between the weapons, and their actual useability.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 17:41
#7
Battlegrinder's picture
Battlegrinder

I'd like to point out that there's a good chance that sword and bomb updates will be released sooner or later, and gunners are just getting their stuff first.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 18:05
#8
Hero-Of-Cheese's picture
Hero-Of-Cheese
Cheese is good

Was going to respond to the topic. Sees everyone has said what I wanted to say. Proceeds to go with plan B: Guns go pew pew pew!

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 18:37
#9
Bopp's picture
Bopp
huh?

Arkate, I specifically addressed the issue of "variety among the weapons", by evaluating how many distinct "core concepts" there are in each weapon type. Please read before writing.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 18:37
#10
Voza-Il's picture
Voza-Il
@OP Swordies are the last

@OP Swordies are the last people who need attention in the game. Just compare the numbers of swordies, gunners, and bombers to each other both in PvP and PvE. I would say the ratio of swords:guns:bombs is maybe 30:7:1.

And honestly, we dont need any more of those birdpoop skolvers running around thinking they rock but actually are sucky. Gunners and swordies i would say are similar. The armors provide similar bonuses and defenses. But bombs....Cut the CT of each bomb in half and they might actually start to penetrate lockdown and PvE and be competent in terms of dps.

Anyways, all you generic swordies can wait. Promoting the gunners and bombers would brring much needed diversity to the disgusting dogfest that currently constitutes most of the havens, clockworks, and lockdown arenas.

OOO, I hope this update will oppose the previous ones for the most part by actually being good. My guess? Big, fat, NYET

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 19:53
#11
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

*нет

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 20:18
#12
Agentz's picture
Agentz
BLARGH

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the swordie has a bomber profile pic?

Bombers need a buff in about -1.5 years ago. Period. ~Z

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 20:46
#13
Writhes's picture
Writhes

Swords (perhaps being the poster child of weapons in Spiral Knights) are the well balanced and most used weapons in the game. This is very evident when you go into a random party or play lockdown where people use everything from hammers, brandish lines, flourishes, DA, GF, etc.. The variety of weapons commonly being used speaks for itself in aspect of sword balance.

Considering swords are in a really good place right now I believe developers should be aspiring to bring the other weapons up to where swords are.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:26
#14
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
That double negative...

Bombers need a buff in about -1.5 years ago.

So Bombers need a buff in 1.5 years?

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 22:17
#15
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

What is about to happen to the gunner's weaponry needed to happen there first. Guns exist in a very low damage-range where using the effective damage type for the right kind of monster makes a huge difference.

Whether you hit a slime with a Divine Avenger or a Gran Faust barely matters at all.

Whether you bomb a beast with Dark Briar Barrage or Nitronome doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. It literally takes the same amount of bombs for the most part.

Whether you shoot a slime with an Argent Peacemaker or a Sentenza basically doubles your time spent fighting that monster.

Where a bomber can bring their favourite line of bomb anywhere*, and a swordsman can bring their favourite line of sword anywhere**; a piercing Antigua will make a huge difference against beasts and fiends; and a shadow Autogun makes a giant difference against gremlins and slimes***.

*Basically the only exception here is DR. Even though mist bombs only come in elemental varieties, the statuses are still helpful all-around.

**There are a few exceptions. I'm considering the Rocket Hammer to be in the "Heavy Sword" line, since it's mostly a variety of Troika. Flourish can't be brought effectively against construct/slime. Cutters and Spur would benefit very largely from specialized branches. Ironically, those two swords share their damage values with guns.

***Provided Blitz gets its much-needed nerf. Right now Blitz can be used against neutral with no problem and even constructs if you go at it.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 22:28
#16
Skillextor's picture
Skillextor
@Hexzyle

"Bombers need a buff in about -1.5 years ago.

So Bombers need a buff in 1.5 years?"

I'm going to take a wild guess on this one and say, you did not notice the NEGATIVE sign in front of the 1.5 years.

Based on what I learned in elementary, a negative sign means subtract.

So, what he meant was, bombing needed an update 1.5 years ago.

I'm glad I could clear that up for you.

I would hate for someone to misunderstand your post.

=.=

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 22:58
#17
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

But he didn't say 1.5 years ago, he said -1.5 years ago. Moving on from elementary school math to junior high school math, a double negative makes a positive.

1.5 years ago = -1.5 years in the future
-1.5 years ago = -(-1.5) years in the future = 1.5 years in the future.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 23:54
#18
Fangel's picture
Fangel
We're being picky now are we?

In mathematics, a double negative is a positive.

In English, a double negative creates an invalid sentence.

On a forum on the internet, a double negative gets one ridiculed.
... Then again, so does stating an unpopular opinion.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 11:49
#19
Terra-Necro's picture
Terra-Necro
@Skillextor

He said -1.5 years AGO.

In English, Ago basically counts as another negative, making it 1.5 years from now. You, sir, need to brush up on your English as well.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:28
#20
Bitsbee's picture
Bitsbee

Math makes my head hurt.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:33
#21
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
.

