Spiral Knights - changes to the droppable buffs.

changes to the droppable buffs.

48 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/03/2014 - 16:05

Thunder-The-Bright

I got this idea when going in RJP. I got a speed buff, and in a flash I was on the party button on the next room before my teammate could go unlocking a gold door. I remembered when Nick said that MSI was powerful cause players in a party should go at the same speed and stick toghether. wandering what happened, I got a possible solution.
1 make buffs rarer, and shorten their duration.
2 make buffs stackable with each other. for example, if buffs would give me a 10 sec buff, and I already had one, they would add 10 secs to the duration of the buff.
3 make buffs affect all members in the party, so that they are advantaged by what their teammates found too. it would also promote teamwork, and make parties more unite.

it's not a party if I take an attack buff and kill everything on my own. it's not a party if I go GM speed and leave everyone behind. it's not a party if... well, you get what I am saying.

Fri, 01/03/2014 - 16:36

Mushy-Bucket

---

You ought to add a part about making Battle Sprite Def Orbs still stack-able and separate from the mob dropped ones. The update really screwed us kitty users over.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 03:30

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

I don't think OOO has plans on making that possible. but if the rate of dropping of IHA doesn't get nerfed and these changes are implemented, seraph's users will be glad they have more power.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 03:33

Masterreeve

I make you black, bluue and red all over

@ Mushy-Bucket
And the speed orbs didn't @#$% Drake over on his Backfire Barrier?

@ OP
it all seems good, but i'd not like the party buffs. Then we'd have an entire party full of steroid taking knights that kill things in 3 hits each. Keep them solo buffs only. Or better yet, remove them entirely.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 04:23

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

that's why I said to shorten the duration and reduce the droprate. they should be rare buffs that speed up your run, not something that you use extensivly to kill monsters/ dodge/ go GM speed. and to speed up your run, there's nothing better than share all the buffs.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 08:06

Sandwich-Potato

And the attack bonus didn't fudge Maskeraith over on his Deadly Shadow Cloak?

If nothing else, I think the MSI is the most important buff to nerf a bit. I mean really, in tier 3 people just kill everything with CTR and ASI Max Blitzes before they get scratched.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 08:41

Blitzsonic

OOO used the same buffs from

OOO used the same buffs from the pet without remembering that they would stack. It makes sense that they won't stack but the pet ones should, so use different ones for the pets. Adding the buff to every player on the party would be a good idea and would make it more coop. Also, if we are talking about this "one picks it up, everyone gets it/shared loot" thing, can't we have the same orb/spark drops ? So if one player gets a spark from that box, everyone will get one from that box. They are bound to the player so alt farming wouldn't work.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 09:10

Sandwich-Potato

No Blitz. Just no.

They are bound to the player so alt farming wouldn't work.

/e coughs.

1 main and 3 alts get 3 simple orbs each. Make 4 2* stuff for ragecrafting again.

If those buffs were party shared, Drakon would get even more screwed over. First his barrier, now his BACKFIRE barrier, and now you want to fudge his Frenzied Firestorm?

Plus, it would make the entire party completely overpowered.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 09:23

Mushy-Bucket

---

@Masterreeve
They still need to add something to screw maskeraith users over. Like, really bad.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 09:37

Sandwich-Potato

Mushy, they did. The attack buff of Deadly Shadow Cloak got screwed over, IIRC.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 10:16

#10

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

sandwitch, frenzied firestorm's buff and the droppable buffs stack. and while everyone was complaining about seraph's iron heart attack, nobody noticed that frenzied firestorm's buff doesn't stack with itself anymore. it's one of the reasons why I don't think OOO has plans on making distict buffs based on the source.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 10:56

#11

Blitzsonic

@sandwich

not like the old energy system allowed ragecrafting them...
You would also need to carry them the entire time and watch that they don't get disconnected because the current orb droprate is rare enough. Maybe IP check could fix this issue. Only the dropped buffs from enemies would be party shared, not the sprite ones. What were you thinking ?

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 11:17

#12

Sandwich-Potato

Did you pay attention to the bottom of my post?

Plus, it would make the entire party completely overpowered.

