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To midstep or not to midstep, that is the question.

19 replies [Last post]
Tue, 11/26/2013 - 10:29
Krakob's picture
Krakob

GF and DA are super popular etc. etc.
With swords and notably heavy ones, you can midstep, sidestep, or whatever you want to call it, by holding the attack button when executing a non-finishing attack, walking a bit, and then releasing the button to release the next attack. It's immensely useful in PvE because of the control you gain over your position and the potential increase of range. Midstepping does however take more time than not doing it and speed is something you need in LD so my question is, do you or do you not midstep? When? How? Why? Etc.

I personally do it when I'm executing a SS combo to increase my reach but it often hurts if I fail to land the upcoming hit. Having only an ASI Low UV, I don't think midstepping makes the difference between getting hit and not hit, though.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:00
#1
Skold-The-Drac's picture
Skold-The-Drac
strikrrr

Disregard post as I missed critical information

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:02
#2
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
timing

I'd think that the main use with it is timing.

A lot of people get into these autopilot patterns where they'll stab, dash a short circle back to the same point, then stab again. For more experienced autopilot players, they're timed to dodge and counter an immediate counterattack, but if you delay your counterattack by midstepping/holding a light charge, you can intercept them while they're still dashing and block their attack input.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:33
#3
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Seiran

Midstepping does not increase the time you have to release a blow. Rather, the time you have to release a blow is the same time you have to midstep because when that time runs out, your combo is reset. I haven't done any actual studies on this but I believe I know pretty well how weapon mechanics work.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:49
#4
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
oh?

What you call 'midstepping' is charging (from a non-final attack) and then chargewalking, then releasing to do a normal attack instead of a charge attack, right?

By that definition, you're delaying your next attack (or as you said, if you wait too long, starting a new combo) rather than just directly starting it, are you not?

edit:
And in fact, you mention it yourself:
Midstepping does however take more time than not doing it

My point from the previous point was just that after you hit someone, they have a tendency to assume you will combo, then backstep and immediately come back to counter that combo hit. The delay that takes "more time than not doing it" is the time that you can use to space and do a counter-counter-hit.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:46
#5
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Yes, but midstepping is not a necessary part of delaying a combo. I can just do nothing for a fraction of a second and then attack again rather than midstep if I want to. Combos aren't frame perfect tricks (although they wouldn't be even without the delayed combo mechanic because of the input buffer).

Edit @ edit you sneaky ninja:
My statement is still true. Midstepping does require time, while not doing it can be done faster. One can, as I said, wait for a split second and then attack without midstepping.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 11:51
#6
Skold-The-Drac's picture
Skold-The-Drac
Seiran v Krakob

imo you guys were originally agreeing on essentially the same tactic prior.

The essential question, far as I can tell, is whether or not delaying your second attack (be it via charging or just walking) is a viable, productive tactic in t3 and where its use is preferred by the community v just autopilot 1337killzobot. If my opponent is using the same weight of weapon, it's viable for combat in which I can predict the overall timing of the opponent due to them still autobotting. If they're using a lighter weapon, I prefer to fall back to lure them into me as while they would have initiative, their shorter ranged weapon would fail them.

Essentially that's the whole point of this tactic in a nutshell, it says directly to your opponent "I can predict your carp, change the pace please or suffer boredom". That's the time I'd use this tactic, is when I can reliably predict that my opponent is going to autopilot.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 12:07
#7
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
spacing

Right.
Midstepping is really icing on a timing mixup by allowing you to adjust your spacing during the delay.

Honestly, I don't really ever use 3 hit swords, but I did originally use only heavy swords (PVE), so I have used this a lot. In PVP though, I really only see midstepping as a way of really stretching out there if you absolutely believe your last, more powerful slash, will both land and kill. If neither of those happen, you'll get punished for that swing regardless of whether you hit or miss.

I periodically chargestep with valiance, if not only because looking like I'm charging seems to bait melee [..heh] players to approach (and the slight movement + knockback on hit can be enough to safely switch to a more armor-damage-effective weapon)

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 12:01
#8
Krakob's picture
Krakob
Wise words, Skold

Although I should point out, you seem to be talking about timing swings rather than the actual midstepping, which determines position.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 12:33
#9
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle
For heavy swords, it's not

For heavy swords, it's not quite as useful with DA and Gran Faust because, at the end of the day, you're still swinging the sword fairly fast in PvP if only because of the striker bonuses giving you ASI Medium, and likely more if you have any UVs on them (hint: most do). If we disregard PvP and look purely at PvE, then there's still better options to consider for crowd control aside from this. The hammer has the same mechanics, and is arguably a bit more useful to do it with, because you can reposition yourself before following through with the dash. Not to mention the hammer's overall faster swing speed, which you can use to your advantage to fake people out and make them swing at the dash they're expecting, only for it to miss because you delayed it. It's one of the better/subtle ways to enhance your range, or reposition yourself by moving backwards and dashing through them, so you're closer to them if you need to follow through with the third and final hit of the combo, or cancel and reset the combo.

