Title for reference.
Merchants, do you ever accept responsibility for running new players away from the game?
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 17:55
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:06
#2
Body for reference.
New players, do you realize that you are funding the merchants and thus this game?
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:07
#3
I don't understand. Please
I don't understand. Please expand.
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:09
#4
NOP
Anyone with a proper brain, like me should have already discovered the Auction house. I still remembered when I wanted to buy a cutter from the merchant (7500) when I was a noob, but I eventually bought it in the AH with 1K cr, an autogun for 800 and then a set of jelly mail for 2K, so that bascially got me equiped for snarby, this is all back then I don't even know what damage types are.
Now days, by reading the wiki and combine with some common sence, I produced an arsenal that is fit for any type of adventure. Common sence really, the game can be beaten with 1 shield(omega shell or volcanic plate), 5 pieces of gears ( helmet and armor, not 5 sets, 3 pieces of armor with ele/pierce/shadow defence and 2 pieces of helmet with split special defence ) and 4 weapons (3 of the weapon type that you wanted to be specialized in(ele/pierce/shadow), and 1 of the weapon type that you wanted to be generalized in (pure normal))
I really wanted to make my own combat manual for the noobs, but they are too pathetic (sturrborn and annoying, one of them used 11 SoL on a RJP elite run with me...), I sometimes just give up on them(oh look, another azure noob... and this one has levi and valiance too and he wanted to do vana)... just go read Bopp's guide or something and quit bothering me...
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:11
#5
@Midnight
What about ironmight plate shield, grey owlite, and crest of almire?
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:27
#6
@Arkate
Remember, the shields that I memtioned are the 'Jack of all trade' shields. And the build I mentioned is the Cheapest way you can beat the game, and for all that is worth, volcanic plate shield is actually quite good in FSC (the fire resistanc, duh). Those shield that you are mentioned are called specialized shield, they are designed for specific scenario, Ironmight=piecring, CoA=shadow, Grey owlite=elemental. Here, because I want the newbs to up save up money for better weapons, I want them get either a volcanic plate or omega shell to get them through the early missions (the T1, T2 are mostly normal damage, so yeah...) to save money.
Defensive < Offensive, this is the rule of Spiral Knights. You might as well put out a tons of damage before dying than just die and didn't put out any damage at all.
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 18:59
#7
I highly doubt a merchant can drive away a newbie if said newbie can't immediately afford a red rose set.
Unless you're referring to Strangers. Those guys are jerks.
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 20:39
#8
The only 'noob' I've ever
The only 'noob' I've ever traded anything to was someone who maxed their spending limit on the first day of playing.
This same guy purchased a fireburst asi med for 450kcr.
I told him that he should get his stuff price checked before blowing money on useless things.
He then went on to buy a clean combuster from me for 6kE, because 'heating stuff is boring'.
To be honest, unless they're spending money within the first few days of play, most 'noobs' can't afford anything above 75kcr.
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 21:01
#9
If people found the game fun and were playing for the game then nothing others can do should be able to drive players away. If the negative aspects of the player base could drive people away so easily then world of warcraft wouldn't have been the most successful MMO for so long.
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 20:59
#10
@kms-II
Wow,that guys sounds
@kms-II
Wow,that guys sounds like a kid who gets to drain his parents money down the toilet.
--------------
I don't see why people find the squire to knight ranks difficult.I've had difficulties but that was just the hall of heroes.
Also, I don't see much beggars anymore.I wonder why?
Wed, 10/09/2013 - 22:40
#11
most serious merchants deal in endgame stuff only.
Max UVs, rare costumes and accessories, ...
This is what people should work towards to AFTER they complete the main storyline.
So if you ask me if merchants keep new players away from the game, I'd say: only if those new players got their priorities wrong.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 02:42
#12
Merchant's Honor.
I'm a merchant and I personally am not fond of scaring away new players.
Some merchants might be, though I'm not one of them.
Using the vague/blunt term, "Merchants" is misleading. Since not all merchants are rude/mean/unreasonable/overpriced/ridiculous/etc.