This is one of the most dumb arguments I've seen in a while. Stahp.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 16:42
#22
Dean-Zane's picture
Dean-Zane
I'm starting to..

I'm starting to understand where you guys are coming from and I find myself agreeing on a few points. As for math?

Mental
Abuse
To
Humans

Please dont bring Math up XD

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 16:44
#23
Khamsin's picture
Khamsin
@Dean

Wat? I love math.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 17:07
#24
Neodasus's picture
Neodasus
You're so cute OP

I realize that you're new to the whole "mmorpg" thing so let me clear you up on how the hype train works:

1. Buff underrepresented class/sub-class
2. Activity goes up, everyone starts spending money trying to get the best possible output from that class/sub-class
3. Nerf it to hell, literally kill it.
4. Repeat

It will be in this order: Guns > Bombs > Swords. Just when you thought swords were over and done with...BAM hype train! Get ready for some sick new designs like sickles and maces! In the end it will all be balanced until the next hype cycle begins, but for now ride the hype train and have some fun.

The entire point of this update is to get you to play in a different way, so go ahead and buy into it.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 02:54
#25
President-Trump
You're really cute.

Let's tear this down:
1. Swordies
Defensive sets:
Skolver - piercing and VH sword damage (Freeze: 8)
Vog - Elemental and VH sword ASI (Fire: 8)
Snarbolax - Shadow and VH sword damage (Freeze, poison 6) *SL*
(They all look different!)

Weapons:
4 Brandishes, x3 elemental and one shadow. Provides freeze, fire and shock upon charge attack. Combuster and Acheron has a built-in shield bumping mechanic that will let any mob 'folllow the wave'.
4 Toothpicks with 2 that offer stun and fire, considerably the best weapon against beasts.
2 Sealed line swords with satisfactory damage and range.
3 Troika line swords which offer stun, freeze and shock (though we shouldn't really count the shock one). The highest normal-damage weapon.
3 Calibur Swords with a defensive charge and fairly fast attack speed.
2 Cutter line quick swords, extremely fast and requires skill to use.
FoV, the charge kills pretty much any non-boss monster (even gremlins and beasts)
Hammer, very high DPS when used correctly.

Excluding that shock troika that's 17 swords in total. (didn't count Winmillion)
2 Deal shadow damage
5 deal elemental damage
14 deal normal damage
3 deal piercing damage
*Gran Faust is one of the only 3 sources of Curse the player can have in this game*
{S,E,P,N}={2:5:14:3}

Bombers:
Bombarstic Set - elemental and VH bomb damage (stun 8)
Mad Bomber Set - elemental and VH bomb CTR+damage (many status deductions)
Mercurial Demo Set - Elemental and med Bomb damage+MSI (shock 8) *SL*
Volcanic Demo Set - Elemental and VH bomb CTR (Fire 8)
Piercing: [?]
Shadow: [?]
Right, they don't exist.

Weapons:
x5 Haze bombes: Fire, Poison, Shock, Stun, Freeze. All elemental.
x6 Shard Bombs: 2 piercing, 2 shadow and one for normal and elemental.
x3 Blast bombs: all normal, 2 has an additional stun.
Dark Briar Barrage: Piercing, little knockback, the best universal weapon against fiend, beasts and gremlins.
Dark Retribution: Shadow
x2 Vortex bombs, one elemental offers shock and the other is shadow.
18 different 5* bombs.

So bombers have:
3 bombs that deal shadow damage.
7 bombs that deal elemental damage.
3 bombs that deal piercing damage.
4 bombs that deal normal damage.
{S,E,P,N}={3:7:3:4}
Nothing to defend against shadow.
Nothing to defend against piercing.
(I know there's a kat hat out there but that does not come as a set, ie: Helm+armour)

Bombs that flashes the screen too much or knocks everything back are beloved in parties, people will rage.

Gunners:
Justifier Set: Piercing, VH asi on guns. (+8 Stun)
Shadowsun Set: Shadow and VH damage on guns (+8 poison)
Deadshot Set: Shadow and Universal VH damage towards undead, med asi on guns (+6 curse)
Nameless Set: Elemental and VH asi on guns (+8 freeze)
In addition a Seerus Mask that has ctr med+asi low on guns

Weapons:
5 alchemer guns, 4 elemental and 3 offers a status: shock, fire and freeze. The other one is shadow.
2 Antigua guns, elemental and shadow.
2 magnus guns, piercing and normal, unable to move while shooting. Piercing one offers stun.
A Valiance, pure normal, AoE and knockback.
2 Pulsar guns, elemental and normal, AoE and knockback. Elemental Polaris gives shock.
2 Catalysers (I'm Australian), normal and shadow, charge act like sticky bombs and have pretty high damage.
2 Needle guns, piercing and one offers poison. Universal weapon against beast, gremlins and fiends. The highest DPS weapon. Unable to move and shoot.
1 Autogun, normal and offers fire status along with knockback. Unable to move and shoot.
17 guns in total.

