Make the knight unlock missions via playing the arcade.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 01:54
The Problem
The missions are good content, but there is a fundamental issue with the way the game is played- players go through the missions and don't play the arcade. The missions are the main focus of the game, and leave the arcade and other features on the wayside. They stretch the already small player base thin and limit exploration greatly. If I am a new player, I see a ghost town when I get to Haven... parties, especially parties for certain levels in T2 and T3, are hard to come across.
I also feel that there is room to expand and greatly improve the game- easy room to expand. This is the great potential that I see in the mission system- geared towards making the player feel a sense of satisfaction when unlocking and completing missions, rather than a sense of completing some odd bucket list of things. This would also bridge the gap between the mission system and the arcade perfectly- requiring play in the arcade as well as in the missions.
The Concept
My fellow shawty Thunder posted a thread suggesting optional missions be found in the arcade-
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/94822
And I thought- "Man, I really just don't like the way the game is focused around the missions."
And then it hit me. The general structure of the missions is as follows:
-Intro to general mechanics of gameplay
-Intro to beasts/slimes
-Intro to construct/gremlins
-Intro to undead/fiends
-Flavorful missions (Like Arkus... not related to bosses, but still plot)
-Intro to Boss
-Boss
-Intro to Boss 2
-Boss 2
-Hall of heroes
Furthermore, each intro sequence is broken up into two parts: An explanation of whats going on with the monsters, and then two levels for each of the mobs.... So why not integrate this into the game, and instead start players into the arcade immediately... then offer tutorials as they go through it?
The Proposed Solution
To introduce a more natural feel to the game, scenario rooms should be tied to flavorful missions, and normal levels to introductory levels. Boss levels would be unlocked in sequence, slowly at first, then quickly leading up to the climactic encounter. Introductory levels, for crafting stations etcetera, should be introduced at the start of the game, but not required to go through.
To unlock the mission detailing what gremlins and construct are, one would simply encounter a gremlin or a construct themed level. To unlock the level that makes the knight face construct, the knight should encounter a construct. The knight could choose to learn about that construct/gremlin directly before fighting the level. Then after beating the level, the knight would be given ample opportunity to prepare for and beat the level given to the knight.
To unlock the flavorful missions, common scenario rooms should be encountered at least once after unlocking all of the bread and butter levels described below. The idea being that you the player finds something random and unique in the clockworks- like a recon module imprinted with Arkus's voice- and then the Spiral Order contacts you to investigate. This would give players the sense that they were the ones going through the game as if it were their own journey.
To unlock the introduction to a boss level, knights should have to beat all of the levels leading up to that sequence of level, as well as encounter a scenario room. Much like before, the knight has discovered the boss on her own. She goes through the levels, and finds a scenario hinting at the existence of the royal jelly palace. This would lead the knight towards discovering the royal jelly, or the roarmulus twins.
To get to the boss, no scenario room would be required, as the game would have been leading up to the boss as it were. Fighting the boss ahead of time and winning could potentially unlock the boss mission for you. (Or maybe not? It'd break from the story... small detail)
Other levels may or may not have prerequisites- battle sprites may require the knight to master basic gameplay elements before overwhelming them with additional features. Battle sprites could also be given to knights to help them through mastering basic gameplay elements. Either way would be fine, but they would have to be integrated. The hall of heroes would be unlocked after completing all missions prior to it, as is usual.
Changes to support this would be minimal, but would have to include things like hiding future missions, and allowing missions to be unlocked in differing blocks. Certain missions may also be unlocked via multiple scenario rooms- an abandoned camp with a loan statue of a trojan could also suffice unlock Arkus. Existing scenario rooms could also trigger certain missions to appear.
This change would allow additional missions to be inserted freely as well- and would make for a truly changing landscape if done properly.
"But it Would Make Progression RNG-Based!"
I would agree that this would not be a good thing, but my thought on the issue is that the scenario rooms required of the player wouldn't be that bad, and that if deemed necessary, there would be a number of ways in which the player could advance without meeting the prerequisites, should they get messed up by the RNG.
