Spiral Knights - UV revamp suggestion [Gemstone upgrade]

UV revamp suggestion [Gemstone upgrade]

13 replies [Last post]

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 03:00

Midnight-Dj

Plz, hear me out. (this might have been suggested before, but here we go anyway)

So about two months ago, Draycos complained about the RNG randomness of the puch UV system and just how unfair and how much a crown sink it is. My arguement is, making UV too accessible, you run the risk of pissing off the veterans who spend millions on good UVs and now seeing any noobs can get good UV at their first try. Of course Draycos did not care and proceeded to say RNG is bad despite the RNG is fair to everyone. (if you think RNG is unfair to you, don't spend money on punch or play LD!)

Here is how I would make the high end UVs more accessible to the players and give them more control over the UVs they wanted on their weapons while still making it a money burning quest. A very slow one that is.

Before the suggestion begin, here is the things that need to be changed first:
-all sprite food now cost mats only, no mineral involved
-the size of the crystal you get from the mineral deposite depend on the stratums that you are in, not random, the deep your are in clockwork, the bigger crystals you get.
-you can no longer aquire natrual UVs from crafting gears
-mineral is now trade-able

"Wut?! That sounds bull Midnight!!!"
Calm down, the idea, like the title suggested, is to allow players to put Gemstones into their weapons to enhence their power, or UVs.
Every weapon starts with one gemstone slot at the moment they are crafted. And you can unlock two additional gem slots from punch.

2nd slot -25K

3rd slot -150K (if OOO thinks that one free slot is too cheap, then 9K for the first slot)

Once you unlocked a gem slot on your weapon or gear, you can then craft the gemstones needed to be etched into the weapon giving it UVs.
Here are some of the gems you can craft:
Flawed Ruby(crimsonite): giving a random low damage bonus -limited to weapons only
Flawed Sapphire(darkmatter): giving a low ASI to one of the three weapon type -limited to weapons only
Flawed Amber(luminite): giving a low CTR to one of the three weapon type -limited to weapons only
Flawed Emerald(valestone): giving a low defence to one of the three damage type -limited to armor and shield only
Flawed Agate(moonstone): giving a low resistance to one of the six statues -limited to armor and shield only

You make these gemstones by aquiring minerals across the clockworks and by collecting the minerals, you can craft them into gemstones. And you can craft multiple gemstones until you find the UV that you desired. For example, if you have a gran faust and you happen to have a Ruby with a gremlin low on it, you can put it in the gran faust so it kicks Gremlin's butt extra hard. And the same can be applied to other weapons.

"Sounds good and all but how can these gemstone get better? A low UV sux."

Here is where patience becomes a virtue. You have to combine three gems of the same colour and apply mineral and heat crystals of the next tier, sprinkle some crowns and walla! You got a gem with a 2+ UV!

Ruby (Gremlin low) +Ruby (Gremlin low) +Ruby (Gremlin low)+ 50 something med crimsonite/warm crystals +1000 Cr= Ruby (Gremlin med)

The better the gem, the larger the mineral crystal you need to craft:
1* gem (flawed) +1---->small 50 Cr
2* gem (normal) +2----> med 250 Cr
3* gem (polished) +3----> large 1000 Cr
4* gem (exalted) +4----> shiny 2500 Cr
5* gem (legendary/Epic) +5/6----> I have no idea :/

"Five star gems have a chance of having 5+ not 6+ ? That is stupid!!!"
Well, like I have said, I can't make it too easy on you guys, so what if your 5* gem only got a 5+ at the end? It is already good enough. And also, the gems can be removed at any time, for a price at least, every time you craft, you need to take the gem off the weapon and combine them with the new ones you find. Again, here is where you burn money. You can always be smart and put the gem on later in the game.

An end game PvE archeron could be like this:
Gemslot one: Legendary ruby (gremlin +5)
Gemslot two: Epic ruby (this guy is lucky) (slime +6)
Gemslot three: Legendary Amber (CTR +5) <---beat that Radiant drought!!!

