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Just make every weapon do everything already

66 replies [Last post]
Tue, 11/05/2013 - 13:38
#51
Neueragon's picture
Neueragon
well, lets give it a whirl then!

6% sounds like a reasonable number for the orbs.
now then, time to fabricate some weapons with the new system:

Fang of frostifur.
basically a freeze FoV with an extra bit of freeze instead of damage, the FoF is capable of easily rendering targets immobile and partially useless. but here comes the charge, capable of hitting targets up to 4 times and due to the freeze, might even do that! and the self-freeze? not too bad if all your enemies were just shattered to little snowflakes.
it is made with a fang and 4 freeze orbs

ultimate mist bomb.
mist bombs deal some slight damage when they have no status. lets exploit that. first of all, take some damage value for them, lets say 20 dmg per tick. now add 4 normal orbs, giving about 1/4 damage bonus, giving 25. any extra damage from dmg bonus on gear can still apply. now, why would you make this? first of all, weaker status means more range, so its slightly bigger than current 5* vaporizers, then its also capable of inflicting damage on fire-resistant enemies and it get damage bonus from gear and heating. the best thing to compare it to might be the BAB, where both bombs will have similar functions, large damage over a wide area. the UMB is capable of doing this without annoying your teammates or slowing you down while you charge.
the UMB is made with a vaporizer and 4 normal orbs

stunswinger.
the stunswinger is a cutter with stun chance maxed and one extra point in strength. this means that you do 6% less dmg than a plain DVS, while being able to keep one enemy stunned almost indefinitely, making lumbers easy.
it is made with a cutter and 4 stun orbs

the REAL beast basher.
the RBB is a troika modified to deal with beast. ever used a GF against wolvers? then you understand this weapon. its damage without weakness bonus or damage bonus would be already 12% higher than a plain suda.
it is made with a troika and 4 piercing orbs

denial gun.
this is a special idea of mine, which combines three things that work great against fiend: piercing, fast guns and stun. yes, this gun can not only deal about 18% less damage than an AP against weak enemies, it also has a good chance to stun those little monsters!
its made with an antigua, one piercing orb and 3 stun orbs

I could go on with this almost indefinitely, that is the beauty of this system.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 14:20
#52
Ghret's picture
Ghret

This is an amazing Idea! If only this was implemented at the beginning of the game. As it stands, trying to implement this now would result in an unholy Reag-Sturm!! the likes of which we have never seen. And I'm talking bigger than all the other dreadful decisions OOO has made collected into one big ball of fury and having it explode all over the game.

Though we survived other game-ending decisions that were considered impossible *cough*can't remove Elevator Costs*cough* so we might just make it though this without losing too many people.

Nice idea though. Just would break the game trying to implement it now.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 17:43
#53
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy
Armours

This is gonna be a lot of text.

New orbs, only usable by armour:

  • Ability orbs:
    • Strength orb (2*)
    • Agility orb (2*)
    • Focus orb (2*)
  • Shadow Lair orbs
    • Panachea orb (5*)
    • Multiorb (5*)
    • Mercury orb (5*)
    • Chaos orb (5*)
  • Event orbs
    • Kataclysm orb (5*)

To understand the numbers I'll be spouting, here's my reference:
Current Skolver has 7 units normal, 6.5 piercing
Current Wolver starts with 2.5 normal, 2.15 piercing

I will be heavily rebalancing existing armours, and as such, apart from Brandishes, armours will overall be much more affected by this suggestion than weapons. The approach is also a lot more limited than it was with weapons, as otherwise everyone would just craft wolver with triple status resistances and I hope nobody wants that.

Base armours

These are the base armours. As usual, they'll count as 1* now:

  • Class
    • Wolver: 2 normal, sword affinity (I will explain affinity and everything else further down)
    • Gunslinger: 2 normal, gun affinity
    • Demo: 2 normal, bomb affinity
  • Class
    • Cobalt: 2 normal +1 health
    • Magic: 2 normal, 3 elemental
    • Jelly: 2 normal, 3 piercing
    • Skelly: 2 normal, 3 shadow
    • Plate: 5 normal, -1 ASI, +1 health
  • Specialist
    • Valkyrie: 2 shadow, (sword/fiend/undead) affinity
    • Chroma: 2 piercing, (slime/beast//bomb) affinity
    • Dragon: 2 elemental, (construct/gun/gremlin) affinity
  • Event
    • Kat hat: 2 shadow, -2 shock, -2 curse, sword/gun/bomb

Seerus Mask is a special piece of armour only available at Operation: Crimson Hammer. It cannot be crafted by other means.

