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Pull the plug on sinks! (literally)

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Sun, 05/22/2011 - 06:26
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox

I'm very keen on new material and crown sinks for the game. There's a couple we know we want to do and there's likely a couple that will materialize if I read a gazillion or two more suggestions :) ~Nick

Nick appears to be interested in sinks.
Not for any particular reason, other than that he likes to wash his hands.

But I suppose making two suggestion threads that are only about an hour apart won't kill this forum too bad, so I'll post some ideas for Crown and Material sinks that I think would work.

1. The Invent-Mo-Tron

Suggestion for my suggestion: Make a better name for Invent-Mo-Tron.

Basically, the Invent-Mo-Tron has no formula to creation like the Alchemy Machine does.
At least no visible one.

Instead, you have to randomly put materials in it. Depending on the number of materials deposited and their rarity, you will also be charged a certain amount of Crowns as well.

The result is different depending on the things you put in there:

  • A random, higher rarity material.
  • A special item box (like a Gachapon)
  • A specific pet item
  • Or Invent-Mo-Tron specific cosmetic gear

Now like I said, there aren't any visible formulas. So discovering how to make certain items may require a large amount of materials and things. This would only be temporary, so the addition of items to the Invent-Mo-Tron tables, as well as the randomisation of certain results (like the Item Box) would create a rewarding kind of sink to the game.

I will explain the results of depositing items in more detail now:

High Rarity Materials: This one is fairly simple to explain. Sticking a certain number of lower level materials in will create higher level ones. Obviously the amount deposited would have to make this a less feasible way to obtain items, but it would be another way for players to circumvent the RNG to get rarer materials. It would also mean people with lots of shards and other items would be able to turn them into other items, which may also be used in the Invent-Mo-Tron, basically sucking out all the high rate junk from the game.

Item Boxes: These are special boxes that, based on rarity, have a chance to dole out cool items. They might be regular items with normally unobtainable UVs, special Cosmetic Items from previous events or other nice things.
The main idea behind the Item Box is to have the required items to create change every now and then, but within a certain parameter.
Say, it's always a combination of 2/3 items that have a 3 or lower star rating.
This means people can experiment for them and sink crowns and materials.
The Item Box rarity changes on a random chance, so you could get a 1-star box or a 5-star box as well.

Pets: This is something I thought would bring a big incentive to the Invent-Mo-Tron. It creates pets.
I had the idea from MAGs in Phantasy Star, but I hated the idea of grinding and evolving a robot like it was a Pokemon.
So instead, you feed Invent-Mo-Tron and it creates Pets.
The Pets you create are deployed by equipping them then pressing the corresponding "Summon" button.
They have multiple uses, however if they die they cannot be summoned again until the next floor.

Each Pet has it's own uses.
To get upgraded versions of Pets, you need to use the Pet item you gained as long as certain Materials to upgrade it.
If it fails, you lose the other Materials but keep the Pet item.
Pets don't gain heat and they count as a summon.
You can only summon one pet and you cannot change pets in outside of Terminals, Subtowns and Haven.
They also count as a summon so it reduces the number of Mechaknight Kits you can activate.

I'm not going to go into specific pets, since there isn't much point.
But I may make another thread for those.

Cosmetic Items: The Invent-Mo-Tron isn't just an inventor, in her spare time she also designs the latest fashions.
You can use the Invent-Mo-Tron, to not only create Cosmetic Versions of items (by depositing the same items as you would with the original recipe), but it has it's own ones as well.
I think allowing people to create Cosmetic Versions of in-game items this way would be a real crown and material sink, since that is a lot of the reason people make multiple sets, just to use them as Costumes.
Taking the 800 energy cost out of it would make it more viable now.

Any combination that does not result in success will result in a random material up to the same rarity as the highest rarity item deposited.
So you can deposit items and turn them into other items. but it will still cost you crowns.

2. Guildhalls

Here's some ideas that would help sink crowns in Guilds:

Clockwork Rotation: Your Guild joins the rotation of levels. This does't mean other players will randomly end up in your Guildhall, but rather that at Terminals, you will go down into your Guildhall instead of the Terminal.
The party leader (if they have a Guild) will decide if you go to the Terminal or Guildhall.
There will still be a Basil, but his recipes will be different depending on what level he is.
If the Guild in question spent the money to get an Alchemy Machine and a good Basil, it means your Guildhall will become a default choice for Terminals.
Something worth working towards outside of PvP.

Basil: The Guild Basil will operate outside of the Clockworks in the Guild as well, but he will only take items and not sell them.
Giving him certain items will increase his shop level and as a result, make him offer better quality items from Guild Terminal Rotations.
He will act the same as the other Basil in most ways (not being teleportable, etc.), but he will also have a Control Panel from the Guild after he reaches a certain level. Once he receives a certain number of items you will be able to change his algorithm for generating items slightly, towards certain item types. So if you're looking for a certain helmet, he might have a greater chance of having helmets appear if you select the helmet option.