The idea is flawed and imbalanced, but plz, this is just some food for thought, share your opinion if you want.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 03:52

Zaffy-Laffy

I am curious of your source of idea for this, lots of games have this "socketing" technique involved., such as Diablo, Torchlight. But nonetheless, I find this socketing technique overall better for everyone, even the beginners. Rather than follow a very hated random system, everyone can build up their weapon and armor based on socketing.

I think that unlocking socket slots is acceptable as a crown sink, but crafting gems out of minerals is somewhat grinding. Rather than that, would it be possible if gems drop as a random loot, and that certain gems be found in certain types of levels... for example crimsonite gems are found in fire levels

Crimsonite : Fire, Gremlin
Dark Matter : Fiend, Undead,
Luminite : Beast, Construct
Valestone : Poison, Jelly
Moonstone : Freeze, Shock

One problem I detect is that it is not completely suitable for multiplayer action, because of the way some people have stronger weapons than others. This socketing technique is purely meant for singleplayer action, but who knows, I'm just skeptical.

One improvement if I may, is that removing the socketed gem will destroy it. This is the way of all the games that bring about this socketing technique. The other way, destroy the weapon :3 to save your gems.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 05:47

Exerpa

Easy mode: Drop trinkets into

Easy mode: Drop trinkets into UV slots.

Also
>you can no longer aquire natrual UVs from crafting gears
How about no.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:10

Tedme

I like the way you think, doctor sir.

I'm not sure about gemstones, but what about making UVs more common and more of an item. Here, let me explain:

Starting off, Punch would gain a new ticket to REMOVE a UV for free.
"But wait, how could that help!?"
Not only would it remove a UV for free, it would give the player removing it 5,000 crowns. In other words, the player would sell it for a decent amount of money. On other notes, when you use a ticket for a UV that will replace one you already have, there should be a discount. For example, if you use a one UV ticket to replace one you already have, you would get a discount of, say, 6,000 crowns? If you use a ticket to replace two of your UVs, you would gain a 11,000 crown discount. And for three, a 16,000 crown discount. This would allow players many bonuses on 'trading' UVs, so to speak.
Lastly, an idea to make the forge system more enjoyable and make UVs more common. Correct, if you use enough Fire Crystals you get a decent chance of getting a UV.

So, what do you think?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:07

Draycos

You made a call, I'll make a response.

"Draycos complained about the RNG randomness of the pu[n]ch UV system and just how unfair and how much a crown sink it is."
I complained about the RNG, but my entire suggestion built off of the fact that it was a crown sink and why that was a good thing and how it should stay that way but be less random.

"My arguement is, making UV too accessible, you run the risk of pissing off the veterans who spend millions on good UVs and now seeing any noobs can get good UV at their first try. Of course Draycos did not care and proceeded to say RNG is bad despite the RNG is fair to everyone. (if you think RNG is unfair to you, don't spend money on punch or play LD!)"
Your "argument" is fundamentally flawed, like I mentioned over and over in that same thread and why I "didn't care".
Just because it's random for everyone doesn't make it fair. It says it right in the name: "R.andom N.umber G.enerator." Hence the 'guy spends millions and gets nothing, other guy spends pocket change and gets everything' example that was thrown around so very much. It's not hard to understand. You literally cannot argue that it's fair.

"If you don't like relying on luck, don't bother with it!" isn't a valid excuse either. Having a good (or even decent) UV makes the difference between being forced to use certain gear to play certain ways or not; ASI makes guns and swords better overall and makes them safer to use, CTR makes bombing much more viable. Having CTR on a bomb makes the difference between being 'annoying special effects crew' and 'the team player'. Having ASI on a sword makes the difference between being 'the guy who only uses fast swords so they don't get punished by fast enemies' and 'the guy who uses all kinds of swords and isn't stomped for it'. So on and so forth.

Now that all the annoying personal stuff is out of the way...

