Spiral Knights - Ridiculous and Unacceptable: Gran Faust Vs Acheron

Ridiculous and Unacceptable: Gran Faust Vs Acheron

60 replies [Last post]

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 15:09

Panthera-Leo

So, to the Developers: Did you ever come to realize that Acheron and Gran Faust Have the exact Same attack damage? I've looked at the damage bars and noticed how they are the same, disregarding Gran Faust's incorrect speed that has been there for ages, both the shadow and normal damage are the same. I've done some testing to verify this and I am correct, they both do have the exact same damage.

Showing all my attack stats and bonuses, and photos of them doing the same damage as I strike a slime punching bag, since my Acheron has Gremlin high.

Acheron and it's Stats : http://oi43.tinypic.com/34xm26q.jpg

Gran Faust and it's Stats: http://oi43.tinypic.com/dnzrwx.jpg

Me hitting the Slime Punching Bag With Acheron: http://oi39.tinypic.com/14wt5eb.jpg

Me hitting the Slime Punching Bag With Gran Faust: http://oi44.tinypic.com/nnaa0z.jpg

As you see, they both 304 Damage, This is very unacceptable in terms that the Gran Faust is slower, and a 2 hit sword, Curse does not count because it only has a chance of cursing someone. My suggestion is to return Acheron to it's normal Damage, and just lower Obsidian Edge's Damage output. Or perhaps You'd be better off buffing all brandishes to match Acheron since they are all supposed to have the same damage for their respectable elements, and then Buffing both Divine Avenger and Gran Faust since heavy swords are supposed to deal more damage.

I am sure there are other forum posts about this, but this is another reminder to the Developers to Please consider this Unfair Balance between the two swords, it ultimately makes Gran Faust a technically Inferior sword.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 15:51

Rezzler

^The reasoning behind it is

^The reasoning behind it is that Acheron has no status, which would make buffing the rest of the brandishes illogical.

From this viewpoint, it makes sense.

However, the GF is a huge, glowing purple neon light sword. The Acheron is a slightly less impressive short katana. GF logically would need more damage (dps).

But realostically, dont count on OOO being smart anytime in the future. They wouldnt know balance eve if they played the most horridly unbalanced game ever made.

The easiest solution would be to set the Acheron damage to somewhere between GF and Brandish dmg.

The best solution in terms of balance is to return acheron to previous damage and reduce dmg of other brandishes (to make dps fair).

Alternatively, OOO could buff all dmg of heavy swords. Not a good idea.

Lets be honest. No matter what is brought up, OOO wont be able to think of a logical solution. Best to just go along with whatever dumb stuff they do.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 17:12

Flowchart

I'd rather they kept the buffed charge damage if they felt it was necessary, but returned the damage of normal swings back to what they used to be. The normal swings don't do status with the other brandishes, so there is no need for Acheron's to have a higher damage to compensate.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 17:50

Sandwich-Potato

It's called the Suggestions section.

Move it.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 18:34

Exerpa

Considering that none of the

Considering that none of the Obsidian weapons look poisonous, the sensible thing would have been to just glue poison onto the existing sword and bomb.

Opportunity to introduce the pure shadow sword everyone has talked about for years? Wasted.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 18:43

Panthera-Leo

EDIT

Moved post to suggestions as requested by Sandwich-Potato.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 19:28

Mayaura

also, remember

Gran Faust has a knockback effect, which can be very valuable in some situations.

When I hit something with my GF, I know I'm not gonna get hit back, whereas when you go in swinging with an acheron, you're mos tlikey gonna take some damage.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 19:32

Fehzor

^Then why aren't you using volcanic pepperbox over blitz?

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 20:21

Dibsville

Well you see.

^Then why aren't you using volcanic pepperbox over blitz?
Ohhh, got 'em.

