Spiral Knights - Time to kill my reputation

Time to kill my reputation

29 replies [Last post]

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 20:52

Kathrine-Dragon

Yes. I'm going to do it. I'm going to make a shotgun suggestion.

Based off of the oRSS, the gun will have an initial short range 180 degree blast, probably 1/2 a square radius with minor knockback for the user and victim. It will do some damage. Following the initial explosion, there will be a blaster-sized bullet, which has no knockback and can go through enemies. Range of about 8(?) squares with pure piercing damage. Basic two-shot clip I believe, with fast firing speed. Blast damage would be similar to a blast bomb's, and the bullet would do something like 4 antigua-line shots worth of damage.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:00

Ustrinaferalthorn

... What reputation? Who are you?

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:03

Bitsbee

Their name is Kathrine-Dragon.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:12

Ustrinaferalthorn

I can see that, but I haven't seen anything particularly outstanding or even slightly noticeable from this person. I don't think I've even seen this ign until today.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:15

Bitsbee

"...I haven't seen anything particularly outstanding or even slightly noticeable from this person."

That's a mean thing to say...

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:36

Ustrinaferalthorn

Not mean, just the truth. Then again, a lot of the content on here isn't really outstanding (some is, it just takes time to find it with the crap that people post on here *coughcough* shotgun petition *coughcough*)

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:44

Bitsbee

Yeah, I guess that's true...Hey, were we supposed to be talking about something?

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:48

Ustrinaferalthorn

No, I don't think so.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 21:57

Bitsbee

Oh, alright then. Good night.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 00:42

Hexzyle

My analysis on the people in this thread

Katherine-Dragon: A quiet, infrequent forumer who writes highly coordinated but short posts
Nepetatheleo: A brash, newcomer to the forumers who is quick to speak and has a lively attitude.
Bitsbee: Don't exactly remember anything about this forumer...
Draycos: A frequent forumer but with interestes directly inverse mine, so I don't read his posts thoroughly that often.
Zeddy: Impossibly neutral forumer who rarely develops an opinion on anything unless he has a wall of facts behind him. Although quickly makes his presence known in locations which are his forte, never rears his face anywhere else unless absolutely necessary.
Terra-Necro: Memory is going fuzzy.... forumer who's been here for some time... fairly neutral, I think? Loves to prowl the forums giving positive feedback on what he deems creative. Which is often.
Klipik: Highly frequent and inventive forumer with a moderated mood and strong opinions, but not strong enough to make him obnoxious. Rarely loses his cool and doesn't post crap or beat around the bush.
Xxpapaya: Never completely serious and always trying to make others giggle, 100% lovable (and cute)
Arkate: A long time feisty user who has the same dogmatic and hard-hitting fact yelling attitude as me, with more or less articulation depending on the situation.
Juances: Read Klipik's entry. I've always viewed you two as hand-in-hand.
Sandwich-Hero: Infrequent poster who i do not have enough information to make a semi-accurate analysis of.

Anyway, adressing the post at hand, what's this version of the shotgun supposed to be adressing? What role/niche is it supposed to be filling? The roles I've seen suggested for the shotgun are usually:

Penetration for crowd damage, the gunner/swordsman's alternate to a Polaris
High damage for sword-like risk and DPS, the gunner/bomber's alternate to a sword
High knockback for defense and utility, especially for pure gunners
Piercing damage and movement while firing, the gunner's alternate to a Callahan

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 22:38

#10

Zeddy

You should probably take this back to the drawing board.

"the gun will have an initial short range 180 degree blast, probably 1/2 a square radius with minor knockback for the user and victim"
"Blast damage would be similar to a blast bomb's"

This part is okay I guess? Provided that was the gun's only effect, it would be okay. However, I should mention you're basically just describing Calibur here, except a bit stronger, covering a wider, yet shorter area, and with knockback involved for the user.

"Following the initial explosion, there will be a blaster-sized bullet, which has no knockback and can go through enemies. Range of about 8(?) squares with pure piercing damage."
"the bullet would do something like 4 antigua-line shots worth of damage."

This part is atrocious.

The bullet alone is stronger, reaches further, and has a severe advantage in general over Callahan by being able to cover multiple enemies in one shot.

It could work if the standard attack of the shotgun was merely the blast while the charge attack had the bullet in addition, but even then charging the gun would require at least all the drawbacks of doing the same with a Callahan.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 22:42

#11

Ustrinaferalthorn

@Hexzyle

I've been here for the better part of a month or so, usually staying in the General Discussion, Suggestion, or Bazaar section, hehe.