Growth

Armour will accept 4 orbs, just like weapons. However, you are restricted in when you can place orbs. I'll detail this for each type of armour.

An orb, once applied to an armour, will add its effect at a factor of the armour's star rating. It doesn't matter whether you applied the orb at 3* or 4*. By the time the armour is 5*, it will provide the same defence. Let's have an example.

1* Wolver coat: 2 normal defence
2* Wolver coat + strength orb: 2 normal defence, +1 sword damage
3* Wolver coat + strength + normal orb: 5 normal defence, +1 sword damage
4* Wolver coat + strength + normal + piercing: 6 normal defence, 4 piercing defence, +1 sword damage
5* Wolver coat + strength + normal + piercing + freeze: 7 normal defence, 5 piercing defence, +2 sword damage, +4 freeze

Strength/Agility/Focus orbs are perhaps obvious in the case of class armours. They work like this:
For wolver, strength adds sword damage, agility adds sword speed, focus adds swords CTR.
For gunslinger, strength adds gun damage, agility adds gun speed, focus adds gun CTR.
For demo, strength adds bomb damage, focus adds bomb CTR. Demo does not accept agility orbs.

'Attribute orbs', as I'll call them, are 2* and have to be applied at the 2* stage. In fact, class armours and special armours will not even accept any other type of orb to get to 2*. At 2*-4*, they give a +1 bonus, but at 5* they grow into a +2 bonus. There's an exception to this, detailed later.

Status orbs can be added at 5*, and 2* in the case of defensive armour. If added at 2*, they provide +1 resistance. This grows by 1 for each upgrade, becoming +4 at 5*.

Defence orbs add 1 defence for each star rating of the armour. Of course, the earliest it can be added is 23, so they start at 3 bars and become 5 in the end.

Also, the health for each armour works exactly like it does now. Level 10 5* armour gives +5 health and there are no orbs associated with this process.

Also, you can add a curse orb at 5*, giving the armour curse resistance like anything else.

What about Chaos? Fallen? What about Sanctuary? I'm getting there. Let's go over the three armour classes first.

Class armour
Mostly explained above. Here's how you must upgrade a piece of class armour:

2*: Ability orb (For instance a Strength orb, to increase sword damage)
3*: Defence orb (Often normal)
4*: Defence orb (Often piercing/elemental/shadow)
5*: Status orb or Special orb

I'll get to special orbs later.

Defence armour
Defence armours will not accept ability orbs.

2*: Status orb
3*: Defence orb
4*: Defence orb
5*: Status orb or certain Special orbs

A final piece of defence armour might look a bit like this.
Plate + normal + elemental + stun + fire:
10 normal, 5 elemental, +4 stun, +4 fire, +1 health

Looks familiar? That's just Volcanic Plate. In fact, it's exactly Volcanic plate. The only difference is the extra health.

Specialist armour
Let's re-list them.

  • Valkyrie: 2 shadow, sword/fiend/undead
  • Chroma: 2 piercing, slime/beast/bomb
  • Dragon: 2 elemental, construct/gun/gremlin

That bit after the defence can be read as such: strength/agility/focus
So putting a strength orb on valkyrie gives sword damage, putting agility orb on it gives fiend damage, and focus orb gives undead damage.

You can spot the pattern, I'm sure. Note that a focus orb on Chroma does not give bomb damage, but bomb CTR. Similarly, agility orb on Dragon gives gun speed, not damage.

Similarly to class armours, you must use an ability orb at 2*. If you wanted defensive armour, you could've just gone for defence armour.

Family bonuses start at +2 at 2* and become +3 at 5*.

