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T2 vs T3 shut up people this may or may not be the conclusion because it is more about community preference

19 replies [Last post]
Fri, 11/08/2013 - 20:27
Tehepicwin's picture
Tehepicwin

I hate this stupid, worthless, and undeserving debate. I will now conclude it by taking in the arguments of both sides and combining them in to one. So what is the answer? Here are some statements:

T2 requires more skill and is more balanced. This is correct.

T3 requires more skill and is more balanced. This is also correct.

Wait a minute, didn't I just contradict myself? Let me explain. To get closer to the conclusion, I have put here some of the most popular strategies.

T3:
1.Gran Faust double-swipe spamming
2.Shivermist spamming
3.Polaris spamming
4.Toothpick spamming

Now for T2:
1.Sealed Sword spamming
2.Brandish spamming
3.Toothpick spamming
4.Hybrid spamming

Compare them. Don't you notice how T3 puts in guns and bombs more often? In order to actually draw something from this investigation, I will divide the next part into two sections: Balance and Skill

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Balance
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From the T2 side, we hear a lot of, "aghghhh, T3 weaahpons areaeae soooooo OPOPPP." In reality, this is not actually true. You can not simply say that toothpick is better than the volt edge or whatever. T3 balances all of the weapons so that everything is a threat, while in T2 swords arguably overpower the guns and bombs. BUT, THIS IS WHAT MAKES BOTH TIERS BALANCED. T2 is the land of swords. Since everyone is using swords, we can say that T2 is balanced in a different way from T3. Basically:

T2 is balanced because everyone is using swords.

T3 is balanced because the weapon types are equal to each other.
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Skill
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How does skill differ between the two tiers?

Remember how everyone uses swords in T2. Since everyone in T2 is using swords, we can say that T2 mostly requires skills from swords. For the few people who use guns and bombs, there is more skill required from them too.

In T3, you have to recognize the equality between the T3 weapons. Let's look at the most arguably skill-less people on the planet: Gran Faust double-swipe spammers. Yes, they win the damage war very often. The thing is, these people ARE SKILLED IN THEIR OWN WAY. They can turn a Gran Faust into a killing machine, which is a skill. How about Shivermist spammers? It takes more than just timing to do this, which means that they ARE SKILLED IN THEIR OWN WAY. The reason T2 pound T3 people is because the T3 people are skilled in ways T2 players deem less "valuable". Get my point? So basically:

T2 mostly needs sword skill, while demanding even more from guns and bombs.

T3 also needs skill, just in different ways from T2.

Here are the final statements:

T2 is balanced because everyone is using swords.

T3 is balanced because the weapon types are equal to each other.

T2 mostly needs sword skill, while demanding even more from guns and bombs.

T3 also needs skill, just in different ways from T2.
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That's the argument of balance and skill over. Us lockdown addicts have nothing to debate over on that.

Unfortunately, the lockdown community isn't exactly great. It is the biggest reason this argument exists at all. I must admit that I like T2 lockdown better since many T3 people are annoying(but easier to troll lol). The only reasons I play T3 at all are that T2 is relatively inactive, and that I enjoy the new playstyle of T3 when I am in the right mood.

My side over :3

Fri, 11/08/2013 - 20:46
#1
Playerman's picture
Playerman
---

I'm personally all for Tier 3.

Your conclusion is pretty well put, from an equipment stand point. Some people argue that Tier 2 is more forgiving for getting hit, which is completely true. I like the fast-paced-ness of Tier 3.

Also, the community must be taken into consideration. People in one Tier may argue more than the other.

Both of these arguments originate from preference however, so yes, both Tiers are balanced well enough.

Fri, 11/08/2013 - 22:20
#2
Rangerwillx's picture
Rangerwillx

So everything is 'spamming'?
Pff

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 03:12
#3
Theirillusion's picture
Theirillusion

"2.Shivermist spamming"

It's noticeable you never play tier 3 Lockdown.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 03:19
#4
Krakob's picture
Krakob

This thread is a load of bullpoo. There's no arguing to be done, T2 is better because people aren't jerks as often.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 04:30
#5
Rezzler's picture
Rezzler
^But the advantage is, in T3,

^But the advantage is, in T3, becUseof that, trolling is much more viable.
Oh yeah, @OP. Youre last sentence ("Let me know what you think") an the title ("Shut up people this is the conclusion") don't really fit. Looks like your silly argument isnt the only poorly thought out thing, huh?

And tbh, OOO cant do anything about lockdown, so it doesnt really mTtter.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 06:20
#6
Simaster's picture
Simaster
@Krakob Aye, that is true

@Krakob
Aye, that is true about T2. But I wouldn't call the thread bullpoo, my fellow gmc friend, because I'm pretty sure we both know how some people react to that.

@Rezzler
Next time consider the possible result of your post, I don't think we want to see this escalate in the wrong direction.
OOO can actually do a lot when it comes to lockdown and the rest of spiral knights, but that doesn't mean they always should since change is a thing seen as both good and bad depending on the public opinion. <.<

@Tehepicwin-forum
While I appreciate the summary you've made and the effort you've put into it, the debate won't be concluded only because you say so or want it to be.
You can however ignore the debate wholly, a much healthier solution then trying to stop a boulder rolling down the mountain which will sooner or later end on a plain where it'll stop and cease to be. ;)

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 09:07
#7
Rezzler's picture
Rezzler
^Ah, someone who can actually

^Ah, someone who can actually read. Finally.

I would consider OOO changing lockdown. But honestly, after 2 years of them ignoring good suggestions and 2 years of doing stupid crap like buffing brandishes, buffing acheron, buffing chaos, settting up a paywall, and doing random stuff that nobody asked for (lots of other stuff too), I have lost faith in the developers. They cant do what the players want, either because they are careless or for some reason dont see our suggestions.

