Spiral Knights - The mysterious 4 boss token runs.

The mysterious 4 boss token runs.

73 replies [Last post]

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 08:01

#51

Skayeth

@Shien-Ryu

So... It depends on HOW you killed it??? Not very simple....

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Troll much?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 08:31

#52

Mysteryzx

Stop trying to be the last post before everyone reports you for spam, people actually want to figure this out, if you have nothing to contribute to the thread, go elsewhere.

What if it's some weird player cycle thing? Like every logged on player in the gates/missions is on a list and whoever seems to be at the top of those lists for whatever reason next gets 4 tokens, because I've had full parties run all the way through vana before and only one or two of us would get 4 tokens while the others got 3. Then again out of the times I remember that happening some of those people may have joined a little ways in....so...just my strange list theory then.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 10:23

#53

Bopp

already provided counterexamples

Shien-Ryu, in post #11 I already provided two counterexamples to your conjecture. Here are some more details:

RJP, solo, no deaths, took no damage at all on first two floors, took a little damage on third floor, killed boss quickly: got 3 tokens.

GWW, solo, no deaths, took a little damage on first two floors, took a lot of damage on third floor, killed boss very slowly: got 4 tokens.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 10:32

#54

Skepticraven

@Everyone with mixed 3 and 4 tokens

With my current hypothesis, the entire team gets 4 unless they miss some elevators. A couple people mentioned the mixed rewards - Is this reliable information, or is it something that was awhile back and may not recall 100%?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 10:38

#55

Bopp

I almost never get 4

I always do all of the levels, and I almost never get 4 tokens. This is extremely reliable information, with the following caveats:

(A) I haven't run a lot of bosses in the past couple of months, so if things have changed, then I don't know about it.

(B) I'm usually doing the mission version, not the arcade version, in case that matters.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 10:46

#56

Skepticraven

@Bopp

I definitely think (C) matters a lot. IF I'm correct: ANYONE in the party that currently has a "will get 4" will cause the entire party to get 4 - giving incentive to play in teams. Mostly why I'm confused with people reporting some people getting 3 and others 4 in the same run. I've never seen that happen unless someone joins with missing some elevators.

Additionally, mission and arcade seem indifferent.

Also, with respect to lucky streaks... I've worked with random number generators for a bit. If OOO isn't using a good one, its likely a factor of the generator itself - despite being random. It's completely possible that my 40 IMF runs were in fact just an unlucky streak. Although the chain of 3 "4 token runs" right after the 40 IMF runs seemed super fishy.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 11:03

#57

Sweet-Hope

i did those runs Solo on my previous posts

here is my results of yesterday with some friends joining me after a run:

i did it in the same way as my previous post:

1st run: 3 tokens, was solo run. perfect no damage
2nd run: 4 tokens was solo run. lost 3 bars of health with the boss
3rd run: 4 tokens a friend joined me (2 players run) he lost half of his life with the boss battle, perfect run for me since i didnt lose life.
4th run: 3 tokens still my friend and me doing the run in the same way, i lost 5 bar of life with the boss battle, my friend only 3 bars of life.
5th run: 4 tokens, another friend joined to the run (3 players run), lost 3 bars of life with the boss battle, my friends lose 3 and 4 bar of life.

:T nobody died on the entire run. im going to do more runs since i need the boss tokens anyway for jelly glue and sealed swords to sell with UVs and for me that still look random no matter if i dont get damaged by the boss or if i kill the boss quickly.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 11:13

#58

Corewalker

Hiss @Bopp.

[omit]Maybe Solo play has something to do with it? Have you ever gotten a 4token run while solo?[omit]

averted. Apparently this is possible.
(Can we use pesky strikethrough on these forums, hiss?)

I never said that my theory was a surefire way to get 4 token runs, just to note. I was just noting that during my runs, I have always gotten four tokens when these criteria were met.

I'd like to run some tests and see just how this bonus token comes about.

Moo- I mean Hiss.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 11:50

#59

Fangel

You should be able to use a strike-through

We use HTML tags for things, and although it's not listed below as "allowed", that doesn't mean we can't use it to aid discussion. (If I am horribly wrong on this, I'm sorry. Ask a GM or CM if you want a concrete answer.)

... Now that I actually have tried it, <del>, <strike> and <s> tags all don't work, at least on my phone.
Bat manure.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:07

#60

Skepticraven

Whelp

Just confirmed that my initial theory is definitely wrong with the last runs I just did.
I may have another theory, though.

Instead of the the "4 token boss" switching every time you find the current one, it may switch every time you take an elevator after a boss.
This would also possibly mean that if you were to skip the elevator after the boss, it would keep the "4 token boss" exactly where it was.