Finally, the growth tree looks like this:
2*: Ability orb
3*: Defence orb
4*: Defence orb
5*: Status orb or Special orbs

Kat hats

Kat Hat is a little bit special. Its affinity is sword/gun/bomb. When the orb is applied to it, it gains +1 ASI for that weapon, except bombs which gain +1 CTR. When the hat reaches 5*, the bonus grows to +2 but also gets +1 damage added. This comes at the expense of the -2 shock and -2 curse resistance. Let's make a Kat Hiss, shall we?

Kat Hat + focus + normal + shadow + freeze:
5 normal, 7 shadow, +4 freeze, -2 shock, -2 curse, +1 bomb damage, +2 bomb CTR

Its growth tree is just like class and specialist armours:
2*: Ability orb
3*: Defence orb
4*: Defence orb
5*: Status orb or certain Special orbs

Shadow lair orbs

  • Panachea Orb
      Let's start with the Panachea orb. You craft it using Nightmare Mane at the Sanctuary Alchemy Machine. When bound with a 4* weapon, that weapon will accept two status orbs for upgrading. The two status orbs will only function at 4* effect. This is how you make the Snarbolax equivalent:

      Wolver + strength + normal + shadow + Panachea (poison, freeze)
      7 normal, 5 shadow, +2 sword damage, +3 poison, +3 freeze

      Panachea orbs will work on any armour.

  • Mercurial Orb

      I bet you've already guessed what Mercurial Orb does. You craft it at the Sanctuary Alchemy Machine using Gremlonium. It adds +1 MSI to your armour.

      Demo suit + strength + normal + elemental + mercurial:
      7 normal, 5 elemental, +2 bomb damage + 1 MSI

      Yup, the shock resistance is gone. But there is a trick to make old Merc Demo, and it involves our next subject. Mercurial orbs can be put on any armour.

  • Multiorb

      Multiorb is crafted at the Sanctuary Alchemy Machine using Celestial Ore. Multiorb is a special orb that, when placed on a 4* weapon, makes the weapon require two orbs to level up. One of them have to be an ability orb different from the one already sued, and the other one the status orb. Both ability orbs now bound with the armour will function, but at 4* effect. This works with Mercurial orb, but it has no 4* equivalent and will as such function at it's full +1. A practical example:

      Demo suit + strength + normal + elemental + Multiorb (Mercurial + shock):
      7 normal, 5 elemental, +1 bomb damage, +1 MSI

      Multiorbs cannot be put on defensive armour. It can be used with Kat Hats, but doing so would produce no result. You'd still end up with +2 ASI and +1 damage. in most cases. Although you could convert it to +2 ASI +1 CTR using a multiorb.

      You also can't put a multiorb inside of a another multiorb.

  • Chaos Orb

      And lastly, the orb you've all been waiting for, the Chaos orb. Chaos Orb is crafted at the Sanctuary Alchemy Machine using a Maiden's Tear. It reduces every status resistance (Fire, shock, freeze, poison. Curse and stun are unaffected.) by 2 and removes the weapon's inherent defences. In exchange for this, you're allowed to place a second ability orb on the armour. Practical example:

      Demo suit + strength + normal + elemental + Chaos (focus)

      5 normal, 5 elemental, +2 bomb damage, +2 bomb CTR, -2 fire/shock/freeze/poison

      Chaos orbs cannot be put on defensive armour.

      Yes, there would be no way to replicate current Chaos, which give +2 dmg/CTR to absolutely everything. It's better this way. On the other hand, Kat Hats are arguably OP now:

      Kat hat + sword + normal + shadow + Chaos (strength)
      5 shadow, 5 normal, +3 sword damage, +2 sword ASI, -4 shock, -2 fire/freeze/poison/curse

      You would not be able to combine Chaos and agility orbs for Kat Hats, as the hat already counts as using one in the first place.

  • Kataclysm Orb

      Speaking of Kats, we have Kataclysm orb. It's obtained from Margel and as such access to it is very limited. The Kataclysm orb is only compatible with Kat Hats. In short, it allows you to convert the ASI of a Kat Hat into damage, but at the expense of -2 poison, -2 fire and the loss of the hat's inherit 2 shadow. Like Chaos orb, you are allowed to add a status orb on top of this. We get something like this:

      Kat Hat + sword + normal + shadow + Kataclysm (freeze):
      5 normal, 5 shadow, +4 freeze, -2 fire/shock/poison/curse, +3 sword damage

      You are allowed to use Kataclysm orbs with other special orbs. Let's try it:
      Kat hat + sword + normal + shadow + Kataclysm (Multiorb(freeze, Mercurial))
      5 normal, 5 shadow, +4 freeze, -2 fire/shock/poison/curse, +2 sword damage, +1 MSI

      You could do something similar with Chaos, but you'd end up with -4 to most statuses except curse and freeze, both ending at -2. For your troubles, you'd get +3 sword damage instead of +2.