I do like your idea for a shotgun since it wouldn't be overpowered, a problem that most people fail to realize and properly think of how to balance it. Of course, in order to understand the concept of balance, you have to branch out to all three weapon classes. That takes a lot of time, cr, ce/orbs, & dedication, especially now that we have to forge our weapons, which is quite a stint in the upgrading process in gear for players who aren't too far in the game. This usually disheartens newcomers to the game to try and experience all the game has to offer until they have reached the endgame & have a substantial amount of funds.
I'm not saying the devs needs to change something about payouts, (seeing as how they already have with the difficulty modifier) I'm just saying that weapons need to be rebalanced so these newcomers feel more motivated to extend themselves. We already know that the devs are working on the rebalancing of guns, which is great & I am more than ready for this update, but I hope that bombs follow soon afterwards in January or February.
Bombs are just the most neglected weapons in the game. The armor types are limited to 2 defense types, the bombs themselves are pretty dull for the most part, and they just don't seem like a practical weapon to use solo (and I mean solely just bombs.) Swords? No problem. Guns? Not too bad. Bombs? FORGET IT!!! There are still a scant few who still give it their best shots, but I just do NOT see too many people who even would be able to be classified as bombers.
Once OOO rebalances and provides new armor for bombers, I will truly be happy with this game 100%. Right now, I'm at a firm 80, though it's getting bumped up with each announcement.

TL;DR:
I'm okay with shotguns as long as they are balanced.
Not many people know the complexities of balancing.
Guns are getting balanced.
Bombs need to be next.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 04:14

#12

Xxpapaya

The papaya is a papaya, duh

So the gun will be like...an Iron Slug with an extra...wait for it....BANG (:P) to it? :3

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 04:16

#13

Draycos

I wonder what you think of me?

Shotguns in SK are tricky to balance; they need to be strong enough to be better than other guns at close range, but slightly worse/harder to use when far away. Then you need to make sure it isn't too weak compared to a sword, and not so powerful it outclasses swords and then still functions as a gun.

A similar situation plagues the Winmillion, which is a sword-gun mutant that's slightly weaker than swords at melee and slightly weaker than guns at range. It ends up being pretty worthless since you can carry more than one weapon. But... it could be really OP if it got buffed just a little too much.

Your idea of a shotgun falls into the "better than everything at anything" side, where it outclasses guns and swords at the same time.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 06:53

#14

Kathrine-Dragon

Okay so basically nerf the

Okay so basically nerf the damage, make it normal type and make it the iron slug buff that was promised (replace iron slug with it). Sounds okay.

@HexZyle
I use this alt for less serious posts. You might recognize me as coelydragon. Funny thing is, I honestly recognized everyone on this thread except Nepetatheleo.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 06:41

#15

Bitsbee

Everyone?

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 08:37

#16

Ustrinaferalthorn

Funnier thing is that I haven't seen your main around the forums either.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 11:58

#17

Terra-Necro

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

Even funnier thing is that I hate Bitsbee's guts. But who cares about me?

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:00

#18

Bitsbee

Why do you hate me?

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:06

#19

Klipik-Forum

how does this not 100% overpower the Iron Slug, Callahan, and Winmillion? It is essentially a winmillion with longer range and that shoots through enemies. So why would you have one over the other?

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:11

#20

Terra-Necro

@Bitsbee

Because I wanna hug you, but I know you'll say no *o*

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:13

#21

Bitsbee

D'awww.

Come on everyone. Group Hug!

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:15

#22

Ustrinaferalthorn

Eeeheehee!

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:45

#23

Arkate

Shotguns.

A shotgun as an offensive weapon is far too difficult to balance with SK's damage system. A shotgun as a utility weapon is amazing however; Gunners have a massive weak spot at close range and have practically no way to defend themselves there. By making it a low damage, crazy knockback weapon you give gunners a really helpful utility. Shotguns as damage dealers in SK either end up being worse than any swords, better than any guns, or better than anything. Bombs are an entirely seperate way of playing, and Shotguns have no relation to them.

@Nepetatheleo
One month isn't long enough. Three is when you can start saying that people who have been around less than you lack fame and a rep.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 12:59

#24

Ustrinaferalthorn

@Arkate

The point is that you shouldn't put yourself on a pedastool if you're not well-known. It kind of makes you look like this. Besides, why the h should you care what people on the internet think about you? You don't know them. They don't know you. Seerusly, OP needs to get over themselves. Just come to the forums, say your piece, and go. No need to make all this fuss about your virtual popularity.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 13:06

#25

Little-Juances

"A shotgun as a utility weapon is amazing however; Gunners have a massive weak spot at close range and have practically no way to defend themselves there. By making it a low damage, crazy knockback weapon you give gunners a really helpful utility."