I'm in the reasonable merchant category ^^
So is Poetry, Krns, and Feyi :D
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 05:00
#13
my 2 cents
Do noobs ever feel bad when people ragequit because they are so bad?
No.
We all done trades that we took advantage off, knowing that the person was noob (I bought a Prisma dapper combo 5k cr) but that's his problem for not price checking, if you check the archives of SK you might find a Thread made by me making fun of someone who sold the Book of Dark Ritual to a NPC. People are dumb, and that's not the merchant problem.
/wave raptor-zy
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 05:32
#14
"only if those new players
"only if those new players got their priorities wrong."
"People are dumb, and that's not the merchant problem."
These things are the problem. Scamming new players because "They should know better before they try to interact with other players" (which is dumb ----ing logic because they're new so no, they don't know better) in a social game is terrible. Not to mention jacking up the prices on everything to absurd levels and making new players go "everything is too damn expensive, I don't want to have to spend money or no life to get cool stuff".
"If the negative aspects of the player base could drive people away so easily then world of warcraft wouldn't have been the most successful MMO for so long."
World of Warcraft doesn't have a playerbase as bad as ours. Most people play World of Warcraft to play World of Warcraft, and the game is designed to where the best players have to earn their stuff through playing the game, whereas a sizable chunk of Spiral Knights players boot up the Spiral Knights client simply to try to cheat other players out of their wealth.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 05:51
#15
The problem here is that merchants ≠ scammers, semantically or otherwise. You might not agree with a merchant's prices, but the wares they deal in are a.) not necessary for in-game advancement (endgame UVs, LD gear, rare costumes, etc.) , and b.) don't get sold if there isn't a buyer willing to deal. A scammer, on the other hand, deliberately misrepresents themselves, their wares, in-game mechanics (unbind fees, etc.) to take advantage of other players. I know many, many longtime merchants, and one of the primary reasons they have persisted as merchants for such a long time is because they specifically avoid anything that might be construed as scamming. If you see scamming behavior, report it, but merchants are not to blame for running new players off--new players have substantially more access to gear and advancement than at any prior point in SK's development.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 07:10
#16
The biggest questions here: is withholding vital information and exploiting others' lack of information scamming? Is it perfectly fine? Is it within the rules, but an awful thing to do? And then, if it is awful, why is it okay?
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 07:59
#17
@Khamsin
9million players and although probably a lot less at this point its very likely whatever the number is that it dwarfs the Spiral Knights player base. Every person is an additional chance at being part of a bad player base.
Obviously, what is bad and what is good all comes down to personal opinion but there is no denying the odds.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:05
#18
@Writhes
"9million players and although probably a lot less at this point its very likely whatever the number is it dwarfs the Spiral Knights player base. Every person is an additional chance at being part of a bad player base. I think the odds are against you on this.
Then again what is bad and what is good all comes down to personal opinion however there is no denying the odds.
"
When's the last time you seen a situation where someone who was trying to take advantage of a new player was ganged up on by the rest of the players in /2 to set them straight? That NEVER happens in Spiral Knights. The population is so rotten, that scamming is the norm in this game, so nobody says anything about it.
It's a matter of proportions and attitudes of the population as a whole. In World of Warcraft for example, merchants make up a tiny fraction of the playerbase, whereas Sprial Knights has a large number of scammers.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:11
#19
What Draycos said.
I find it really awful to take advantage of newbies that know nothing about merchanting. Like... How can you justify that?
@Shamanala:
We all done trades that we took advantage off
Nope, talk about yourself.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:20
#20
HOHOHOHOHOHO!
This gives me an idea. Why don't we make haven into parts like slums where beggars,trolls and scammers are set to spawn at.
The Grand Bazaar where players can set up shop stalls to place weapons for trading(enables selling items even when you're offline). You must get a merchant badge,etc first(AH would be better of in this section).
Town center where players can gather up for contests or group chats,etc.
Outskirts for vistas.
I know this isn't the place for ideas but it'll probably help even if a little bit,about the scamming,trolling,begging issues.
---
@dragneel
The AH has been used to take advantage of desperate players.
---
P.S. when's the ancient pages available for collection?