Deprecated armours

You can probably imagine for yourself how most armours would be made in this system. Here's a few you can't:

  • Azure Guardian, arguably. It would lack the two status resistances that are so telltale for defensive armours. Current owners of Azure Guardian would be given a generic refund. A generic refund works like this:
    • You get the 1* armour.
    • You get 3 alchemy orbs (now used to craft the orbs used to bind with armour.) for each rank from 2* to 5*.
    • You also get enough heat crystals to level 3* armour to level 5, 4* armour to level 4 and 5* armour to level 5.
  • Chaos users would get nothing, similar to how owners of Mad Bomber got nothing.

    I'm just kidding. Generic refund with 1* Magic.

  • Divine Owners would be given a Magic set. It'd look like this:
    Magic + elemental + shadow + curse + (fire/shock). No fiend bonus, and slightly reduced fire and shock resistance. The armour is a bit special, because it would be impossible to craft for yourself. Curse is a 5* orb and would have to be part of the multiorb combination under normal circumstances. Divine owners can strut around in these swag dreads and show off to all the newbies who can never obtain one for themselves.
  • Almirian Crusader would be Cobalt + normal + shadow + fire + curse. This gives Almirian +4 fire, +4 curse rather than +2 curse, -2 fire. It strictly speaking should've been this way from the start.
  • Volcanic and Arcane Salamander:
    Chroma + slime + piercing + elemental + fire and
    Chroma + slime + piercing + elemental + multiorb(beast, fire)
  • Ancient Plate would still be obtainable at Brinks' for Almirian Seals. There is, however, no way to craft it.
  • Valkyrie:
    Angelic + Fiend + Normal + Shadow + Panachea(Curse, Poison)
    Fire weakness would be gone.
  • Armour of the Fallen:
    Generic refund with 1* Angelic.
  • Heavenly Iron:
    Angelic + Fiend + Normal + Shadow + Multiorb(sword, curse).
    Shock weakness would be gone.
  • Deadshot:
    Generic refund with 1* Gunslinger. Sorry, Fehzor, I know you like this armour a lot. :[
  • Radiant Silvermail:
    Generic refund with 1* Drake. You could remake an equivalent with multiorb and Valkyrie./li>

  • Black Kat:
    Generic refund with 1* Kat Hat. You would also receive enough Kat Fetishes to craft back up to 5* (4, 1 per craft.). In addition, you'd receive a Multiorb, Chaos orb and a Kataclysm Orb. Like all refunds, these would all be bound./li>

    Phew, this was a lot. I'm sure you guys will swiftly let me know if I've forgotten something important.

    Something important I forgot

    Cyclops Cap, Fencing Jacket:
    Would still exist. These would be unupgradable, and function exactly like they do today.

    The breaker series armour:
    1* armour called statusbreaker. Its stats look like this:
    2 elemental, +1 resistance for fire/shock/freeze, polarizing growth

    Breaker armour will not accept poison orbs. Capping at 3*, it will also not accept curse orbs.

    Let's look at that polarizing growth. First of all, the growth tree goes like so:
    2*: Status
    3*: Defence

    At 2*, you add, say, fire, and it'll look like this:
    +3 fire, -1 shock, -1 freeze

    At 3*, you add normal defence or whatever and it's grown to look like this:
    +4 fire, -2 shock, -2 freeze

    So in addtion to starting with +1 status for three statuses, it also adds +1 to the resistance for the added status orb.

    • Tue, 11/05/2013 - 21:28
    #54
    Usevnsevnsixfivfor's picture
    Usevnsevnsixfivfor

    Would armor stay in its unbalanced form as well?

    Tue, 11/05/2013 - 22:36
    #55
    Skold-The-Drac's picture
    Skold-The-Drac
    OOO hire zeddy

    Plox hire zeddy.