Or, you know, gunners could equip a sword for that.
If the shotgun is going to be a close range utility only for knocking purposes with weak damage, why not craft a troika?

We don't need a gun that does the job of a sword.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 13:09

#26

Arkate

@Juances.

For the same reason that if there was a beam gun introduced into the game, why would wolver users grab this beam gun in place of their brandish? BONUSES!!!

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:49

#27

Sandwich-Hero

Shotgun weapon...?

Autogun. Threadkill.

Feel free to revive this thread when you think Autoguns aren't shotguns, and prove it.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 03:44

#28

Dagunner

is it just me? or... is it a scuttle bot?

doesnt a close range spread gun remind you of a scuttle bot? the weakest, most pointless monster ever.
the gun would be like a sword only it has neither of the good things about a sword or gun. not to mention
it shouldn't be like a sword anyway, even if it would be good

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 13:56

#29

Geosmin

I don't think we _need_ a gun that does the job of a sword, or a sword that does the job of a gun, or a bomb... you get the idea, but we already do have both swords that serve as gun substitutes and guns that serve as sword substitutes, and they seem to be enjoyed a good deal. In light of the "gunner update" announcement, apparently whatever statistical data the developers are looking at say that guns don't look appealing enough to the average player, so I guess I can't argue against the idea of guns offering that knockback people seem to value so much. Don't get me wrong, I think knock is nice too, but I've learned that having wide dynamic ranges of options in terms of DPS and burst damage, all scaling nicely against range and mobility, means it's only when I derp embarrassingly hard that shield-bumping isn't enough for me.

So it's clear where I'm coming from, I'm starting to think that the sword class is more geared toward players who want a single loadout to do everything, while the gun class is more geared toward players who want to amass a large box of interestingly varied toys yet have them all be useful rather than redundant, so the difference is more a matter of taste than gameplay balance; I find it easy to believe that more people prefer the way it's easy to branch out into different sword types over the way branching out into different gun types requires more adjustment. Consider the "main" competitive weapons of each class: the Brandishes, Jelly Swords and Pierce swords all behave similarly enough that learning to use the other two after learning to use the first one is very easy, while the Blitz, Umbra/Nova, and Supernova all not only play differently, but also synergise differently with each other. We expect an experienced gunner to use a driver much differently when pairing it with another driver or with a Callahan than when pairing it with a Blitz, and differently still when pairing it with a Pulsegun, a Catalyser, or a Blaster, even if it's the same player using the same driver. Yes, similar nuance applies to swords too, but dramatically less so.

I could really get into a "shotgun" if it were a sort of complementary contrast with the Autoguns. What I'm thinking is, since I can instantly whip out my Pepperbox or Needler and fire it but have a significant cooldown before I can start moving, the uncharged attack lends itself best to use for finishing off monsters, so a new "shotgun" type should be the opposite way, lending itself to use as an opening attack. For that, either give it a wind-up time but little or no cooldown, or perhaps make its charge attack smaller but proportionately faster than an Autogun's so that the charge attack becomes the "main" attack as with Brandishes; I'm thinking Catalyser-like charge time, perhaps, which means the normal attack needs a whole new purpose. Putting the uncharged attack somewhere in the wide neighborhood of "feeling like an Alchemer or a Magnus" should cement this hypothetical shotgun as a more mobile, defensive alternative for more defensive play, kinda like the reputation the Magnus type gets. For that matter, I think the Magnus' aesthetics are perfect for having a "shotgun" implemented as a "handgun," so it all fits together nicely IMO. On a tangent, I think that defensive reputation is undeserved, as it seems the main utility of the Magnus is as an alternative Pierce weapon for peops who enjoy the dual-Alchemer playstyle.

Hm. For that matter, maybe I should think further on the "shotgun" idea, as offering more options to incentivise bothering to develop switch-shooting skill is an idea that I rather like, now that I've thought of it. Currently, I don't feel motivated to do so because the Auto & Alch playstyle is covering my needs rather nicely, and my Blitz-Nova combo looks just as purdy IMO as a switcher's most closely analogous option, Storm-Callahan.

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Time to kill my reputation