And that would be a clone of Drakon's Frenzied Firestorm, like Defense Orbs for Sera, attack buff for Maskeraith, and barriers for Drakon again.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 13:52

#13

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

sandiwitch, maybe I wasn't clear enough: drakon frenzied gives a maximum of 4 seconds buff. it gives it again and again, but still 4. it's already outclassed, and a lot.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 15:03

#14

Sandwich-Potato

It's only 4? Huh. Ah well, it'll keep renewing in the Citadel I suppose. Unless this means I should get Explosive instead?

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 15:26

#15

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

before it was stackable 4, and so it went to 12-16 easy peasy. now it's stuck to 4. explosive is the viable choice now. we're getting rid of the rule "ugly is powerful".

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 15:34

#16

Sandwich-Potato

But but but Maskeraith is ugly.

So, anyhow, I don't think the full party buff should be applied to the buffs an individual finds: too OP, with everyone getting 30 second boosts and stuff. The other day I was doing 998 damage with a Combuster against some Slags; imagine if a full party had the buffs.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 05:07

#17

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

first point of my suggestion is:

1 make buffs rarer, and shorten their duration.

next argument, and take a good one.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 09:32

#18

Blitzsonic

@Sandwich

So you want to have the buffs only for you ? The idea of the complete party getting one would be that if it drops it would drop for all players(maybe reduce the droprate of it to balance that). Sprite buffs should stack, like they did before(OOO probably thought that the orbs were different but whatever). Also, about the current orb/spark/crystal drop: Some people get super lucky and find enough and some get almost no sparks or orbs. Now if it drops for someone everyone gets one.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 09:36

#19

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

blitz, no. going into that system would encourage making parties because you have a direct benefit. it's the wrong way. you should go in a party to be in a party, so that life is easier for everybody, not only for you. I said that buffs would affect everyone in the party, which means that if one member picks the buff, everyone is instantly buffed; but all loot is still instanced.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 10:14

#20

Blitzsonic

@Thunder

You and sandwhich might understand the idea a bit wrong. My idea is that the orb/spark/crystal/buff drop is the same for everyone. So if someone kills one enemy and that one drops a defense buff then it would be on screen for everyone. They would need to pick it up to have it. This way the drops won't be completely based on your luck and we will have less"bad luck makes orb drops bad" topics or posts.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 10:19

#21

Dibsville

"You and sandwhich might

"You and sandwhich might understand the idea a bit wrong. My idea is that the orb/spark/crystal/buff drop is the same for everyone. So if someone kills one enemy and that one drops a defense buff then it would be on screen for everyone."

So, you're basically asking for another Orb and Spark nerf? Because with this system, they'd be excruciatingly common, and the best way to balance that is to nerf them once again.

Why don't we just go back to the old way of looting while we're at it.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 10:22

#22

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

make your own topic for that maybe? since we were talking about buffs?
besides, all four party members can have bad luck. and right now I think that OOO wants us to buy orbs and sparks, not to find enough of them in the clockworks. as for the crystals, price is too high and radiant are unfindable, but that's another story.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 10:30

#23

Sandwich-Potato

Yep, back on topic.

Thunder, I just have one question; if a buff drops on one player's screen, will it also drop on everyone else's, like their own copy of it, similar to their own copy of crowns and heat? I hope not.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 10:36

#24

Blitzsonic

@Dibsville

How would they be more common with that ? Only the drops would be the same for each player so you give up your orb drop chance and use the one from an other member(who breaks the box). Old loot system wouldn't be possible since alt farming(alts would get the loot without needing to pick it up. The random material get would probably annoy players too(if someone picked up the material, a random person got it).

@Thunder
Well, if it would be the other way then people would say that OOO would need the money, even if the original game didn't need it.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 10:43

#25

Sandwich-Potato

I think what Dibs is saying is that you're finding way too many Sparks and Orbs in the Clockworks. Look at me, I had 20 Eternals before becoming a Vanguard. That like what, 6 free crafts? 4800 Energy's worth of crafting? One orb is around 267 energy. Don't even get me started on how many Sparks you get as mission rewards, and then another pile from the Arcade.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 11:02

#26

Dibsville

How would they be more common

How would they be more common with that ?

Could you be more descriptive, then? Because from what I got, I could make this scenario:

Party of four people in FSC. One of them is dead.
They finally kill the last Trojan, and are going to the Treasure Blocks.
The fourth person won't see the treasure, obviously.
An Orb comes out of the box.
The three people who can see the drop each pick up their free Orb.
Everyone (excluding the dead person) now got an Orb, instead of only 1 person getting it.