It could be timed based- if I don't find a scenario room in a certain amount of time, I'll receive one. Time could also be based on the number of levels completed- after 20 levels of not finding what I need, I would get that level guaranteed.
It could be that the last one or two missions fill in automatically. This would let me unlock 3-4/5 levels, and then get 1-2 of them for free. This would be my vote.
It could be that the player could unlock later missions first, and that only a percentage of levels would be needed to go on- like 3/5 for each block. My other vote. Easy to code, would work like a charm.
It could be that upon getting the correct gear for the hall of heroes ahead of time, the player would be allowed access to all missions they missed, as they currently do.
As for the player getting stuck via not being able to find a gremlin level (if they need gremlins), it is important to keep in mind status stratums, which make the odds of there existing one level themed around every enemy existing very high.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 19:04
#2
Edited
Edit: Apparently I can't post in Fehzor's threads without being called names. I retract my comments.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 09:22
#3
gods ain't gonna help you, son.
I don't think you read it right skeptic. you unlock missions via arcade, you don't make missions happen in the arcade.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 19:04
#4
Edited
Edit: Apparently I can't post in Fehzor's threads without being called names. I retract my comments.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 12:03
#5
@Thunder
Indeed. The scenario rooms needed would have to be made common or at least spread out among several scenario rooms... but keep in mind that most scenario rooms would be able to unlock something on your list of missions you need to encounter. If you find one workable scenario every 5-10 levels, that'd be about right.
@Septic
Actually, the reason I said that was because I got a friend to play the game and watched them go through the early levels. Every level, their party was marked "Open to all", and only one other person joined them, all the way to around the snarbolax. The one that joined them left midway through the level and it was kind of saddening.
When I was new, the game wasn't like that. There were people everywhere, and all I had to do was go down to the appropriate tier and I'd have three new friends waiting for me.
As for what you actually said, this is aimed at the arcade redux. They might, probably do, know what they want to do during arcade redux. But I think that this and suggestions like Thunder's could be considered and even incorporated, if the developers saw value in them.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 19:05
#6
@Fehzor
This is the last time I am going to ask you to stop the name calling. I've done so in another thread. Please stop. It is against the rules.
Edit: Apparently I can't post in Fehzor's threads without being called names. I retract my previous comments to "stop disrupting" this thread.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 18:31
#7
Wait seriously? You're going to launch a complaint/report me because I spelled your name incorrectly? Why can't we just have a nice thread where we don't all shove the rules into each other's faces? Am I really harassing you?
But if you really want to go there, the parts of the rules that would possibly apply to the "name calling" are-
"Be excellent to each other. Keep your posts respectful and polite. Disagreement is fine, but scratching, biting, and hair pulling is not allowed."
"Post personal attacks, or anything intended to insult or belittle another person (this includes both players AND staff members)."
I will personally state to you that my post was not intended to hurt you in any way. I do that with everyone's name for fun- if you'd like to spell my name incorrectly, feel free to. I gave you a very serious response, and did not mean to hurt your feelings by spelling your name that way. On the other hand, your post violates the following in a very direct manner:
"Report violations of forum rules via our Support Email form so that staff may attend to the violation as quickly as possible. When doing so, please supply a link to the post(s) you are reporting."
So please, stay on topic because it really really gets to me when everyone absolutely MUST check every single comment of the rules. It really "disrupts the forum's formatting, functionality, or usability", and makes it hard to just talk about the subject.
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 20:57
#8
Holy cow, one word and he blows his top o.O
I really don't understand how these people function in real life without falling to pieces :| I took more harassment than that in primary school
Sun, 12/29/2013 - 21:24
#9
+1
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 01:13
#10
Oh wow. I really didn't mean to like... kill your family with that comment :/
Are you ok? For real, if you need a friend or something I'd be glad to talk to you and maybe go on some runs or something. But after Jan. 12, when I return. I promise I'll call you Skeptic...