I do recall when I was doing the 40 IMF runs, I was restarting the mission after grabbing the tokens and boxes post-boss.
We already know that elevators have an important role in adding tokens to the loot.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:31

#61

Skayeth

@Skepticraven

So instead of restarting the mission....You should try another way? I have done about 4 very quick 10 minute Jelly Runs, and I only got 3 tokens each. I joined a friend every time I wanted to do the mission with them. Always the same 4 vanguards. I only died once through the whole process because of lag.
Because I died once and still got 3 tokens, I wouldn't count on performance level.

We did each one really quick, each one quicker than the other, so not really time either.

Maybe it is the group you do it with? (Another theory) Because I was with the same group over and over again.
The elevator does play a role or not, but one can never be sure after more tests. Okay, back to testing, Annilaton!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:46

#62

Bopp

wait, what?

We already know that elevators have an important role in adding tokens to the loot.

Scepticraven, I don't understand. What do we know about this, and how?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 21:06

#63

Zipb

Confirming this

IF I'm correct: ANYONE in the party that currently has a "will get 4" will cause the entire party to get 4 - giving incentive to play in teams.

Joined at d25, got 3 tokens (normally 2) while everyone else got 4.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 21:56

#64

Skepticraven

@Bopp

Elevators control the token number if you join the party late. They definitely play a role. Joining without anyone moving on the first depth will still reward you 1 less than everyone else because you missed an elevator.
[I didn't mention a test I did with an alt that just came for elevators, and got the full 3 or 4 tokens for the run to completely confirm this one.]

So a list of mechanics that are close to being confirmed:
1. Elevators have input on tokens. Missing the lobby right out of the gate loses you one token.
We may have to do some tests to find out which of the vanaduke elevators is unimportant. (It is likely it is the D24 to D25 elevator)
2. The bonus token is a party-wide phenomena. (Incentive to join parties?)
3. There is little if any influence of the following: Damage taken, deaths, time to complete.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 07:48

#65

Bopp

oh, yes, certainly

Oh, yes, missing some of the levels of a boss area certainly causes you to lose tokens. And yes, whether you've "done a level" or not is measured at the elevator. I think that this is a leftover from when elevators cost energy. The idea was not to let you have 3 tokens, if you hadn't paid all of the elevator costs.

I disagree that everyone in the party gets the same number of tokens. The effect that I described in the preceding paragraph is per-knight, not per-party. Zipb and many other people can confirm.

I agree with the other stuff you're saying --- that, beyond skipping levels, we have not detected any systematic cause of getting 3 vs. 4 tokens.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 22:48

#66

Skepticraven

My theory is wrong

Completely now. It is not a mechanic of switching a "4 token boss" that can be controlled via skipping the final elevator (as noted with the most recent update for my list of boss runs). More and more data points to it being a random party-wide phenomena.

I might start checking the time at which the token is collected to see if absolute time is a factor. (which could be part of the "luck streaks" - a suggestion from Bopp that absolute time of the run may impact the outcome).

Also as another note: Approaching 200 bark modules. Unfortunately, that is only 10 3* items to heat, which is a pretty small sample size for forge box analysis - but could definitely add to a larger scale [guild-based] study.

Sun, 11/17/2013 - 07:11

#67

Bopp

cool, do it

Cool. It would be great to have lots of systematically collected data on the rate of bonuses during forging. (I'm primarily interested in the rates at "100%" crystal level.)

Sun, 11/17/2013 - 08:37

#68

Skepticraven

@Bopp

I'll likely make a thread in Wiki Editors about it - asking all the information I should record prior to starting.
I may have to start it early, so I get some additional volunteers for the project when the gun update appears.
*Heads over to the other subforum*

*Edit: Anyone interested in the forge analysis study that I'll be starting... it can be found here

Sun, 11/17/2013 - 08:27

#69

Skayeth

@Skepticraven

Good. *Combusts fire while hand rubbing* He's gone. Time to make chaos.

Sun, 11/17/2013 - 13:20

#70

Wavara

Tsk tsk, the rewards are Karma based, don't you see it? I died in the Boss room, had to use a SoL and got 4 tokens.

Jokes aside, I can assure you is not time based. I tend to idle in most of the levels (if not in all of them) around 15 mins to 1 hour. Per level. Boss battle isn't the faster either.

RJP mission, Solo, Elite, Blazebrand+E.Charge OR Toxic Vap.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 02:49

#71

Xtremeking

No 1 cares

I don care if i drop 3or4 but i don wan 1 or 2token dat all
I don care
I luv it

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 02:50

#72

Xtremeking

No 1 cares

I don care if i drop 3or4 but i don wan 1 or 2token dat all
I don care
I luv it

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:08

#73

Skepticraven

Update

Current set of data shows that server time seems to have little impact unless there is a greater overarching pattern (perhaps the random number generations repetition period).

Any other theories that should be test? Right now I think all are wrong except "It's random".

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The mysterious 4 boss token runs.