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:23
#21
Painful memories
I, too, have been scammed by merchants and I will always bear that hatred in my heart. I have made it clear my approval in making some rare items available in the supply depot.
It is strange that in some aspects Spiral Knights is as much as an mmorpg and a market simulation game as well.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:40
#22
You're awfully biased; in that you almost equate merchants with scammers.
Narfle put it well, I agree.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:44
#23
@Feyi
"You're awfully biased; in that you almost equate merchants with scammers.
Narfle put it well, I agree.
"
So you're telling me if someone asked to buy something from you, you'd let them know how much the item was really worth, and then how much you're charging? You'd refer someone to the Supply Depot if they had an item you were trying to sell for cheaper, rather than try to take advantage of their lack of information about it?
Most people in this game wouldn't. It's the nature of merchants in this game.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:55
#24
I keep my prices at the general market price for the item yes.
Wether I sell them to a veteran or a noob, those prices remain the same.
I have corrected people's buyouts on numerous accounts, as well as given them price checks.
I know this holds true for most respected merchants.
Example: someone on the bazaar was underselling a BKC shock MAX.
It's a desirable item, I could've just bought it and resold. Instead, I let the person know he was underselling.
There are no rules for accessories, costumes, and UV gear.
The only rule there is is demand and supply.
All in all you come across as someone who has been wronged by a merchant, and now decides to generalize all of us to scammers.
It isn't naming and shaming, but it's close.
Those new players you talk about? You're given them false information just as well by posting this biased thread. Uncool bro, uncool.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:07
#25
Would you like some whine with this cheese?
I agree with Feyi. This whole thread is just rude and discouraging to any new players, & frankly insulting to the honest people. You just created a thread generalizing anyone with stuff to sell as scammers with vendettas out to steal all your cr when it couldn't be any further from the truth. Yeah, there are some people out there who are less than honorable, but it's not the whole community's fault. In fact, it's been more under my impression that most scammers get reported and kicked from the game.
My thoughts: Graveyard this. This is just no more than a very biased, whiny thread, and it's embarrassing to read through this.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:19
#26
My two cents
I've done a little merchanting from time to time. The best policy is to assume no one knows the market value of your wares and that everyone is to lazy to check until after the purchase. Sell your wares near market price so you that you cheat neither yourself nor your buyers.
Why?
Because it's the right thing to do. As a rule of thumb, if you feel a twinge of guilt for buying something too cheaply or selling something too costly, don't make the transaction.
The Auction House, however, is fair game because you can't identify the sellers.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:22
#27
Your love has got me looking so crazy your touch got me so crazy
Lol so you are upset players are attempting to make profit....Dude I hope you live in a box since last time I checked everyone attempts to profit I went to the store to buy a protein shake it cost me 8 dollars, but I know it cost the guy about 2 dollars to make my shake for me....WTF he SUCH A SCAMMER!!! Its called supply and demand. If you do not like my price or my offer you dont accept it. Not knowing the price of an item or selling an item to a player for more than what it is worth isnt a merchants fault. It is the players fault for not doing their research.
The Real-World and the Online-World is pretty much the same if you dont know the market or understand it people will take advantage of you. If you walk into a car dealership and offer 30k on a car what they are willing to sell for at least 20k, but you are 2 lazy to negotiate the price, or even do your research its your loss their profit.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:30
#28
.
" This is just no more than a very biased, whiny thread, and it's embarrassing to read through this."
That lol when a terrible poster tries to say your thread is embarrassing to read.
@njthug
A game =/= real life. Also, in real life, people have parents, which generally guide them and let them know how things in the world work. In Spiral Knights, your first encounters with other players can involve them trying to scam you out of any energy you might possibly have.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:42
#29
@Khasmin
Have you any more rational replies to the arguments made on this thread? I've seen some good points on both sides.
Regarding your argument about real life, consider it a matter of perspective. Computer games exist in real life. Their existence is limited to electronic memory and the computer screen, but that is not the same as failing to exist at all.