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 04:06
#11
Keep the thread on its rails
If you two need to talk and make up, there are much better places to do so. A thread on the suggestion forum should relate to the suggestion. I would recommend sending each other PMs in-game when you have access instead of making a big stink that really doesn't need to be public.
On the suggestion itself, there are good and not-so-good aspects to it. I love every suggestion to make the arcade more lively, but requiring players to rely on a random number generator is never good when progress is involved. If a player couldn't get into a tier appropriate construct level, they might be confused, and quit before getting anywhere. If players read the mission debriefs, they'll know why they are where they are. They can track their progress with a very concrete value.
A very strong point I completely agree on is making the players feel like they are the ones in charge of their experiences, but forcing them into the arcade doesn't feel right - they should "discover" the arcade and its treasures. Hopefully the arcade redux gives more life to the clockworks, but we shouldn't make it a rank requirement. If anything, the arcade should have small, short prestige scenario fights if we wanted to wander into other tabs. I would love to have a random fight against fiends in a wolver den for six red boxes and ten prestige.
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 10:15
#12
+1
I actually think this is a great idea. Sure there's gonna be confusion like with what Fangel said. Sure it's not a good idea to throw the player straight into the arcade, but those can easily be worked around. The only thing that should be introduced by the Spiral Order is the planet Cradle, the Arcade, the Strangers, and the Gremlins. That way players will havs a general idea of what they're getting into before embarking on their quest. The enemies will unlock introduction missions, after your first run you're introduced to the forge, and so on. Maybe when they have an event like the Dark Harvest, give the player a scenario like the beginning of the Apocrean mission before introducing the actual mission. Or maybe a new scenario room if OOO is implementing a new boss before they put out the update notes and mission. Even then there could be flaws but that all depends on the player and what they want to do.
Tue, 12/31/2013 - 01:50
#13
@Everyone
Thanks for your support and criticism, I really appreciate all of you. Especially Skepticraven, whom I almost typo'd, but took the time to double-check+fix.
@Fangel
Hmmm... it could be viable to make the game just give you the missions after a certain time has passed? My thought was that yeah sure there is the RNG, but that it'd be incredibly common to find and unlock the missions... if you're playing the game.
I'll update the OP.
Tue, 12/31/2013 - 02:42
#14
On your update
When you say time passes to unlock a new mission, do you mean playtime or server uptime? If it were to be time based, I'd recommend something more like "floors completed", and maybe you run into a recon knight at the elevator who says they found something interesting down below, and can zap the elevator or something for you so you can have a certain level below. (Only the knight with the rank requirement can talk to the recon ranger, otherwise they'd say "Hail, Knight! I have some valuable information for a member of your party! Please have <knight name here> speak to me.") The social tab proves that the number of floors cleared is already tracked on the servers, so that would already be partially coded into the game.
I feel that moving the player through the ranks too fast would be punishing (Only requiring a fraction of the missions to move forwards), as we already can get through the ranks quickly, even if we worked on a RNG. If the "levels completed to unlock missions" idea became a thing, on top of your previous suggestion of encountering floors to get intel and progress, then it would make fire crystals less needed to slow down progression, and we could get our old drop stratums back for rarities too!
This suggestion is becoming more appealing as it progresses.
Tue, 12/31/2013 - 03:00
#15
Ah, that is a good point. Having 3/5 missions required could potentially be terrible... as it would be one more thing to attempt to balance, and balancing anything is a tricky ordeal. 4/5 missions would be a more likely result- as that would be the intro mission+3 others, then the one that you would be missing.
By time I meant time in game- another metric that is kept track of. Of course, players could cheese the system easily that way, so it might not be the best either... but it'd take A LOT of time and you'd have to be idling for that time, or playing lockdown/blast network or what have you.
Tue, 12/31/2013 - 03:19
#16
Waiting forever might also lose player interest
Time-based unlocks could take a long time to combat idleness, but then it is hurting those who play the game. We want progression tied to the clockworks, not the coliseum or Haven.