    This system just hums efficiency. It skips the slow weapon updates and lack of balance and gets right down to transparent business.
    Players get any weapon they can imagine. OOO can get their moneys.

    Wed, 11/06/2013 - 04:46
    #56
    Neueragon's picture
    Neueragon
    hm.

    its nice that armors can also be customised to such a large degree, but i think there may be more problems with armors being properly balanced. also, we would lose a lot of the armor appearances to just have them plainly recolour.

    Wed, 11/06/2013 - 05:29
    #57
    Senka-Sae's picture
    Senka-Sae
    Welp.

    Considerably we could say the same thing about the current system's weapon and certain armors, but we all know which ones. As well, the idea could be refined in terms of limitations, albeit I already see a few that would work quite nicely; I'm more that curious to see this work out.

    And I had that thought too: Zeddy, what would happen to special armors? Much like the Almirian Crusader set, Heavenly Iron Helm, or the Gunslinger Set (I kid.)? Would these continue to exist with some mild-yet-noticeable coloration given by their previous orbs, or would they perish and instead continue on with the 1* as a re-re-re-re-recolor?

    Wed, 11/06/2013 - 06:52
    #58
    Zeddy's picture
    Zeddy

    There's no reason for unique armour models to disappear. It'd work a bit like this:

    • Adding certain defences and status resists will add physical bits and maybe recolour some other physical bits on the armour. Piercing defence might add some scaley textures on the arms or whatever. Maybe normal defence will add shoulderpads? You could customize such bits for each type of armour, it's pretty much limited to how much the artist wants to bother with it.
    • In addition to this, you could run checks with a database of conditions. Wolver coat with poison and shadow resistance? Give it Snarbolax model. Angelic with normal defence and sword bonus? Heavenly Iron model. Additional bits optional. The conditions could be as narrow or wide as the developers see fit.
    • You could do something similar with names. Wolver Coat with normal defence might become Heavy Wolver Coat, but as soon as you put fire resistance on it it'll become Vog Cub Coat, or Heavy Vog Cub Coat, or something like that. Optionally, gear could be named by the player at 5*.

    Wed, 11/06/2013 - 08:26
    #59
    Skepticraven's picture
    Skepticraven
    Removes Uniqueness of the Game

    If all variations of weapons and armor are introduced, don't you think it begins to limit the creative ways to acquire those weapons/armor? Why spend the time farming apocrean gear when you could theoretically make an equivalent with one alteration on the status?
    Doesn't this also restrict future creative events from providing the likable weapons/armor?
    They recently released a poison themed weapon update. What makes you think they won't add a pierce/fire/ice/shock/stun weapon event in the future? Just doing a blanket release of all of them with a couple that have finicky restrictions seems like a really bad idea.

    I expect your response to this to be somewhere along the lines of "but then they could add completely new weapons with all the variations". To which my response is: Doubtful. They currently use "new weapons" via reskins and populating your comprehensive weapon list. What is likely to happen if this change occurs is only reskins without any changes in the weapons - like the great cleavers and scissor blades.

    How will a post release all weapons update look? Will that not bring the development of the game to a greater standstill than it currently seems to be at?

    This suggestion is creating a massive quantity of dead content. Who needs an elemental status brandish when you can get a normal one for all purpose use? (And probably would be just as OP as the acheron is at the moment - except kills everything.)

    @Skold-The-Drac
    No, it does not balance. Why? All event type weapons/armor listed in the exceptions now become scarce. Right now we only truely have 2 event type alchemy machines (Kats and Apocrean), but I would argue that the Krogmo and Sanctuary (Only one handled by Zeddy) also act similar by the quantity of time or effort that has to be put in to use them. These weapons and armor become niche accessories because no new players currently without them actually spends the time to get them. Yes, it hums efficiency. Efficiency is not always fun.

    Wed, 11/06/2013 - 14:38
    #60
    Skold-The-Drac's picture
    Skold-The-Drac
    @skepticraven

    Normal dmg still 'weak' compared to specialized counterparts. I never said it balances everything out, I just said it skips any "OOO Nerf this plox" 'balancing' because everyone will be able to obtain the new metas this system creates rather easily (UV'd chaos will still hold out and plate may see a light comeback if only to play with).

