why is it that people continue to use only swords?
If guns are so overpowered,
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 17:45
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 21:19
#2
Guns will let you win fights against tough opponents.
Swords will let you farm large amounts of damage against weak opponents.
Guess which one people care about.
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 21:40
#3
^ +1
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 22:30
#4
@Zeddy
That's... perfect. Now I feel really dumb. Thank you.
@Voza-Il
this is about LD, hence the thread's placement in the coliseum
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 23:06
#5
Zeddy summed up my thoughts on the matter perfectly.
I still stand by my belief that gunners are sleeper OP in Lockdown even before this "balance patch".
Sat, 10/12/2013 - 23:51
#6
@Whimsicality
I still stand by my belief that people are just fussy that there are different playstyles to master.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 00:26
#7
I can't gun for poop, huehue.
A bad gunslinger doesn't have any safety. You will reach him and he will die because he can't do anything once you're in melee range. He will either shoot straight at you or where he expects you to be, following him. To counter that, all you have to do is go straight at where they will be, often very easy to see as they move in a circle.
A good gunslinger predicts predictions and is very hard to beat.
A Dutch Oven roflstomps everything and everyone and beating him would get you 1x Nobel Prize(s) in physics because it's easier to travel at the speed of light than it is to beat Dutch.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 06:37
#8
@This Discussion
1 on 1 a gunner might beat a swordie more often than not, but in a 2 on 2 situation two swordies assisting on one target is way more dangerous than a gunner and swordie assisting on one target. In a group of 3+ the gunners benefit becomes even more marginalized.
As for why people continue to use swords? Because being a gunner is actually hard. You have to know when to fight and when not to fight, and it's not as obvious as when you're a swordie.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 07:17
#9
@Topic: Why? Because gunshot errors everywhere. Because latency affects guns more than it affects swords.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 07:24
#10
@Khamsin
Any amount of swordsmen are chanceless to a gunslinger and a bomber.
Nobody likes bombs though, hence everyone just goes swords.
@Topic
If guns aren't so overpowered, how come almost nobody don't have one?
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 07:49
#11
@Alpha Oh right...my B
Guns
@Alpha Oh right...my B
Guns arent that OP tho. I mean, the dmg isnt anything special. Plus, with striker speed, usually you can fake out a striekr gunner.
But gunners who switvh shoot are pretty lethal. Just spam pulsar and u win.
I uave gunned in LD before. My best was 16k DMG (Loadout was Shadowsun set, Storm driver asi H, Callahan, Supernova).
Sniping with callahan is soooo satisfying....But anyways, gunners compared to swordies? Comparing equal skill levels of each player (Lets say, blueflood vs. Ancientdragon), ancient would win. Gun shots are fairly easy to predict and dodge, and asi vh swords with striker class require exxtremely fast reflexes to dodge.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 10:42
#12
@Voza
Just no, Ancient Dragon is just a 3 hit combo bump, easy to predict, specially for my buddy Blueflood.
Guns are indeed O.P if you know how to combine them, specially fast guns like Valiance and Antigua line, add AT and a good conection and they will cut every single attack you try.
After guns update, LD will change a lot if they don't create more useless guns.
@ Feyi
That's a good fact, me and my 250-450 ping, makes impossible the use of a Valiance, antigua line.
Auto target only helps good ping players in guns case, the only exception I remember, was my girl Br-girl (250ping), the second best gunner I ever fought after Hondo.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 13:11
#13
My thoughts
+1 Zeddy
Which is why skilled gunners > equally skilled swordsman in Lockdown. Assuming all other factors (like connection) are equal.
@Khamsin
I would argue that your statement is only true because less people use guns and therefore there are fewer skilled gunners.
Three (heck even two) skilled alchemer gunners targeting one enemy in LD is enough to keep him/her in constant flinching, not to mention status.
Three swordsman will need to accurately time their strikes to gain the same tactical advantage. Plus, the defending enemy could potentially damage all three with a properly timed attack. In the gunner case, they would probably get a chance to fire one inaccurate bullet at most (assuming they have a gun in the first place).