More relevant to this discussion is the existence of players. They most certainly do exist in real life, even if their in-game avatars have no existence beyond an electronic signal. Players interact with each other vicariously through their avatars, and they have attributed meaning and significance to the 'fake' electronic world. Whatever your opinions of such a state, it is just as real as the rest of the world, and you cannot excuse unethical behavior by claiming otherwise.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:38
#30
I crashed my car into the bridge. I watched, I let it burn. <69
@Khamsin --- You can always ask your guild mates, friends, merchants who offer price-checks, your parents in-real life for advice, or search the forums for the item you are selling. It isnt a merchants fault if you are not doing enough research or just dont feel like using the resources given to all players. If your example is energy just look at the energy market, and do simple math. If you cant do basic math you probably dont meet the Sk age requirements <69. Also if you dont wish to use the real-world references its okay.
Lets use this example:
You buy a mewkat pocket from the vendor (lets say the vendor is in haven anyone can buy from the vendor), and now a player is offering 100k more crowns than the vendor price, and you sell it to him. It isnt your fault this player doesnt realize the vendor is back....all they had to do was go to haven and check, ask their friends, even could of went to trade chat and asked around, but they feel they are getting a good deal and are content at the time and point so they click accept trade. The merchant isnt the one scamming especially if the player is the one to offer this.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:40
#31
Honestly... merching really grinds me gears.
I'd been saving an unbound Humbug Hat for almost a year now. Decided to sell it before winterfest came back. Took a while to find anyone interested, but the only people who were interested tried to haggle me down to like half the price. When I finally did settle for a good 20k less than I wanted, it took all of 5 minutes for me to see the exact person I sold the hat to, trying to sell a Humbug Hat for about 50% more than what I just sold it for.
It's like lawyers. They're an important part of society and they are really awesome when they are on your side... but they really can be total scumbags.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:41
#32
@Thinslayer
"I've done a little merchanting from time to time. The best policy is to assume no one knows the market value of your wares and that everyone is to lazy to check until after the purchase. Sell your wares near market price so you that you cheat neither yourself nor your buyers.
Why?
Because it's the right thing to do. As a rule of thumb, if you feel a twinge of guilt for buying something too cheaply or selling something too costly, don't make the transaction."
This is a respectable approach to trading. Sadly, as far as I've seen, the majority do not conduct themselves in this way.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:49
#33
What's the point of this anyway?
So what? What are you going do if we "accept" responsibility anyway? A game=/= real life right?
If you want to help this problem you should post some guides in the "new recruits" section. I hope you do.
I'm not a merchant, but I am an economist.
Two Rules of Economics
-Unlimited wants
-Limited resources
Your post is about merchants making trades with new inexperienced players that largely benefit the merchant's side. If they've already bought money to support the game and are making trades because they can't wait that was a rational choice. If they made an unequal trade without making themselves aware of prices and resources that's not all on the merchants fault. Of course they're gonna take the deal.
You've made some good arguments in other posts Khamsin, but don't accuse us of driving people away from his game. Forum posters are usually people who care about the game anyway, not scammers; you're shouting at the wrong crowd. Find those scammers and address them, not us as a whole.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 09:51
#34
I don't see what the problem is.
@28: The first thing they should be taught in real life is "don't trust strangers." And that applies even more so to online strangers who you can't even see.
But what problem are you referring to, specifically? Scammers or merchants? In general, the people actively trying to scam aren't actual merchants, just people who want to take advantage of new people. Actual merchants know that doing anything sketchy gets your name broadcast on Zone and Trade chats and nobody will want anything to do with you anymore.
The number of scammers you see are much less common than other MMO's, at least in my experience. Strangers are a lot more friendlier and helpful overall.
As for what was stated in #14, what are you referring to in the game that is too expensive? It is pretty clear that anything essential for gameplay is rather affordable or free as long as you are running missions and clockworks, and their prices never go up. The only things that command a high fee are UVs and Accessories, neither of which are required to advance through the missions or beat Vanaduke.
The only exception are the Orbs of Alchemy and Forging system, which is more of an issue with OOO not making it clear/intuitive enough how they work in terms of weapon advancement. Expect to see a lot of "where can I find x orb / y crystal" shouts in Haven.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:00
#35
" This is just no more than a very biased, whiny thread, and it's embarrassing to read through this."