With the current drop rates, we could look at any danger mission and say we could easily get 2-5 orbs in the last room.*
Conclusion to this system: the drop rates need to be nerfed.

Unless you're saying it like the old item system, where the first to grab it gets it (save for mats).

*Notice I said "could", not "will".

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 11:05

#27

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

if a buff drops on one player's screen, will it also drop on everyone else's, like their own copy of it, similar to their own copy of crowns and heat?

no. as I pointed out in my previous post, a buff drops for one player and that buff applies to all party members.

dibs, your reasonment is right, but the drops are way fewer that you would expect. at least, in my experience. I had found 4 orbs and 5 sparks in one hour, but the next one I've found nothing. I don't know what RNG OOO is using, but it shouldn't be like that. *instert statistic rant here*

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 11:16

#28

Blitzsonic

@Dibsville

I see the point that there would be more orbs dropped than before. However you can't trade them to the other players and they are shared so one player wouldn't get more orbs. The old system wouldn't work on this since everyone would like to have them.

@Sandwich
Well, YOU might get a lot of sparks and orbs from arcade but not everyone will. I'm only like getting 1 spark per week and very rarely a orb. It can be way different from player to player on that.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 11:21

#29

Dibsville

but the drops are way fewer

but the drops are way fewer that you would expect.

While it is true I am probably overestimating it, going back to the danger mission example, usually at least one person gets an Orb drop. Well, good for them. Now imagine that the other people also get that drop.

Now take into account that normally 2 or 3 people will get at least 1 Orb, which is still quite common. These would also be shared.

And yeah, you could say that isn't how it's going to work, and there wouldn't be a ton of orbs. Well, why wouldn't there be? Because?... Wait for it...

They'd nerf the drop rates.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 11:46

#30

Sandwich-Potato

I'm only like getting 1 spark per week

Oh look you ONLY get 20 Energy's worth of stuff a week for free. Oh dear, ONLY that much? I get a Spark every two weeks usually and I still think they're too common.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 11:54

#31

Dibsville

I'm seriously about to just

+1 to nerfing the drop rate and time they last...

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:04

#32

Sandwich-Potato

Well, Thunder, what do you think the ideal time lasted for the party buff would be? Would you want MSI to be significantly less than the others, or what?

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:07

#33

Dibsville

Can I just say that IMO the MSI buff should be removed? Or is that pushing it...

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:21

#34

Blitzsonic

@Sandwich

Oh look I had 100 ce per day which would've allowed me to ragecraft things or revive. I remember that dibsville said that he would get 3-5 sparks per arcade run. I've seen a lot of players that run out of sparks. If orbs get the chance of dropping like a weapon does then it's way overdone. The current drops don't seem to work for some players(OOO's RNG is probably broken and should be recoded)

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:37

#35

Dibsville

"I remember that dibsville

"I remember that dibsville said that he would get 3-5 sparks per arcade run."

Arcade Run = Depths 0-29. I only get about 1 Spark every two or three Tier 3 runs.

I've seen a lot of players that run out of sparks

Because they immediately spark and revive without thinking about things like "why did I die?", or "how can I try to avoid that so I don't have to use a spark again?" So they die to the same thing like five times in a row.

Want to see a perfect example of this?

Start a Public Sovereign Slime party on Elite. If someone joins who is a Defender or higher, kick them. Go through the mission as normal with 3 other people. It might take a few times, because some people didn't rush their way through and actually learned the basics of the game. But you'll eventually come across someone who immediately sparks as soon as they die. Now watch as they use 15+ Sparks throughout the run.

When/if that person becomes a Vanguard, they're most likely going to be one of those people who complains about how Sparks are too rare.

Obviously this would be kind of mean, but it's just an example.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:42

#36

Sandwich-Potato

Oh look back then you could only play 10 depths a day if you didn't grind the most lucrative ones. Oh look back then revs were more expensive. Oh look back then there were no orbs.

Back on topic; I propose the MSI buff to be nerfed severely to like 10 seconds.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:46

#37

Blitzsonic

@Dibsville

No because they are forced to do missions. You say it's free ? Nope, no higher rewards from missions,no acess to all missions. The players that I know are good spiral knights players that don't instaspark or wait if they see that it is impossible to help now. I went low on sparks because of apocrea and had to use my last one on the gauntlet(had like 5 left, had to use one in each fiend level and one or two in the gauntlet but it wasn't in a row, it was one in the second and one in the third arena.). Now I'm stuck at 9 sparks and can't really go up again because I'm doing vana from time to time and I'm using at least 1 spark there. Getting 300 + sparks is a thing now and a reason why noone wants to spend their sparks.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 12:57

#38

Dibsville

Apocrea knocked me down to 47 Sparks.