I like to think of guns as jabby swords with very narrow angular range and very long linear range. The narrow angular range is a con, but the superior linear range allows it to outclass all swords if the user has good aim.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 13:21
#14
I always get the feeling the people who post here don't play LD.
Cradarc, do you think swordsmen are walking meat bags for you to pew pew at?
They can dodge as well. If they dodge long enough to get in close range, chances are you're pretty much done.
Neither guns or swords are OP, they can only be OP in the right hands.
Also: limiting yourself to only guns/swords isn't the best tactic. Hybrid is the way to go.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 14:01
#15
Since I was called out
@Voza: I've fought Ancientdragon several times. He's quick to single me out for good reason and I don't blame him. As for beating people in a team game... I never put much weight on a player for 1v1 in a team game, especially when there are so many variables and people with downright godlike advantages with connection speed or pc perfomance. I'm all about giving props for smart play and exploiting your opponent when he has his guard down though.
Ancientdragon among others has easily half my ping, which makes it near impossible for me to judge latency distance with any bullet as well as giving them that little bit of ghost range and greater reaction time to what I do. So it's smart for them to take care of me when I gun first as having distance I can spray damage at him safely, while the average player they can dance around at close range slashing away since their opponent will be swinging in their wake.
Honestly I usually carry a flourish as a standard side arm just to punish a swordsman for missing their swing. It's way more accurate since you actually see the sword connecting on your screen. Bullets... besides the slow movers like polaris and biohazard you really have to shoot based on the individual players latency, which is silly but fun at the same time. The actual bullet rarely makes contact if the player is in motion... but you guys know this :)
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 15:10
#16
@Feyi
"Cradarc, do you think swordsmen are walking meat bags for you to pew pew at?
They can dodge as well. If they dodge long enough to get in close range, chances are you're pretty much done.
Neither guns or swords are OP, they can only be OP in the right hands.
Also: limiting yourself to only guns/swords isn't the best tactic. Hybrid is the way to go."
Dat quality post.
A gunner not carrying a sword or a swordie not carrying a gun is senselessly gimping yourself out, since the marginal benefit of the fourth gun or the fourth sword is heavily outweighed by the utility of an extra weapon type.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 15:21
#17
@you you and you
@Feyi-Feyi>Because gunshot errors everywhere. Because latency affects guns more than it affects swords.
This is my point exactly. They're harder to use, yet people whine about them being OP.
@Voza-Il>But gunners who switvh shoot are pretty lethal. Just spam pulsar and u win.
Polaris is not a gun.
@Voza-Il>Gun shots are fairly easy to predict and dodge, and asi vh swords with striker class require exxtremely fast reflexes to dodge.
Reflex will do you nothing against ASI VH swords unless you have a ping of, like, 30ms. Dodging that requires a pretty heavy amount of prediction and staying the heck out of range.
@Cradarc>I like to think of guns as jabby swords with very narrow angular range and very long linear range.
And bombs are just round swords with a very wide angular and long linear range! Now we know what's really OP.
@Cradarc>Three swordsman will need to accurately time their strikes to gain the same tactical advantage. Plus, the defending enemy could potentially damage all three with a properly timed attack. In the gunner case, they would probably get a chance to fire one inaccurate bullet at most (assuming they have a gun in the first place).
In the gunner case, the solitary defending player needs to recognize that sometimes(just sometimes) being outnumbered is a serious disadvantage anyway. I almost never survive a 1v3 as a gunner, even if I land every shot and last 20 seconds.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 16:32
#18
@Alphappy
Attack execution speed* is also a factor. Your bomb analogy is perfectly valid, except if a bomb were a sword, it's swing would be delayed more than a Troika. If a bomb were a sword, it's attack recoil would be zero (can charge bomb before bomb detonates), but it's execution time is very long compared to a normal sword (takes a while for bomb to detonate). A gun is interesting. It's execution time at point blank is as fast as a flourish, but grows longer the farther away the target is (since the bullet takes time to move). Most guns have max execution times that are shorter than that of bombs.