And it would be interesting if the NPCs called you once there was a mission ready, similar to a party invite. I'd love to be in the clockworks and get a comlink call from Feron saying they've found something important and to call back as soon as possible. This could work on either a timer or a level-clear counter.
Wed, 01/01/2014 - 20:36
#17
This is becoming an RPG thread...
And I'm loving it. Why do I think that? Think of other RPGs, like MapleStory or Elsword. When you reach a certain level, you get a message from an important NPC telling you to do such and such. I feel like this thread is starting to turn into something like that. When you encounter beasts and slimes, a set of missions detailing piercing damage, like the Rank 4-2 mission set, would be introduced to you. Run through a Power Complex: Mechanized Mile/Gremlin Grounds (Shock-themed Construct/Gremlin level) in Stratum 3 or 4. You find blueprints for Project: R and Rank 6-1 and 6-2 missions are unlocked. This is basically a rundown of my interpretation of Fangel's post of progress=new missions
Thu, 01/02/2014 - 03:33
#18
Sounds more like what Fehzor was getting at
Fehzor's idea was certain encounters unlock various missions.
My idea on top of that, to not rely on a random number generator for progress, is have progression be unlocked by completing a certain amount of floors in the clockworks. If you play long enough, you will unlock the next mission. If you find the required level before, you'll unlock the next mission. Hope that clears my position up. :)
Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:29
#19
Oh okay.
Sorry for moving the thread back to the top.
Well I was thinking of a special way to unlock The Silent Legion. In a T3 Devilish Drudgery, near the end you can find gremlin, devilite, and knight corpses before the elevator. There's also some recon knights around them. When you talk to the one next to the Elevator, he's gonna tell you something about Arkus being here and to contact Feron for more info.
Thu, 01/09/2014 - 09:58
#20
@Sonosuke
You got it right, but its more along the lines of 90% of the levels being found via random encounters and 10% of the levels being handed to you when the game gets dull... and thanks for the bump to the top! It'd be awesome if Nick saw this one instead of something lame like my duel-wielding thread, which was more to point out what exactly I thought "duel wielding" meant to the players suggesting it.
The purpose of mixing the levels into the arcade is to make the missions fun, exciting and empowering, rather than monotonous and repetitive.
Thu, 01/09/2014 - 12:45
#21
+1
Would love to see more people in arcade.
Thu, 01/09/2014 - 17:39
#22
+1, but something else....
Why don't before hand, when the player first reaches haven, we have a mission to make the knights just go round and actually TALK to the npcs. They tell you pretty much what you need to know...
Fri, 01/10/2014 - 22:18
#23
+1
Almost forgot my vote for yes
Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:01
#24
@Tedme
My thought is that the player shouldn't be forced to listen to all that because lore is kind of boring when you're not yet invested enough.
Instead, the game would offer the current talking missions to knights, but not require them. When they get to haven, the game would tell them to either go through the talking missions, or to go play more. Then, when players get tired of playing the arcade and grinding a bit (but are actually invested in the game), they can go and listen to the NPCs.
Sun, 01/12/2014 - 08:10
#25
All genius will break loose.
And then the NPCs Will Give You MORE Missions! Genius! ... wait, wouldn't some of them tell you about stuff you already know, like Alchemy and shtick?
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 21:38
#26
Bump.
I still very much want to see this happen.
Sat, 02/01/2014 - 00:27
#27
o....o)
+1 but what happens if you encounter a mission which youve already done though?
also maybe the gates shouldnt display what levels are there rather only the themes?
also, people dont really do arcade and exploration mainly because they( and I) want crowns for gear. right now it's the main driving incentive for newbies and also why people grind the citadel. id like to do some exploration but what would i get from doing this knowing Vana has more fortune to offer than a treasure vault?
Sat, 02/01/2014 - 19:43
#28
Well that's what this is trying to do, it at least helps to make the arcade a little more relevant to SK. Ever since missions, the arcade has gradually lost it's relevancy, which is truly sad because the arcade is a lot more fun then Vana. How you people have the ability to do Full vana runs more than twice a day without getting bored is beyond me, but it's lead to the arcade becoming pointless to most people.