Brandishes, in general, need to be nerfed. There's no way around it. They've always been overpowered monsters, this is just one of the first times people have made such a huge fit about it. I mean, I hate it too, but seriously? You have both the Acheron and the GF. Is there a reason for that? Do you have both simply because they fit different situations, or because one's an overpowered monster and you'd be wrong not to get it.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 20:55

Avihr

LOL nope

Yes, GF has knockback on its normal hits, and a wider swing than acheron, but nothing that good ol brandish can't do with its OP charge attack.
In most situations for PvE (if not all of them) it is way more useful to bring an acheron over a GF, just because u can do better dps to single monsters and clear large areas of monsters with it's charge, and also deal insane damage while at it, i see no reason at all why someone would choose GF over acheron other than a personal prefference or just because you want to change ur play style.
the only place i find both weapons to be somewhat equal is on LD, and there, the curse advantage almost dissapears since using the second swing is highly unreasonable in most situations even if you have max ASI UV or something.

so, no... not really, acheron can do the same as a GF and even better, sorry, thats my opinion.

Fri, 11/29/2013 - 21:15

#10

Avihr

Doublepostmuch

darn

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 00:57

#11

Zeddy

Acheron vs Gran Faust is somewhat debatable.

Acheron vs Leviathan Blade? Not so much.

And let's not forget that Gran Faust is also overpowered. Compare Gran Faust to Sudaruska. Gran Faust is both faster and stronger while having the same area coverage.

All split damage swords need to be nerfed. The simplest would be to make them have only one damage type.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 05:58

#12

Blitzsonic

Acheron was buffed because

Acheron was buffed because the obsidian edge was added. A "real" fix for this would be to nerf the obsidian edge, reduce the damage of the acheron(still more than other brandishes, but not that much).

@Zeddy

Making them only 1 damage type would allow more damage against other monsters, but it would be worse against others. This would make the warmaster rocket hammer outclassed by other swords. How about increasing the sudaruska/ice troika's damage even higher so they can 1 hit most of the enemies even on a full party ?

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 06:25

#13

Zeddy

@Blitzsonic

Not a single thing you said is true or makes any sense.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 06:35

#14

Canine-Vladmir

wait. question.

Does that mean the Archeron does more Damage Per Minute over the Gran Faust?

I own both swords but Archeron @ LvL 4. I prefer using the GF either way.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 07:11

#15

Blitzsonic

@Zeddy

If you would make all swords only deal their specialized damage, then this would happen:

Elemental Sword

150% damage against construct(125% if it's normal and elemental)

50% damage against beasts(or even less, 75% damage if it's normal and elemental)

Some of the arenas are already trolling enough, by putting slimes into fiend levels, or spawning mechas in the beast arenas.

The warmaster rocket hammer is currently the only sword that does pure specialized damage, and it should stay like that, so that it doesn't get underpowered.

How about this:
Reduce the damage of the acheron, so it's a bit less than gran faust, but still more than the other brandishes. Buff both, DA and GF and buff both troika swords. Simple fix that doesn't mess up the complete sword line.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 07:16

#16

Bopp

response

Zeddy, Blitzsonic's first paragraph makes a lot of sense. Acheron was going to be less powerful than Obsidian/Combuster/etc., so they buffed it. Of course, a better solution would have been to nerf Obsidian/Combuster/etc. Granted, his second paragraph is not good.

Canine-Vladmir, Acheron has always done much more DPS than Gran Faust. See data and analysis here. The only way that Gran Faust has ever been competitive is if you can hit multiple targets with it. Then you can get some nice DPS.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 07:16

#17

Zeddy

@Blitzsonic

Damage types do not work like that. Please don't make things up.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 07:45

#18

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

OOO balance team

No but seriously, Brandish line need some good ol' nerfhammer wacking from Blizzard, way too powerful in so many situation...

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 11:39

#19

Blitzsonic

@Bopp

The problem:

Obsidian Edge does shadow and a status effect

Acheron has the same damage without the status effect

Normally, weapons with a stauts effect deal less damage/weapons without a status effect deal more.
The acheron always dealt the same as the other brandishes, so it needed a buff. OOO forgot that the gf existed, so we have this problem.
I would suggest this:
reduce the acheron damage(a bit more than obsidian, but less than gf)

@Sharmanala
Having a Brandish isn't always too powerful. It's a pain in gremlin levels since you won't deal great damage against them. If a line is good, doesn't mean that it needs to be nerfed. The only problem here is the acheron and nothing else.

@Zeddy
The Brandish line does split normal and split elemental(or shadow)

50% of that damage will always be normal
50% of that is specialized

This means that you are able to do a bit better damage against enemies that are weak against the specialized damage without having to worry too much about dealing too bad damage on enemies that are strong against the specialized damage.