That being said, if you can find a bomb that detonates as fast as a gun can shoot, then yes, it would be OP. Just imagine a Nitrome spammer that produces twice as many explosions per minute as a max CTR bomber can produce now.
*I'm not talking about ASI (which reduces recoil time), I'm talking about the time between pressing the button and the sword making the arc. Flourish and brandish "executes" faster than SS and troika regardless what ASI is involved.
That last quote you took from my post was not addressing you. If you read Khamsin's post, you will realize he was talking about how 3 swordsman can kill more efficiently than 3 gunners. The focus is not on the defender, the focus is on the attackers. 3v1 is unfair by definition, there's no question about that.
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I also want to clarify, I don't believe gunners are better than all the other classes in LD. Just because guns can kill much more efficiently doesn't mean everyone is skilled enough to use it to do so. Gunners also have a hard time capping points while in combat. Because gunners have to maintain distance, a swordsman can easily chase one off a point and "dodge dance" while capping the point.
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 16:26
#19
@Feyi
My quote: "Which is why skilled gunners > equally skilled swordsman in Lockdown. Assuming all other factors (like connection) are equal."
Your quote: "Neither guns or swords are OP, they can only be OP in the right hands."
^I think we are in agreement about skill playing a role in how powerful a weapon is.
What is easier to dodge?
1) ~2 bullets that fly at you every second
2) a guy boosting at you
Even if striker boost is as fast as a bullet, you don't have to worry about another "bullet" coming your way. The thing with dodging gunners is that the bullets come continuously while strikers only get one "bullet" (ie. their boost)
Gunners have to dodge the single striker "bullet" while the swordsman has to dodge the stream of little bullets. If both are equally good at dodging, most likely the swordsman will get hit more. Furthermore, you can hurt the striker "bullet" with a sword/gun if you see it coming. There is nothing, short of dodging, you can do about an alchemer bullet coming your way.
If you still have any doubts, ask a bomber. If caught off guard, they must charge a bomb while being assaulted. Would it be harder to do so facing a swordsman or a gunner of equal skill?
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 17:02
#20
"If guns are so overpowered,"
ummm... since when?
Sun, 10/13/2013 - 18:46
#21
.
@Cradarc>The focus is not on the defender, the focus is on the attackers.
ohh, whoops, I see what you mean now. I put the focus on the defender because that's usually the one whining.
@Klipik>ummm... since when?
Since everyone complains about it. Peruse these forums and watch LD and you'll quickly see what I mean. I'd give you a few references if I was sure it wouldn't violate the forum rules.
The wealth of information already present in this thread tells me that the most likely reason guns are said to be overpowered is simply that there are more things to dodge that also have a longer range, without once giving thought to the disadvantages that they still have(much lower damage; delayed or with a slower "attack execution speed" than swords; requires aim; penalty of accidental "combo" is far greater in guns than in swords).
Mon, 10/14/2013 - 03:26
#22
@Blue
Oh, ok. My bad. I
@Blue
Oh, ok. My bad. I thought he was good since I used to play him and a few others (rdzknightz, and tons of other good duskers), and i has a troika and salamander set. I could beat everyone. Except him.
Hm....ah well, guess I will say skybrandon or some other asi vh pro against u.
Swords vs guns: swords would still win (top gunner vs top swordie vs top bomber: Skybrandon beats blueflood who beats....Rotten-tomato? )
Yeah...
Swords outdps guns. And woth eemies having the AI of a 1 month old donkey, you need not worry about the safety cushion provided by gunner ranyed attacks.
As an example, take a blitz needle and a WRH. Even with the blitz needle's insane dps (no uvs0, WRH will still destroy zombies faster because it is even higher.
Swords still outdps guns. Not sure where you heard that guns are OP from, considering they are weak in compqrson to swords.
And for the inevitable alchemer advocatr who is about to rage post about the Nova Driver/Storm driver ricochets, try compqring that to a voltedge charge. Charge clearly beats the silly ricochets.
ASSUMING NO UVS
F THIS %&#&%@ KEYBOARD