One of the most useful swords for it though is the Triglav/Sudaruska, and I say that knowing full well that at the end of the day, not as many people are going to consider it. But realistically, an ASI Max Triglav is still going to swing about the same speed as an ASI Low-Medium Sealed Sword line, which really calls into question whether you'd rather cancel the second swing altogether to prevent leaving yourself open, or abuse the slower speed and try to make sure you're in the best position for landing the second hit. On average, an ASI Ultra/Max will permit you about a tile's worth of walking distance before the combo resets, which is pretty substantial. I believe the walking distance is the same across the board for all heavy lines, but you might be able to increase it by 1/10th at most if you have MSI Medium on top of everything else, including ASI, proper timing and if latency's not a factor.

This pretty much sums up my experience with it though. I don't have any numbers to provide as far as timing goes, and really it just comes down to what your playstyle is versus what the situation calls for.

Tue, 11/26/2013 - 14:39
#10
Sirius-Voltbreaker's picture
Sirius-Voltbreaker
Does anyone midstep with hammer?

I do. It is really fun.

Wed, 11/27/2013 - 08:54
#11
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Sirius

I do use it in PvE as it allows for hitting thrice with the dash very easily but I hardly use my Hammer in LD.

Wed, 11/27/2013 - 13:03
#12
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight
.

I make decisions about "midstepping" in the same way I make decisions about fast I perform each rush. By default, I don't midstep but at certain times it just happens as a reflex to the behavior of the other people (there are also times when it happens by accident).
Usually I don't midstep when doing ambushes or against opponents I know I can defeat easily (which of course is everybody since I'm OP). In a prolonged battle, I tend to midstep randomly to change my attack pattern. As stated before it's not a conscious decision, more like a reaction to the state of the battle.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 02:25
#13
Scirio's picture
Scirio
This is our Odyssey.

Midstepping is such a 1 time move. It'll only catch you by surprise, if you have any lockdown intuition you won't wall for it a 2nd time.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 12:39
#14
Dutch-Oven's picture
Dutch-Oven
Coolest thing to do with this

Coolest thing to do with this move is adding an extra spin to your attack. Looks sick and is the only reason I would ever use a heavy sword.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 13:45
#15
Krakob's picture
Krakob

That's the most amazing thing I've ever heard. I need someone to do score a quadruple kill with this mighty technique and record it.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 15:22
#16
Blue-Flood's picture
Blue-Flood

I made it a point to watch people who use this in LD.

In the thick of battle when there is too much going on and too much multitasking for you to be noticed (a big group fight) it MIGHT be useful..
If you're an opportunist or a patient player, the first thing you look for is someone who is open to attack or misses their swing so you can punish them.
If I see someone charge a DA or GF mid fight... all you really have to do is either wait till the charge flash (which would make them committed to attempting to use it), or the 2nd swing to hit air since you could easily maintain distance. While they're deciding what they want to do, you could riddle them with bullets or dance around them to lay on a free flourish hit or 3.

But it's one of those things... it has so many bad drawbacks it can play mind games on an opponent. Damage hunters might think you're a victim of lag as you fake/walk into a wall for a second or two while charging. They'd run in for that delicious damage just to eat a standing GF attack to the face.
Feigning weakness is legit if it gets you the point.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 15:28
#17
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
lol

Related to midstepping:
You can also rotate counterclockwise before releasing 2nd slash - looks like a windup before the real slash >:D

Not related:
@ "Feigning weakness is legit if it gets you the point."
This is hilariously true. I was in a game trying to get freeze-GF-charges when one of my teammates told me I should just run into a wall charging GF. I kid you not, someone ran towards me and ate a totally unwarranted GF charge to the face XP

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 15:43
#18
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Blueflood

If you hold a charge for just long enough, you can release it to perform your first attack. That's probably the easiest way of escaping an unwanted charge and although it might be problematic, it will be less problematic than using a charge or a finisher, no matter what sword you're using.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 22:09
#19
Knightofheaven's picture
Knightofheaven
lol seiran, i remember that

xD

That was hilarious.
People are so mean these days :( when they see someone dc they just go over and kill them for damage

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