Guild Alchemy Machine: This Alchemy Machine is Members Only and will offer up some unique stuff if you level it up (by crafting items at it).
You will be able to save a certain number of recipes to the Machine, which will allow Members to Craft Items at it without having the Recipe as long as they are stored there.
You will get a greater chance at UVs down the line.
Eventually, at a high level, you will be able to combine UV items with non UV items to transfer over the UV as well.
So if you crafted a Haze Bomb with CTR MAXIMUM you could slap that UV onto a Calibur or something.
Weapon UVs can only be put on other Weapons and Armour UVs can only be transfered to other Armour.
Fusing items costs a lot of Crowns depending on the items being fused.
You may also need to pay extra if the items are very different in star level, doubling the cost for each star different.
So to put a Haze Bomb UV onto a Gran Faust would cost you 8x the amount, where putting it on the Sealed Sword would cost 4x.

Guild Repository: This is a place where members can store items. Though it isn't like a Bank where you put and withdraw items.
The Repository allows you to donate items to the Guild. The Guild can then offer up items to players in certain amounts to people of a certain rank.
The Guild Master and other ranks with the control level, will be able to modify the items.
So, say, your Guild has a certain Dress Code.
You could make up the costume items at Invent-Mo-Tron and allow people of a certain rank who join the guild to have access to that item.
Maybe basic unbound equipment too or whatever.

Guild Vendors: Unlike Basil, these guys will sell whenever you access the Guildhall.
You can buy items from them and they offer more competitive buy prices for items than other merchants.
They sell Guild Only items too when you reach certain Guild Requirements.
Guild Requirements meaning acquiring certain levels on Guild Utilities, hitting membership requirements and keeping certain numbers of members for certain periods of time, etc.

Guild Expansions: These are going to be essential later on, as the game gets bigger.
Expanding your Guild will give you 10 extra slots for Membership.
The cost for expanding will double each time you expand, so hitting the hard maximum limit for expansions will cost a fair bit.
I think 200 is a fair limit, since I have rarely seen Guilds of over 30 active members in F2P games.

Anyway, that's it for Guilds.

3. Lottery

I think this is also a good way to sink crowns.

Having an in-game Lottery, with rare in-game prizes will get people entering like crazy.
Since 1000 people will be entering in the Lottery and only a few people win.

Pretty easy, really.

I don't really have any other ideas that would be as concrete as these.
Considering the other ideas I have for sinks rely mostly on content we are yet to see in the game.
So this is it for now.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 07:26
#1
Khaim
Legacy Username
Nice post

Good ideas, well written, if anything you've put too much stuff into one post.

I think the random-Alchemy machine would be a nice mat sink, although it probably doesn't need as many different options as you've listed. Pets should probably be vanity items and thus include a high Energy cost, so shouldn't be random-Alch drops. But granting costume pieces is a great idea.

Item boxes seem unnecessary; why not just give the item directly? We probably don't want to give out high-star items, by the way; that's an important energy sink and should not be circumvented. Likewise, "special" UVs shouldn't be energy-free unless they are also cosmetic-only.

Your ideas about guild-upgraded Basil and Alchemy stations are interesting, but I don't think they'd be that great. We don't want to penalize people who aren't in a guild; offering an increased UV chance to guildies is rather unfair to everyone else. Changing the recipe drop pattern isn't bad but it's also not very useful and, like all RNG-adjustments, will probably be too subtle for people to notice or care.

I do like the idea of shared guild recipes. Assuming that we're not going back to unbind-on-craft (and I'm still hoping) this would be a way to bring back a small aspect of social crafting. I would suggest that saving a recipe to the guild Alchemy machine requires a recipe item (unlearned), a non-trivial amount of crowns (3-5x the recipe cost), and only lasts for a month. Permanently storing recipes seems a bad idea, although it might work if the cost was very high (10-25x recipe's crown cost plus an energy cost).

Guild Bank has been suggested before, but is still a good idea.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 12:29
#2
OnmyojiOmn
Legacy Username
That's not what literally

That's not what literally means.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 21:10
#3
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
@Khaim: if anything you've

@Khaim:

if anything you've put too much stuff into one post.

I was just trying to condense my ideas to be relevant to the topic.
Which is Crown and Material Sinks

I think the random-Alchemy machine would be a nice mat sink, although it probably doesn't need as many different options as you've listed.

Well my way of thinking was, why separate similar functions?

Each of the ideas could be their own suggestion, but why separate them?
It would just serve to make things more complicated in game.