So gunners have:
3 guns that deal shadow damage.
6 guns that deal elemental damage.
3 guns that deal piercing damage, all unable to shoot and walk.
4 guns that deal normal damage, one unable to shoot and walk.

Summing up, swordies have everything they need against all types of enemies while gunners need a gun that allows one to shoot and move (Yeah, 5* Anitgua is coming I think) and bombers need a proper elemental source (blast bomb?) Gunners also need an SL set and some kind of gun associated with Snarby or Vanaduke.

Visually, gunner hats all look the same. Deadshot and Justifier looks exactly the same as their 3* version while nameless is the same as shadowsun.
The only 3 sources of curse are from vials, Gran Faust and Maskeraith's Ultimate Chaotic Haze. I would like to see a gun that offers curse status and should probably have some sort of penalty. As for bombs a curse mist bomb would be either too OP or completely useless as bombs require charging to be placed.

tl;dr: Swordies have everything they need already, an update will be counterproductive unless they're introducing completely new swords with new mechanics or provide Winmillion with a 5*. In my opinion swordies already have a wide range of weapons and most of them does split-damage (Powerful against some enemies and not too back against others). Gunners dfeinitely need some more guns and the Iron Slug should be worked on. Bombers need a proper elemental sourse that won't make party members grant and a set that offers defence against piercing and shadow (Kat Hiss Cowl itself IS NOT a SET).

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 04:26
#26
Trabias's picture
Trabias
Le Phantom Trabias

Swordies already have all they could have, let us gunners have some love for once, okay ?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 05:09
#27
Kickthebucket's picture
Kickthebucket
as a hybrid knight i can say

as a hybrid knight i can say that OOO is updating/tweaking the guns (maybe bombs in a later update) towards making them as viable as swords...

i use guns and bombs (shiv and Dark Retribution... note that these are more crowdcontroll than actualy used for killing things) pure as side arms. i tried gunning... and i didn't like it just for the simple fact that i takes to much time and there isn't enough diversity with the guns.

sure there are piercing/dark/elemental/normal guns

for piercing (and this counts for every weapon type) you don't realy have a choice on what weapon to pick
with piercing swords it's just the bonus effect and choice between 2 charges
for guns you either have the needle (massive focussed damage) or the callahan (powerfull 1 shot while again making you stop)
and bombs you choose between shards and DBB.

so again, as a hybrid i don't use diffrent guns to match my enemy's... i use powerfull guns that work in most situations (or as of late only the antigua lines and i don't play fiend lvl's because the lack of decent piecing weapons) and when i play a fiend lvl i use a neutral SWORD (i still don't like the piering sword combo, that's just personal prefference)

but enough ranting about this haha. what i'm getting at is, swords don't need an update (yet) sword users have a lot of diffrent sets and playstyles... where as gunners/bombers have a few armor sets and limited ammount of weapons so not much diversity going on there. and i think OOO wants to reduce the importance of UV's in PvE (encouraging making diffrent sets)

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 07:30
#28
Bopp's picture
Bopp
errors

Materialist, you might want to edit out the errors/typos in your post. As I explained above, there are 18 5-star swords. You list 20 (by counting FoV twice and the non-existent shock Troika once), and then somehow conclude that there are 17. You then say that there are 14 piercing swords ("{S,E,P,N}={2:5:14:3}").

Kickthebucket, you're using Dark Retribution for crowd control? Did you mean Graviton Vortex?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 07:50
#29
Writhes's picture
Writhes
@zeddy

"Whether you bomb a beast with Dark Briar Barrage or Nitronome doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. It literally takes the same amount of bombs for the most part."

Gonna have to disagree with that but not because of damage rather because knockback from nitro tends to spread out mobs requiring a lot more positioning and adjusting.

Maybe just my opinion but part of what makes Dark Briar Barrage and Dark Retribution so good is their lack of knockback allowing players to effectively kite mobs into consecutive blasts.

It would be nice if bombers could at very least have one blast bomb alchemy line without knockback.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 07:36
#30
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

I'm also really curious about what the third calibur is, Materialist. Is that a GM-exclusive weapon too?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:00
#31
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Zeddy

I'd say by the pointlessness in a lot of the weapons he's put up there, it's either the scissor blades or the lionheart, but you already knew that. (Just posting before someone else patronizes you)

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:03
#32
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Shouldn't he be listing the cleavers as well, in that case?

This list of weapons has so many plot holes.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 12:07
#33
Terra-Necro's picture
Terra-Necro
@Zeddy

He tried to act like Bopp and fell flat on his face.
*slow claps*

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 15:53
#34
Bitsbee's picture
Bitsbee
@Pulsarmon

Stop spamming every Gun-Related Thread with possible Spoilers.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 21:18
#35
Writhes's picture
Writhes
@Bitsbee

I do not see this person you speak of or perhaps your post is preemptive?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 21:26
#36
Thunderskull's picture
Thunderskull
@Writhes

The individual got slapped in the hand by moderators due to spoilage of the MIND.

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