Dont get me wrong, CMs and GMs are fine. It is just the developers who seriously need to pay more attention to players.

I have played since the release of lockdown, so I do know how things have gone. Its pretty pathetic, honestly.

They also have failed to explain any of their silly decisions to the players, which makes it even more pathetic. Unless someone can find real PROOF that the develors responded to suggestions fairly recently, had a real discussion with players, or the developers explained WHY they did something that the community regards as idiotic (Acheron buff), then my statement stands.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 09:14
#8
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Simas

Shush you, I was kidding. Although I admittedly didn't read the original post (which appears to be well written) entirely, I don't think the community falls under balance or skill. It's something not too often considered and it's a reason I like T2 LD.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 18:22
#9
Tehepicwin's picture
Tehepicwin
ok, wait

@Anti-Danger
Though I see what you mean, I just felt the need for more words than just "brandish" and "toothpick".

@Theirrillusion
My point is not actually that Shivermist is popular, I admit that I ran out of ideas. What I mean is that bombs and guns are more "viable" in T3 than T2.

@EVERY SINGLE PERSON
Yes, I did think it out really badly. Looks like the community will never be able to settle this argument :(

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 21:33
#10
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

I don't get this thing about guns and bombs being useless in T2... they're not. At all.

Sat, 11/09/2013 - 21:59
#11
Tehepicwin's picture
Tehepicwin
@Klipik-Forum

I didn't say guns and bombs were useless in T2. I just said that the swords overpowered the guns and the bombs. Let's face it, the guns in T2 are what many would call weak, and bombs have a very small radius which make them hard to use. In T3, guns are more of a threat and bombs have large AoE's.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 03:15
#12
Krakob's picture
Krakob

I like the balance of mist bombs in T2. People will extremely rarely be immune to one kind while mist bombs are smaller in size, which means that you can't rely on them as much.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 07:39
#13
Ndognine-Forums's picture
Ndognine-Forums
why does it matter? Its a

why does it matter? Its a matter of presence, not "which one is more balanced" or "which one is better." Theres no reason to argue over something that people will never agree on.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 10:08
#14
Qwao's picture
Qwao

Aww, T1 LD remains unloved.

For all that's worth, they even gave out free UVs, OOO did! (Keyword: Gave)
ctr high Proto Bomb <3

_________________________________________________

Okay well, I really don't see the point. I used to think T2 was better... but now I think Fiends are better than both tiers lol
The community tbh I feel is getting worse, that or I am more detached to T2 community than I was... It's still somewhat better than T3, at least so I think, so there's that.
Having gotten proper T3 gear, trinkets (though mostly crap UVs) I can safely say you might as well not need UVs at all if you have... ehrm, the "connection", if you will. Although given it barely makes a difference to me I don't know honestly. Status resists on the other hand play a big role in reducing mist bomb spammers to mere annoyances, and it takes the fun out of the mist bomb spammer. Though honestly considering how many people dodge Nitronome that is to be expected.
T2 on one hand is fine without UVs, on the other you get people wielding asi vh hammers that basically take the fun out of the game for everyone else. Buuut that's not my main point. Yes now that you guys say it, it does kind of feel like a sword haven. Then again I mainly use swords after I gave up gunning in T2, yadayada, so I barely notice that. Though to be honest if you said gunners were no threat that I have to respond with a flat out "NO." Bombers on the other hand can be either a pain or a poor guy to be pulsar-food: If they decide to start spamming freeze, with good (and smart) teammates they'll let the other team just get freeze locked because without UVs you can't be immune to freeze. When everyone gets freeze-locked the game is over, just hold the other points, other team doesn't even get to play proper and nuff said. On the other hand the extremely tiny bomb radius renders bombers defenseless even against sword strikers, they can dash in, smack a few hits and escape unharmed. Throw in guardian shield and even dash and even recons can take out a bomber not spamming mist bombs.

Meanwhile I'm still annoyed I can't swing a flourish faster than a sealed combo. But that's besides the point.

I don't know really. I say Dark City > T2 and T3

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 10:28
#15
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
@Qwao

The reason the T2 community feels like it's getting worse is because it's getting smaller. :(

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 10:41
#16
Aus-Lagger's picture
Aus-Lagger
Lockdown is a joke at tier 2

Lockdown is a joke at tier 2 and 3

Blast Network on the other hand, isn't.

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 15:55
#17
Bullpig's picture
Bullpig
sort of relevant ('-' )

Tehepicwin has some great points. But why even argue about something so irrelevant in my opinion. Tier 3 has many more options for weapons that do fair damage, whereas Tier 2 has few. I mean, you COULD use the auto gun in T2, but my highest damage with it was 200. My point is that T3 has a plethora of weapons that, when used right, can be just as effective as the final flourish but on the flip side, T2 has very few weapons that aren't terrible. Guns in T3 do a lot of damage, and in T2, only the best gunners can score some good damage. I don't know, I just think that the two tiers are so different that comparing them is like comparing an elephant to a giraffe. Yes you can find both of them in the African savannah, but one is big, fat, and gray with tusks, whereas the other is yellow, tall, and skinny with polka dots. >end of rambling<

Sun, 11/10/2013 - 19:52
#18
Tehepicwin's picture
Tehepicwin
/me kicks a rock.

I have a feeling this thread will turn into another classic debate.

Tue, 11/12/2013 - 21:03
#19
Sirius-Voltbreaker's picture
Sirius-Voltbreaker
Thank you!

My guildie, you have just proven my point 100 times over. Thank you.

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