Sat, 02/01/2014 - 22:45
#29
All shell will break loose.
I've just noticed, whenever one of my friends go to grind, they go to Vanaduck Castle. Whenever one of my guildmates (or friends in my guild) go grinding, they go in the Arcade. Tbh, I find the Arcade to be better than going straight to the boss level in missions because in the Arcade, the boss stratum is the second stratum of a tier, thus you can get prepared for the boss level. In missions however, you get thrown right into the boss levels, without any extra prep aside from the random stuff you can get from Basil in the lobby. They need to put more emphasis on the Arcade.
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 15:19
#30
@Akuryo
If you encounter a mission that you've already unlocked it won't unlock again.
This cannot solve the issue where people want to grind ad infinitum, but it can direct people towards thinking of the arcade as the number one place to go for runs. In fact, nothing can solve the grinding issue-- people will always play for that reason, and there is no point stopping them or trying to control them.
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 16:20
#31
^....^)
alright. it'd be favorable to see some repeatable side quests if ever. you know, like minor missions
Mon, 02/03/2014 - 21:39
#32
You'd still be able to repeat missions with this. All it would do is tie missions to the arcade after a the tutorial finished.
Mon, 02/03/2014 - 23:25
#33
I still like this suggestion
Minor missions can be bound to prestige missions.
Speaking of which, under this new system (pardon if it was already mentioned) would we unlock prestige missions via the arcade? Find some sort of intelligence that tells of a certain gremlin schematics, or a downed/shaking knight who tells us their team was captured and they barely got away?
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 03:33
#34
o....o)
im assuming that that's implied to be bound with the system
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 06:37
#35
Heart of Valor.
+1
I miss the days where arcades had plenty of people. Missions are basically barren. I don't imagine doing every mission by yourself would be fun...
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 10:30
#36
I am pretty sure I wrote this before somewhere, but...
...after finishing my own missions I did realize that I was spending almost no time in the arcade while this should be the core of the game, shouldn't it?
That time I got an idea similar to the OP:
The initial quest remains the same, but instead of teleporting to the corresponding level directly, you need to get to the required level in the arcade.
Example: You got the quest to investigate the Jelly Palace. Now you ned to start an arcade run, enter the Jelly Palace and finish it.
As guideline you could get told where your required level is; something like: head to the 20th depth of Golden King's Gate.
On this way, a mission could not be direcly repeated unless you head down the arcade from the last town. Expansion and danger missions would stay the way they currently are right now.
I am aware that the point 'find the unlock key in the arcarde' would be nullified with my idea, but this is where I got another idea:
What if you would get a set of levels that are locked and completely irrelevant to rank progress? This set of levels can only be unlocked to randome encounters in the arcarde and will add something different, also 'collectible' into the game (I love irrelevant collectibles in games :) ).
This would encourage exploring the arcade and if you really run into a new structur in a Wolver Den, you will be rewarded with a new level.
Thinking about it... to avoid exploiting, only those players should get an unlock who entered the level via transporter. If someone joins a party later he/she shouldn't get the unlock in this depth.
Once unlocked, this new mission/level/depth/whatever should be repeatable with the common rules for levels; if it is a whole mission, it could be free to join in the lobby but blocked once the team drove down.
Post your thoughts ;)
Edit:
Ah almost forgot about this thing in the OP:
As I did understood it, a player gets comlinked by Spiral HQ after entering a need (e.g. Gremlin) level.
It is a nice idea, but in reality this would end up in player-kicks because the party wants to proceed, but one new player is staying motionless because he/she reads the text of the comlink. Right now I can not think of a solution to avoid this issue.
Another question:
What do you mean by 'scenario rooms'? Do you mean something like the Danger Rooms in the gear-picture-levels? Or these randome gimmecs like a well that drops coins if you throw a bottle inside?
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 12:34
#37
Scenario rooms are a feature where by you'll find a bit of the story hanging out in the arcade.