The warmaster hammer or the barbarous thorn blade deal pure specialized damage(elemental or piercing)
so, you will do 100% elemental

This is very good against enemies that are weak against the specialized damage since 100% of your damage will get a bonus(this is only 50% on the brandish for example). However, this is very bad against enemies that are strong against that specialized damage since you won't have 50% normal damage, so you will deal way less damage.

Here is a example:

Normal/Elemental Sword

Damage on neutal enemies
100
Damage on weak enemies
125
Damage on strong enemies
75

Pure Elemental

Damage on neutral
100
Damage on weak
150
Damage on strong
50

This is how the damage system works(it's not exactly 25%/50% difference, it's a bit more)

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 11:47

#20

Bopp

Blitzsonic

Blitzsonic, you don't have to explain the imbalance to me. We've been talking about this imbalance for weeks, in numerous threads. We all understand it already.

Blitzsonic, the damage system does not work in the way that you think it does. It is somewhat counterintuitive. For this reason, extensive research has been done, trying to figure out the exact nature of the damage calculation. And which player has been the leading researcher on this topic, at least in recent months? Zeddy. You might want to read the Wiki Editors forum, before trying to argue any more with him.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 12:32

#21

Blitzsonic

@Bopp

That "problem situation" was for everyone, not only for you, sorry if it sounded like that. As far as i understand damage, it works somewhat like that, having full specialized damage deals more on monsters that are weak to it, than having mixed damage, but it also does way less on resistant monsters.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 13:02

#22

Bopp

okay, but still incorrect

Okay, Blitzsonic. And in case I sound argumentative, I'm not really. I'm just trying to help clarify this thread.

Suppose that you're fighting some undead. You want to use elemental weapons against them, right? Does it matter whether the weapons are pure elemental, or mixed normal+elemental?

The obvious answer is that pure elemental weapons would be better, because you will see a bigger "damage boost" against undead, right? That's how it should work, if the damage boost is proportional to the "base damage" of the weapon.

But that's not how damage works in Spiral Knights. Rather, the damage boost is a fixed number, such as 65. (The exact number depends on the level, and low-damage attacks work differently, but this is the key idea anyway.) This number applies, whether the weapon is pure elemental or only partly elemental. So, for example, here is a better comparison:

pure elemental sword
against vulnerable: 365
against neutral: 300
against resistant: 50

mixed normal+elemental sword
against vulnerable: 365
against neutral: 300
against resistant: 175

You are correct that mixed weapons incur a smaller penalty against resistant monsters. But you are incorrect that pure weapons incur a larger bonus against vulnerable monsters. That's why Zeddy proposed making the overpowered swords pure special damage. They wouldn't be any stronger against their vulnerable monsters; they'd just be weaker against their resistant types.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 13:43

#23

Blitzsonic

@Bopp

The gunner guide says that pure damage does more/gives more advantage than mixed one(sword guide says that mixed doesn't allow the max damage output possible in sk, but pure damage does).

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 14:27

#24

Bopp

guides are not always right

Those guides are written by players, just like us. The guides are not perfect. In fact, the Swordmaster Guide is pretty bad --- that's why I wrote my own sword guide a couple of years ago.

There are no mixed damage guns, so I can't imagine why the Gunslinger Guide would have such a statement. Maybe it is a holdover from the days when Argent and Sentenza were mixed piercing+elemental and piercing+shadow?

In any event, it is demonstrably false that pure elemental weapons get a bigger damage boost against undead (for example) than mixed normal+elemental weapons do. Just look at the damage tables for Warmaster Rocket Hammer (pure elemental) vs. Divine Avenger (mixed normal+elemental) at depth 28:

WRH vs. vulnerable: 340, 241, 403, 550
WRH vs. neutral: 258, 153, 321, 468
differences: 82, 88, 82, 82

DA vs. vulnerable: 328, 445, 682
DA vs. neutral: 234, 363, 600
differences: 94, 82, 82, 82

As you can see, the difference between vulnerable and neutral damage is almost always 82. There are two exceptions, which occur in low-damage cases, where a different calculation takes over, that we don't yet fully understand. But in one of those cases, DA gets an even bigger vulnerability bonus than WRH does.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 14:21

#25

Panthera-Leo

Some thoughts.