Pets should probably be vanity items and thus include a high Energy cost, so shouldn't be random-Alch drops.

Yeah, I have a feeling they will be vanity items and not functional things.
But I thought it would be cool to be able to summon mini-NPCs like the MySynths from PSU.
Or have little monsters that attack stuff.
Also they're not random alchs, the Pets just follow a non-visible formula.

I think the transparent aspect of crafting would diminish the requirement for Energy, since it's sole purpose would be to spit out mostly not completely useful stuff in order to suck high-rate garbage out of the game.

This and the fact that functional summons like Mechaknights can be dropped in dungons, and buying them with Energy wouldn't really be right.
Maybe if they were offered as rewards for buying CE like the Rose Regalia was, but their usefulness/appearance just wouldn't be worth paying real money just to acquire.

But granting costume pieces is a great idea.

It probably won't happen because of the way costumes function now, but I thought it would be fairer since you have to craft purely for vanity items now instead of just buying them with excess CE/Crowns.

Item boxes seem unnecessary; why not just give the item directly?

Pretty simple, because you can't create cosmetic weapons or functional armor using similar formulas to ones appearing recipes with the machine.
All non-used recipe combinations would be for machine only vanity items.
The recipe itself for item boxes is purely for sinking crowns and things.
Rather than real money, like most Gachapons usually are.

We probably don't want to give out high-star items, by the way; that's an important energy sink and should not be circumvented. Likewise, "special" UVs shouldn't be energy-free unless they are also cosmetic-only.

Well the items wouldn't be high-star, they would just have normally unobtainable UVs attached to them.
Like Movement Speed: Low or Health Bonus: +X.
They would be super low-rate to acquire, in order to sink crowns and materials, once again.

Your ideas about guild-upgraded Basil and Alchemy stations are interesting, but I don't think they'd be that great. We don't want to penalize people who aren't in a guild; offering an increased UV chance to guildies is rather unfair to everyone else.

Well people who are in a guild don't receive any benefits whatsoever.
They want people to consider Tier 3 content 'Raid' content and I think giving benefits to Guilds is the first step to forming more cohesive 'Raid groups'.
It is unfair, but I guess supplementing the increased chance option for UVs with additional crafting costs would offset it, if it is an issue for people.
Like you said yourself, "RNG-adjustments, will probably be too subtle for people to notice or care."

I do like the idea of shared guild recipes. Assuming that we're not going back to unbind-on-craft (and I'm still hoping) this would be a way to bring back a small aspect of social crafting.

That's my thinking behind it.

Guild Bank has been suggested before, but is still a good idea.

I know, but it tied in well with previous ideas.

@OnmyojiOmn:

That's not what literally means.

Literally.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 21:18
#4
Evning's picture
Evning
I fear your suggestions..

Basically, what i see is that there will be tons of things from the invent-mo-tron, casual players will never be able to afford.
lottery will also make somethings unobtainable to casual players, assuming the person that buys more lottery tix will have a higher chance of winning.

I am already quite bummed that it would take me nearly 3 mth of playing for me to get an antigua.

as for the guild hall and terminal thing, didn't quite understand that.

I am not shooting your ideas mind you, just that i would feel really sad because there will be a very significant amount of items that are unobtainable to casual players.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 21:52
#5
Shoebox's picture
Shoebox
I am not shooting your ideas

I am not shooting your ideas mind you, just that i would feel really sad because there will be a very significant amount of items that are unobtainable to casual players.

This is a problem that will exist with or without these additions.
General idea being that, people who don't have the time to play can't have somebody else make up their items while they are doing something else, can't join in on a JK run in progress because you won't receive a worthwhile amount of Tokens, etc.

But there is a need for these kinds of things and I think that the more frequent players need something to do with the millions of junk items sitting in their Arsenal.
That is who these suggestions are geared towards.

Sun, 05/22/2011 - 22:13
#6
Evning's picture
Evning
yes this problem will eventually occur

Actually i dun mean casual players buying things off other players, i mean casual players that would like to work for their own stuff

These luck based things will be hard for casual players that cannot maximize their luck with more play time.

But yes, on the other f2p games that i have played, they had these thingamajics that gave you random stuff, hence the past tense.
It just wasn't fun being the inferior player =p

unfortunately for me =p
that invent---thing. is sort of shown to be possible,
it would be a great source of profit as well.... if greed prevails..

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 13:16
#7
kevomatic
Legacy Username
If you want to encourage

If you want to encourage players to experiment with the Invent-Mo-Tron (for new items) and not just use already-discovered formulas, you could even have some unique flag on the first-created instance of each item.

Mon, 05/23/2011 - 23:28
#8
Evning's picture
Evning
@kevomatic

nice idea to promote experimenting.

but another unfair feature =[

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