For instance, you can find the meteor that brought the lichens down from space in one of them. Finding this scenario room could possibly unlock a mission, though currently finding these scenario rooms does nothing but look cool. They are only in the arcade and not in missions.
As for prestige missions...
I could see it going either way. The player could unlock the missions by doing a certain thing, and then would only be able to play them on the day that the prestige mission existed.
Another possibility would be to plant the prestige missions directly into the arcade. Where an NPC at basil levels would allow you to take a second elevator that would start the appropriate prestige mission. The danger missions could be found in a similar way, but perhaps on more specialized levels? There is also the possibility that going on the prestige mission could simply inform you of where to find said prestige mission in the arcade.
Or, prestige missions could stay as they are.. it wouldn't hurt the system so much having them in as rotating missions, and it would be work to code it.
As for "extra unlocks"
I wouldn't mind seeing the expansion or arcade tab turned into this. That said, I'd rather the missions that you found in the arcade be less content based, as that would further separate the community. Perhaps things like "Give 1000 of each mineral and get a shadow key, replayable", or the likes of that.
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 12:52
#38
gods ain't gonna help you, son.
this would end up in player-kicks because the party wants to proceed, but one new player is staying motionless because he/she reads the text of the comlink.
/laughs
nobody does it. I mean, I do it, and I'm strange.
your idea is good, but missions like arkus, or the arena-at-end missions, need specific levels, which do not fit into the arcade.
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 16:45
#39
The intro to monster family X only takes like half a minute to read, and it would only happen once per player.. plus they could read it later if they wanted. I don't know that many people would get kicked for it.
And Arkus/Arena At End missions are special/intro to monster levels, so they would be unlocked by scenario room/encountering monsters in the appropriate tier respectively.
Wed, 02/05/2014 - 06:36
#40
gods ain't gonna help you, son.
that was for jeno, fehz.
Wed, 02/05/2014 - 09:05
#41
throwing in thoughts
@Thunder
If you want to add something, you should think about it and try to prevent issues that could happen out of this change.
Even if some players skip this text and some wont, it is still a possible issue that can happen. It could be avoided, if said player would get teleported to buttons similar if he is dead.
However: if it only happens at scenario rooms (now knowing what these are http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Scenario_Rooms ) there is usually enough progress to make to the next button so the waiting time is not that long.
@Fehzor
These unlockables are meant to be non-story-related but collectible extra stuff. However, it could be still repeated.
Prestige missions should not require further things to complete these. Exspecially danger Missions are meant to be a challange themselve - no need to add another challange in even accessing to these for each day again.
If it is only a one-time-unlock it would be okay. (To prove you are worthy or experience; whatever)
Wed, 02/05/2014 - 13:05
#42
@Jenovasforumchar
Yeah, I thought of that, but the other line of logic is that these things pull players into doing them before all else and it might be better to put them as a daily unlock. If players had to find them daily, then it would mandate they explore the arcade as knights are ought to do.
Wed, 02/05/2014 - 13:58
#43
A mission based on pickups like vials and pills and barriers would be nice.
Wed, 02/05/2014 - 17:28
#44
U7654
I think you're thinking of the Advanced Training Hall. Sadly, it lacks updated clockworks drops like barriers.
Wed, 02/05/2014 - 20:12
#45
All shell will break loose.
Yeah, they need to update the training hall. It's so old and underused now.
Mon, 04/21/2014 - 19:16
#46
Eh, the training hall does its purpose just fine... though really isn't even so necessary, as the early game is fairly lenient and easy to understand.
EDIT+Bump
@U76
Actually, a new level for pickups would be pretty sweet-- they're tutorialized a bit, but they aren't really that useful and many players ignore them. If the game could perhaps show us how to use them, that would be nice. Not show as in "Look, you throw it and BAM! They're on fire! Looky there" but show us as in have a respawning fire vial next to a cage of ice cubes.
I like everything but the fact that you use scenario room to unlock something. I run the arcade a bit and I don't encounter them that often. if scenario rooms become more common, then I'll be all for it.