Mawashimono and Aviri both make a good point about the stronger knock-back which is quite something to be considerable, and it does have a wider arc as well, not sure why I still use Gran Faust in Lockdown if its more preferable but it's still a good sword for trapping someone in a swing combo.

@Dibsville: I have both swords because I like to have a complete arsenal, just my own preference if anything. while brandishes are over-powered, they still have their weaknesses.. such as the knock-back and range, but I do see what you mean though.

@Bopp, Blitzsonic, Zeddy: Pure elemental weapons would take some getting used to of course, as a lot of us remember, they turned the Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza from their split specialized damages to pure elemental and shadow for their respective type, took some getting used to and the guns lost their versatility in certain situations but it was definitely not an "End of the World" kind of change, even speaking of shard bombs. (damage wise, not ability wise) But I personally believe they should have just left all other swords alone and proportioned a lower damage output for Obsidian Edge, similarly to the Alchemer guns ; Nova Driver is superior in elemental damage compared to the 3 other status causing ones, so this should be the case with Obsidian Edge and Acheron, I know there is no Nova Driver equivalent sword to apply this to, but it's still a concept that is understandable, and applicable. As for the overall fact that the other 3 elemental brandish swords have status effects and Acheron does not, should not be something to be considered as Acheron is Shadow Damage, and the other 3 swords are elemental, Just my take on this, some may think differently from this and it's understandable, there are many suggestions that can be quite amazing ideas for the game.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 19:30

#26

Zeddy

The reason why specializing damage matters more for guns than for swords is simply because swords deal more damage.

65 is a lot compared to 150. It's a bit less compared to 300.

Sat, 11/30/2013 - 21:32

#27

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

It's a pain in gremlin levels since you won't deal great damage against them.

Wait what? You mean Acheron is a pain to bring vs Gremlins? Really? and then you want us to take you seriously? Like the Dark Retribution is awful against Gremlins?

The problem is beyond Acheron, the buff made it OP, the brandish lines are already OP and everybody knows it... SK = Wolver, brandish, swiftstrike/BTS, period...

But let's stick to Acheron, if you touch one of the line, the whole line needs a tune-up or tune-down

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 02:20

#28

Blitzsonic

@Shamanala

You said that the brandish line needs a nerf. 3 of 5 do elemental damage, so guess which one i meant. Also, why are brandishes op ? They can 3 hit neutral or weak enemies, the leviathan blade can do the same thing and doesn't have a weakness(most brandishes deal elemental, so you might want to use it in a construct level, but there are mostly gremlins in a construct level and i'm sure that not all players will have multiple swords at the beginning/middle of the game).

@Sirthomasrb @Bopp

All brandishes had a set number of damage, acheron had the same but it didn't have a status effect, so it was already weaker, but noone cared about that since it was a shadow sword and OOO wanted that shadow defense/damage is rare.

OOO took the damage from a elemental brandish(since they do a status effect) and then noticed that the acheron doesn't deal more damage, so they buffed it and probably forgot about the GF. Reducing the damage of the obsidian edge would probably not work that well, since it would deal less damage than the other brandishes, so acheron needs to deal more damage, but less than the gf.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 03:44

#29

Zeddy

Acheron is OP because:

Lancer Knightz sword damage

Charge attack deals
804 + 5 x 263 = 2119 damage against weak enemies
739 + 5 x 191 = 1694 damage against neutral enemies
440 + 5 x 124 = 1060 against resistant enemies

Here is the list of mobs this weapon can NOT oneshot:
Zombies and Greavers will have 40 HP remaining.
Trojans and Deadnaughts are impossible to hit with the full charge. You'd need 4 charge attacks.
Howlitzers and Kats can't be hit with the full charge. Assuming charge stroke + 1 explosion, they will have 169 HP remaining.

Acheron is capable of oneshotting everything else.

For a complete list of enemies that Acheron can oneshot, see this page.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 05:12

#30

Misty-Wellington

The GF has a wide swing that you can only get on Acheron through the use of Chargespamming. I actually still prefer to use GF over Acheron unless I'm up against Lichens, then I use Obsidian Edge. Although it's still not fully heated thanks to the Radiant Drought, the poison is useful for debuffing Lichen Colonies.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 05:29

#31

Shamanalah

my 2 cents

Brandish charge != Levi charge...