______________________

"-all sprite food now cost mats only, no mineral involved
-the size of the crystal you get from the mineral deposite depend on the stratums that you are in, not random, the deep your are in clockwork, the bigger crystals you get.
-you can no longer aquire natrual UVs from crafting gears
-mineral is now trade-able"

-...which means minerals are only used for UVs and gate creation, but nobody cares about gate creation..
-...theoretically this makes perfect sense, but it also makes the divide between new and old players even bigger; newer players will have almost no influence on a gate and older players will have massive influence. Might also conflict with the upcoming Arcade Redux, or it might fit perfectly well, we'll have to wait and see.
-No. This is one of the only reasons why crafting is still better than flat-out buying an item from the Depot (besides being "cheaper").
-Minerals aren't tradeable, but the items made by them are, and this is because raw minerals are used to influence what gates end up being. In a sense, it stops people from "buying" a gate theme, and also forces them to play the game in order to have some meaningful impact.

"truly outrageous gems!!"

This is almost exactly what my old suggestion is except with minerals and other things thrown into the mix... which, by all means, is a better idea than just flat crowns.

Rather than combining two of the same gem, you should flat-out upgrade a single gem at a time.
There should definitely not be a chance to get a +5 or +6. That defeats the entire purpose of an RNG-free system, the removal of chance.

I personally believe that socketed UVs should have high crafting costs in addition to the slot-expansion costs; there needs to be at least some sense of progress.

Then there's the problem of an "ideal" build that invalidates other UVs. Warframe has a system in which you find modifications for your gear by fighting enemies and meeting special criteria (doing certain missions, finding and opening a vault, participating in an event, etc.). The purpose of a mod system rather than the skill tree the early stages of the game had was to diversify players' builds, and make it so there wasn't one clear set of abilities that was better than everything else. It happened anyway, because not all mods are equal.

Just like how not all UVs are equal.

ASI is more important than family-specific damage, and CTR is the be-all end-all stat on some weapons, and not at all on other weapons. Why would anyone ever use +Construct +CTR +Jelly on a Flourish when they could use +ASI +Beast +Fiend instead? And more importantly, why would anyone ever not use ASI on a gun or sword, or CTR on a bomb? It just ends up giving the illusion of diversity.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:54

Midnight-Dj

@Draycos

the purpose of this system is to make the UV crown sink look like shallow pool. This system can provide players with a greater sense of accomplishment. Unlocking the first slot cost only 9K, which is something any defender knight should be able to afford, and at their level they should be able to crafted some 2* or 3* gems with relatively small amount of money. But here is where the cost stacks up.

You need two 2* gems of the same colour and stats to craft a 3* gem of the same colour and higher stats and so on, an end game knight will have to craft atleast 16 1* gems of the same colour to get a 5* gems (hence why I want the minerals and the gems to be trabable so it is less painful). The proccess takes longer but you spend only a little bit of money at a time. For newbies, they can always just roll with one slot and a 4* gem with a decent 4* UV.

The idea of the gem socket system is to give players alot more control over the UV they want, and if they are not happy with the UV, they can always spend money and remove them. And as for the 5+/6+ legendary/epic gems, I disagree, this system cannot allow everyone in the game roam free with 6+ UVs, epic gems are meant to be an achievement for the end game/hard core players, if you didn't get an epic gem, you can always start over (here is where the crown sink begins, alot gems will be needed to craft an epic gem, sure, some unlucky/impatient knights will never get one, but is 5+ UV (ultra) all that bad?)

"It just ends up giving the illusion of diversity."-Draycos
But aren't you the one who believes RNG is a bad system? Yet RNG gives diversity to this game? Almost no weapon or gear in this game can have the same UVs as the next thanks to the RNG system and yet you are not happy with it. And here I am, giving you all the controls you need over the UVs you wanted (less randomness), and now you think it is killing the diversity?

This sytem allow every players in this game to have good UVs without robbing them of their wallets due to bad luck. As long as you work hard, craft the gems you need, you can get a UV that is just as good as the next player. Here, your efforts are truely awarded, would you prefer this or would you prefer watching millions of crowns flushed down the punch toilet?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:12

Draycos

Don't you ":|" me mister

I'm not happy that you just skim over my comments and "argue" against me when I agreed with you with a lot of your points. Which, well, I should, since it's a slight mutation of my own idea..

"Unlocking the first slot cost only 9K, which is something any defender knight should be able to afford, and at their level they should be able to crafted some 2* or 3* gems with relatively small amount of money."