That lol when a terrible poster tries to say your thread is embarrassing to read.
I like this one. It's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem.
It shows me you're not that great at argumentation. But so did the rest of your thread to be honest.
Where is your evidence? Where are your statistics?
All there is to see here is based on your personal opinion which sadly, isn't worth that much against the rational arguments people bring.
You have freedom of speech on your side to keep this thread, but I do hope common sense urges you to graveyard it.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:07
#36
@Feyi
"Where is your evidence? Where are your statistics? "
Personal observation. I'm a statistician myself, I wouldn't have made this thread if I didn't feel that I hadn't seen enough of this to make judgment. Maybe those who primarily use the bazaar on this forum are more honorable, but in game, /2 generally lends itself to scammy behavior that generally runs unchecked.
As far as ad hominem, if I was using it to render an argument invalid, you'd have a point. His whole post was merely an appeal to emotion in the first place, so it wasn't a logical fallacy at all since I wasn't using it to defend my argument.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:08
#37
@Khamsin
Says the person who thinks saying ' lol ' will prove even further that this is even a serious discussion.
I don't usually find myself arguing with you, but frankly, this really is not one of your best posts. Like Toeni said, if you have such a problem with this, you can just post a guide in the New Recruits forum. If you don't think that's going to work, why don't you just create your own guild specifically for teaching new players about the game economy? That's kind of what my guild is for, as well as helping with gear. My gm's have done quite a bit of good, as well as myself (or at least we'd like to think so) but the difference between this thread and a guild is taking action.
I'm not doubting that there are bad people in this game with ill-intent, just the fact that they outnumber the good players. I myself have seen one scam gone down, but ironically enough, all the people in Haven saw it and actually did gang up on him. He was banned from the game the next day. One of my friends actually took a screenshot of it:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=179474791
Anyways, I actually do plan on making a PSA video for new knights once I do a little more research. My old info about beginner players is outdated due to the Energy update.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:19
#38
A statistician without stats is just a person.
I can't just take your word for it that it's some statistic we all fit into. Merchants are not scammers, scammers can be merchants.
Some of us are righteous people, others look out for only themselves.
You've had your say, and we're heard it. Go do something about it.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:25
#39
@Toeni
"A statistician without stats is just a person."
Clever. And you're right about your last sentence. There's not much discussion left to be had. Either people will accept what they've done, or they won't. I'm graveyarding this.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:27
#40
Merchants aren't scammers. People are scammers. You can't use your knowledge or profession as an excuse for your dishonesty.
Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:39
#41
@Hex
"Merchants aren't scammers. People are scammers."
People are scammers, and Merchants are People, therefore, Merchants are scammers. QED
(Although it would be more correct to say that scammers are people)
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 10:29
#42
@khamsin
Actually,I have done many trades in which i'd take an item and crowns from a costumer,craft the requested item with it then give the crafted wep to the costumer.Some did the trade without suspecting a scam but one warned me that he'll report me.I don't like scamming players but I do favour selling recipes and other items for a convincingly expensive price.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 13:59
#43
If I'm a merchant and I've
If I'm a merchant and I've been scammed 20kE (vinnie-graz), does that make me a deserving victim or something?
I usually try to tell people if they're offering something that is utterly ridiculous (I've gotten flamed by a person trying to buy a silver key for 15E off of a noob, and then called a variety of derogatory names).
In my previous trades, I've put up my scissor blades as collateral for 4kE unbind costs, when I have very little funds.
I usually go first for mail trades as well, until Vinnie scammed me. I don't do mail trades unless you have a solid reputation, but that's simply because not all scammers are merchants, and vice versa.
Your previous logic - it assumes all people are merchants. Therefore...
Khamsin, you're a merchant and a scammer?
:<
&& Raptor-Zy <3
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 15:28
#44
"Khamsin, you're a merchant
"Khamsin, you're a merchant and a scammer?"
Clearly.
:P
You think anyone would actually admit to that?
(Reserving judgement on whether it's a valid accusation or not.)