Leviathan was my first sword and I love it with all my heart, but Brandish are in many ways superior... Shadow dmg has so little family counter....

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 05:46

#32

Blitzsonic

@Zeddy

We all know that problem, acheron needs a little damage nerf, so that it still does more damage than the obsidian edge but less than the gran faust.

@Shamanala

Yes, but if you want to deal good damage against most enemies, you will need 2 swords=2 slots=weapon slot ?(very useful since you need a gun to reach some switches, and the pots are not always in a good place for that.)

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 05:48

#33

Hexzyle

Hey Zeddy, Thecriderman showed me something interesting. Apparently, damage works on "base weapon-class damage" and then a number is added to or subtracted from that base in order to get the weapon line's "base damage", which is then put through a multiplier or whatnot to equal the damage at a certain depth.

Example: (These are actual values)

Haze bomb's blast is "BOMB BASE DMG - 10"
Nova Driver does "GUN BASE DMG + 5"
Flourish is "SWORD BASE DMG + 0"

Would explain why some weapons deal identical damage.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 06:10

#34

Bopp

lots of weapons

It's true that lots of weapons share damage values. But that description of yours needs a lot more detail, right?

If you wish to continue developing the idea, let's move to a different thread, such as the "Damage to Lost Souls at Depth 24" thread in Wiki Editors.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 07:16

#35

Zeddy

@Blitzsonic

I don't think you understand the real problem.

Acheron is only 4% stronger than other brandishes.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 13:31

#36

Blitzsonic

@Zeddy

It seems like the sealed line needs a buff(didn't OOO nerf the sealed damage a lot) or the brandish needs a nerf(probably that's what is going to happen.) The brandish does the same damage like the leviathan blade, so not sure if a nerf would be that good. I know that the non status alchemers do a lot more damage, but they can inflict the status on any hit, while the brandishes only do on charge.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 13:43

#37

Dibsville

No.

Sealed Swords don't need a buff whatsoever-- if anything they need to be nerfed.

Also, ALL guns inflict their status on the normal shots.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 13:54

#38

Zeddy

@Blitzsonic

"The brandish does the same damage like the leviathan blade"

Not really. The first hit if you consider no damage bonus whatsoever (nobody uses no damage bonus) are pretty close. Consider any other attack or any other amount of damage bonus and you'll start to see Brandish pull ahead a lot.

Is it fair for Brandish to do the same damage as Levi, if that was actually the case? Levi can't set things on fire.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 14:00

#39

Whimsicality

When I was new, I was always under the impression that pure Normal weapons did more damage than split damage weapons did against Neutral targets, as compensation for lack of specialization. It would make sense if this was the case.

Sun, 12/01/2013 - 14:28

#40

Panthera-Leo

More Thoughts

@Blitzsonic: You're probably right when you state that the Developers forgot Gran Faust when buffing Acheron, plus shadow weapons ARE quite rare and uncommon among the entire arsenal, though when you make that Levi Vs Acheron statement, it's debatable since I do feel like my specialized weapons are better than my normal damage ones in a lot of cases, not just from having all my slots unlocked and usable but to the fact the specialized ones have normal damage as well, and that would mean they are versatile against anything but most effective against their respectable weak monsters and vice versa, thus at many times, my normal damage swords sit and collect dust.

@Zeddy: Those values you put are interesting and further show that maybe normal damage is the issue in these weapons, It's less realistic if normal damage were to be removed, but makes more sense when it comes to balancing the game. pure damage for specialized weapons may be a great buff and increase the usefulness of normal damage weapons, they've done the whole pure damage system with guns in whole, and flourish lines have pure pierce of course, right? wouldn't be a bad idea to indeed just make all other pure damage, when we speak of buffs in general, however.

Realism isn't much of a element in this discussion so my apologies for adding that to my statement above, but just putting out there, that it's the only downside of having pure damage weapons. (for some at least, flourish seems about right for it's family) But of course I see no other downside, Pure damage is the best answer to the whole Overpowered part of the issue, plus assuring that Gran Faust is still superior to Acheron in damaging upon the first strike (which was my original issue in this thread, but some posts gave me realizations of a lot of split damage swords being much too powerful)

Mon, 12/02/2013 - 10:39

#41

Blitzsonic

@Zeddy

The wiki says that combuster does the same amout of damage than the leviathan blade, so sorry about that. I don't know what the devs were thinking, but why should a brandish do more damage than the leviathan blade ? I agree with a damage nerf so the normal 3 attacks do the same damage as a leviathan blade, but I don't agree with less damage, the alchemers do less damage if they have a status effect, but that effect is for every attack and not only for the charge, leviathan's charge can also deal a bit more damage, so i'm guessing that this makes up for that.
Maybe we could test some weapons and talk about some fixes for weapons in the advanced training hall.