This is how it should be. I just think that the 2nd and 3rd slots should be more costly. In essence, the slots would cost crowns, and the gems would be (mainly) materials and minerals...

"epic gems are meant to be an achievement for the end game/hard core players, if you didn't get an epic gem, you can always start over (here is where the crown sink begins, alot gems will be needed to craft an epic gem, sure, some unlucky/impatient knights will never get one, but is 5+ UV (ultra) all that bad?)"

It isn't that bad, but it would be a slap in the face to min-maxers. Spend all that money... then oops you didn't get what you wanted try again wololo is the same situation with the RNG of today. It isn't a "sense of achievement", it's a "sense of 'oh god thank you for not making me do this again'," which is extremely similar to my reaction to the Black Kats and the Book of Dark Rituals. Smaller scale, same feeling. You can't seriously believe this would be fun.

"words words you're a hypocrite Draycos, more words"

You really can't stop thinking that whatever I say *has* to be against you. No, this isn't a problem that's part of your suggestion, this is a problem with UVs in general. I'm merely identifying it so I can fuel some more discussion. Also keep in mind that this problem already happens with the current system.

I wouldn't bring something as irrelevant as that without a reason, and my reason is this: if we're going to revamp UVs, we might as well make them balanced at the same time.

And just in case you missed it at the top of the post: I'm not saying absolutely everything against you. This is not a contest; this is a suggestions board. Don't treat me like "the guy I have to make wrong", because I'm not here to do that myself.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:09

Tedme

Well then...

Interesting ideas, no one bothers to look at mine or comment... lol, I fail.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:50

Midnight-Dj

:| :| :| :| :| :| >: )

@Tedme
Well, dude, you aren't really commenting on the gem upgrade system so much, instead you are making up a system of your own. If you really want your voice to be heard, you can always start a new thread.

ps. I am suprsied Hex Fehzor and some the other SK forum heavy weights haven't commented yet? Am I really a walking talking flame war? You guys do realized I only pick bones with Draycos and Mawashingmachine right?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:32

Tedme

Ok....

Let me be clear. I think that your system could work, but would take too much work. I think the RNG system we have is just fine, but if you want change it, my thought was why not make UVs more of an item?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:38

#10

Tedme

Also...

It sounds a lot like decorations in Monster Hunter 3: Ultimate.

Please realize, I'm not saying I dislike your idea. I just think it's a bit too complex. That's all.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 13:44

#11

Mushy-Bucket

---

The problem with this suggestion overall is that the game has had the current RNG system to long to replace it with a non-RNG one without massive veteran-based backlash. It would be like making UVs a rare mob drop. I didn't spend all my time and crowns rolling or AH-ing to get my UVs. OOO made new proto and didn't let us get it, but that's one thing. This, this would be a slap in the face. I'm not saying I like spending over 100,000 cr and still only get low, but I'd rather new people have some glorious luxury we never got.
Firstly, I'd make the prices 50k, 150k, and 300k.
Secondly, I'd add some RNG to it. No RNG is honestly less fun. You know, think Terraria here. You can get random buffs (like the forge) or random debuffs. Add some of that.
Thirdly, give us a percent chance to get a +6 gem.
...And honestly, it'd be nice to add some more typical MMORPG features, like the items dropping rarely. Of course, we would also need to still get crafting variants, duh. If you know anything about the enormous UV market, it would implode without random variants. I'd love some MMORPG features (similar to how weapons/gear rarely drop in SK), but the UV system would likely be a very touchy subject. You know those rich (P2W sometimes) people who spent massive amounts of cr to get those ASI VH weapons? Well, how would they feel when you can now get ASI Ultra (Possibly Max)? Mad? Yeah. i won't even delve into how bad having ASI max weapons would be.

It's an interesting idea, but it could use some additions and revisions, and overall the community reception would probably be less than positive.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 14:25

#12

Tedme

@Mushy

That sounds a lot better than any other comment on this so far. Forget my ideas. lol

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 15:07

#13

Draycos

I'm going to ask you again.

How is RNG on any scale a fun mechanic?

Search

UV revamp suggestion [Gemstone upgrade]