    Now shardbombs can add any status and remain all colors of the rainbow.
    Everyone gets to play with all available weapon mechanics, and can even forge awesome combinations.
    Almost all the OP pve weapons essentially come in rainbows, might as well finish it.
    There won't be many complaints about the leveling system from new players(streamlining this to transparency from the get go will help new players.)
    Zeddy's watched how OOO balances things and has come up with a system that not only can reproduce nearly any armor/weapon already in-game...
    but also releases "balanced" gear in the sense of how OOO would appear to balance everything.
    Unique variants actually become a spectacle
    Granted there are some aspects that require fine-tuning and tweaks but honestly if OOO's remaining option is to give out reskins on the same mechanics then I figure we may as well go full-throttle with it.

    Wed, 11/06/2013 - 15:23
    #61
    Zeddy's picture
    Zeddy
    @Skepticraven
    • Considering the new weapon system would not feature split damage, a normal-damage brandish would be just as OP as Leviathan blade. Feel free to compare 2* Brandish and Calibur. Let me know if you think 5 explosions on the 2* Brandish would be OP or not.
    • I don't think they won't keep just releasing cheap reskin variations of existing weapons. In fact, I am 100% certain they will. That is what sparked this thread.
    • I'm not very worried about releases of weapons stagnating. The last time we had a weapon update before this Apocrean business, our selection of weapons ended up worse off than before the update. The single most fun mechanic the game had to offer was removed and replaced by a completely mangled one, which ruined potential taunts me every day I launch this game. If weapon releases has stagnated completely just a month before it did, noone would've been happier about it than me.
    • However, let's say the devs wanted to put out slight variations of existing weapons in order to save on coding. We could do the Nitro/BAB or Levi/FoV treatment.

      Obsidian Crusher could've been a Vortex where, instead of the explosion at the end, suction was weaker but the tentacles continously applied small amounts of damage through the bomb's duration. The tentacles fired from Obsidian Carbine and Obsidian Blade could stop at the first enemy it hits and entangle them like the Harvester's tentacles. It'd work a bit like freeze, but allow the enemies turn freely.

      Maybe not those mechanics in particular, but as you can see there are many ways to give existing weapon slight variations.

    • Krogmo machines wouldn't need much of a change with this suggestion. Simply remove all weapons from it and make it purely a trinket dispenser. I'm not sure who would care, but I certainly wouldn't.
    Thu, 11/07/2013 - 16:36
    #62
    Skold-The-Drac's picture
    Skold-The-Drac
    Could you recreate ice queen set for me zeddy?

    I'm having issues theory-crafting ice queen jelly set with this system, or royal for that matter.

    Thu, 11/07/2013 - 16:46
    #63
    Zeddy's picture
    Zeddy

    Jelly + Stun + Piercing + Normal + Freeze?

    I don't believe I'm seeing your issue.

    Royal Jelly is a bit tougher, since there is no sleep orb.

    Thu, 11/07/2013 - 16:50
    #64
    Skold-The-Drac's picture
    Skold-The-Drac
    forgive me, thick in the head today

    Actually a question that popped in my head is if we could enable bomber armors the ability to use mercury orbs at 2*.

    Bombers could finally get a third ability to play with. Cost of mercury orbs could keep it in check theoretically right? Or would that be asking too much?

    Fri, 11/08/2013 - 02:27
    #65
    Zeddy's picture
    Zeddy

    I'm not sure I see the particular benefits of it. The most it'd allow, in the end, is for bombers to use MSI in T2 Lockdown. Is that the reason you'd want it?

    Fri, 11/08/2013 - 07:51
    #66
    Skold-The-Drac's picture
    Skold-The-Drac
    bombers need to move

    Essentially yes... But wouldn't it also enable an opportunity at msi: v.high gear if mercury were counted the same as other ability orbs in regards to turning to a +2 buff at 5*? This'd then enable the one buff that's been missing a (positive) max-ability to be max-able via sprite perk and equipment.

    Graviton and BAB movement speeds become a cinch...

    Bombers could dodge a bit better. The only thing we're really allowed to do while prepping that bomb. :p

    That is what I'm after.

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