@Dibsville
The sealed line is a slow sword line, speed <-------------->damage, so the damge of it is ok(sure it's trolling in pvp, but that would be a pvp change and not the sword).

I never said that the alchemers didn't do the status on all attacks, I said that the brandish line only does the status on charge, so a huge damage nerf wouldn't be good.

Mon, 12/02/2013 - 14:50

#42

Dibsville

Actually.

EDIT: Sorry again-- just arguing for the sake of arguing. Carry on.

Mon, 12/02/2013 - 22:55

#43

Zeddy

@Blitzsonic

Alchemers only do moderate status, not strong. Strong status is much more potent than moderate.

And shouldn't at least the charge attack be doing less damage? Straight from the wiki, d24:
Levi: 355
Combuster: 481

Regarding Sealed Sword, I agree that less speed should mean more damage. That's why Sealed Sword needs a nerf. It's much stronger than the Troika line per hit despite being faster. (And before you just cite the wiki, check the second hit, the charge hits, and also damage when under the effect of damage bonus.)

@Whimsicality
Your impression possibly comes from Hot Edge and Static Edge. Those are kind of borked and do less damage than Bolted Blade even against constructs and undead.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 02:53

#44

Scirio

This is our Odyssey.

I'm not sure if any of you guys know this. But.

It is extremely difficult to use Acheron efficiently in LD, I dislike AT so I don't use it so using that small swing from Acheron effectively requires some form of practice. GF is pretty much swing and watch stuff die. Although, once you've mastered Acheron you'll be unstoppable I suppose. Or you could just switch on AT if you want the easy way out.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 04:10

#45

Zeddy

Oh that's right, I forgot Lockdown was the only aspect of Spiral Knights to look at when balancing things.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 06:52

#46

Draycos

Brandishes are disgustingly OP in almost every scenario.

-Strong statuses you can inflict when you choose to.
-Incredible damage.
-Borked damage calculations.
-Safe attack speed.
-No movement penalties while charging.
-Charge can be shield-cancelled to make it nearly instant.
-Reliable knockback.
-Flinches on charge and third consecutive attack.
-Easy to obtain.
-Can be used anywhere, thanks to Acheron covering Shadow damage.
-Can be used as a slow ranged weapon.

I still have no idea why they added 2 explosions to the charge without nerfing it.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 12:24

#47

Blitzsonic

@Zeddy

For some reason, I used the 2nd hit damage for the charge, so sorry for that again. Nerfing the charge would be ok, but it still needs to do enough damage so that the full wave is enough to kill normal or weak mobs on elite 4 parties.

Nerfing sealed... Wouldn't this mean that their damage would be even more down to the brandish/leviathan line ? Buffing the troika *might* be a better idea, but not sure about this, because nerfing it would probably remove the 2 hit on strikers in ld, which would make everyone rage since it's one of the main weapons in ld.

@Draycos

The damage is almost the same, or should be the same as leviathan
Same attack speed, so nothing overpowered here
Leviathan and other 3 hit swords don't give less speed, so....
Retrodes can release their charge even after being hit or defeated
Not really, shock and freeze stops the mobs from getting the full charge damage
doesn't the 3rd hit of all 3 swing weapons flinch ? and it isn't that strong flinch from the sealed line.
easy to obtain ? I think leviathan is a lot easier
Can be used everywhere, yes, that's true but you will always have some damage problems against some enemies and need to craft multiple swords.
So, we aren't allowed to have a bomb in a sword ?

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 13:08

#48

Zeddy

"but it still needs to do enough damage so that the full wave is enough to kill normal or weak mobs on elite 4 parties."

Why?

As for your counterpoints to Draycos. I could debunk them one at a time...

...so I will!

"The damage is almost the same, or should be the same as leviathan"

We have been through this. They're not close.

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Sword_Damage_(Depth_24)
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Sword_Damage_(Depth_24)
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Sword_Damage_(Depth_24)
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_(Guild)/Sword_Damage_(Depth_24)

I'm linking it multiple times because you're clearly not looking at it. Please look at it and stop perpetuating the lie that Brandish and Levi are anywhere remotely close in terms of damage versus neutral targets.

Levi does 271, 331, 471
Brandish does 325, 423, 660

This isn't even bringing things like Maskeraith's buff and Recon flares into the picture:

Levi during maskeraith buff: 431, 515, 725
Brandish during maskeraith buff: 559, 697, 1028

Levi during deathmark: 402, 462, 602
Brandish during deathmark: 587, 685, 922

Levi during both: 533, 646, 856
Brandish during both: 849, 959, 1290

Don't use damage when there is no damage bonus to compare things.

And don't tell me recon flares aren't relevant because they're rare. This principle applies to all defence debuffs, including:
Poison
Seraphinx disintegration ray
Deathmark in Lockdown<

And this isn't even dragging Acheron into the picture, which is obviously much more obscene.

Speaking of Acheron: " I agree with a damage nerf so the normal 3 attacks do the same damage as a leviathan blade, but I don't agree with less damage, the alchemers do less damage if they have a status effect,"

How does any of this justify Acheron being stronger than Brandishes then? Acheron doesn't have a status on just the charge and so the whole sword is stronger?

Acheron should have the exact damage of Leviathan. Not slightly more. Certainly nothing close to as much more as it currently does. It does more damage to beasts than Final Flourish, and that's ridiculous.

"Same attack speed, so nothing overpowered here"
"Leviathan and other 3 hit swords don't give less speed, so..."
"Retrodes can release their charge even after being hit or defeated"

The speed of the combo would be fine if it had the same damage as Levi. However, unleashing a Levi charge leaves you exposed for a while. This doesn't happen with Brandish, you can move almost instantly by shield-canceling.

"Not really, shock and freeze stops the mobs from getting the full charge damage"

Good thing there isn't a fire version and a version with stupidly high damage, then.

"doesn't the 3rd hit of all 3 swing weapons flinch ? and it isn't that strong flinch from the sealed line."

Flinching on the third hit and the actual charge hit would be fine if it wasn't for all the other overpowered aspect. However, try flinching elite zombies in a 4-man party using Sudaruska's charge attack. It can't be done. You can with a Brandish, though. This is probably just a result of the obscene damage, however.

"easy to obtain ? I think leviathan is a lot easier"

'cause of the recipes? That's nothing compared to getting the orbs and crystals. You get a brandish recipe for free and the rest are sold by the cobalt guy.

"Can be used everywhere, yes, that's true but you will always have some damage problems against some enemies and need to craft multiple swords."

No you won't.

That's Theirillusion killing Vanaduke in 8 minutes using Acheron and DR. I spent over 10 minutes using Dark Briar Barrage and Nitronome and over 13 using Splinter Bomb and Shard Bomb. Combuster is also perfectly capable of killing Beasts and Gremlins. You can pick any Brandish and do fine anywhere.

"So, we aren't allowed to have a bomb in a sword ?"

Well, we're not allowed to have a sword in a bomb.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 14:06

#49

Draycos

I really shouldn't make extremely poorly clarified posts hours before having access to an actual keyboard.

Zeddy pretty much did all of the work for me, but I feel like I should at least say a couple things, myself..

It does have some similarities with Leviathan (FoV is markedly slower, though, and statuses on any hit). I mentioned this because it has all the other advantages over Leviathan while still being able to do everything Leviathan can.

What do Retrodes have anything to do with Brandishes being overpowered? Hope you aren't assuming that they do just because they have a similar attack...

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 14:12

#50

Mushy-Bucket

---

@Zeddy & Draycos
All very correct, I don't have anything left to say.

But, we all know OOO. The next step will be to make brandish charges attack through walls/outside the map, and do statuses on every attack, right?
That'd sound like a thing they'd do. Of course, they'd also give Acheron Curse on every hit and make GF do 150 damage with +6 attack on jellies, right?
I'm still waiting for when the brandishes have a nitronome blast on every attack; at least, I don't have any doubts they'd do that.

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Ridiculous and Unacceptable: Gran Faust Vs Acheron