I used over 60 Sparks in Grinchlin Assault.

My current Spark count

I propose the MSI buff to be nerfed severely to like 10 seconds.

+1 to that

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 13:02

#39

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

dibs, is your avatar permabugged or something?

as for the duration, I say around 10 sec each. remember that even if it's a third of the duration, in a full party you can get more than that in the current droprate. actually, I won't feel sure about the droprate till I know some numbers.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 13:04

#40

Blitzsonic

@Sandwich

Oh, Look back then when you could play AS MUCH AS YOU WANTED. Back then when armor only costed 600 and you moved like you had MSI max. Let's not forget the big "no grinding" thing and better balanced/fixed gear.

@Dibsville

So you did 100 arcade runs without failing ? sounds possible for me but waiting 2-3 hours for level to change to anything but compound isn't a option.
Did you have 200 + sparks at the beginning of the update(mission rewards+higher droprates) ?

An other side thing:
It makes sense that elite gives more loot and higher chance but if OOO continues to nerf the droprates then It's going to be the only valid option to get orbs and sparks, which probably isn't the point of it.

offtopic:
What happened to your sprite and character icon at the top left ?

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 13:05

#41

Dibsville

dibs, is your avatar permabugged or something?

It's always bugged out like that for me.
If I could show you my screenshot folder, 99% of it has bugged out portraits (this goes for other people as well, and even extends into Lockdown).

I'll get back to you on how many screenshots are in it.

EDIT: 295.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 15:44

#42

Sandwich-Potato

From this, I conclude that you have no idea how Mist Energy worked. Let's shred this, shall we?

you could play AS MUCH AS YOU WANTED

Yes, if you spent the whole day playing FSC and LD.

Back then when armor only costed 600

600 what? Potatoes?

you moved like you had MSI max

There is no MSI max. And only GM's moved quickly. No dashing even, except for Striker Boosts in LD.

Let's not forget the big "no grinding" thing and better balanced/fixed gear.

Let's not forget that the average Knight Elite earned 100 Energy a day and making a single piece of 4* equipment costed 400 Energy AND recipe costs.

Balanced gear? BALANCED GEAR?

-GF and DA were still drastically cloned. Still the same today, except now it's Acheron.
-Blitz.
-Brandishes.
-Chaos.
-Shard Bombs.
-Non-Skolver Piercing armor.
-Heck, non-Snarby Shadow armor.
-Elemental barely scrapes by today with a small community; most are Chaos and Vog clones.

Next.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 16:12

#43

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

sandwitch, you probably don't know what beta was. I have an idea of that.

you could play as much as you want because it was beta. it was testing. then you have to limit gameplay somewhere or your players will dash through content in a week.

ragecraft was an issue with the lower energy prices for alchemy (check the wiki sandwitch). more than the one we have now.

move like MSI max? where did you get that?

let's not forget what I said in the second sentence.

balanced gear? oh really?
everyone using GF in superbrawl?
DA's bullets going through walls?
blitz that was balanced till the gunner/bomber buff?

before we continue, can we stay on topic and not rant endlessly about the good old times that had their flaws to but that we use to rant about the now?

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 16:20

#44

Sandwich-Potato

I was referring to the era of the Mist Energy, not beta. Whoops.

And I know the ragecraft thing in Mist Energy too. I'm just showing that it might be a problem again if everyone gets an orb. Though not nearly as much.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 17:23

#45

Dibsville

---OPINIONS DON'T JUDGE ME---

It makes sense that elite gives more loot and higher chance but if OOO continues to nerf the droprates then It's going to be the only valid option to get orbs and sparks, which probably isn't the point of it.

Advanced drops plenty.

In fact, Advanced was how the game used to be.

IN FACT, Advanced is just rare enough that it's almost like old SK, we can use it for the Crowns and then use those to buy the Orbs. Except now we don't lose our energy while doing it and we still get the free orb every so often.

Advanced is perfect, Elite still makes things a tad bit too common.

Sun, 01/05/2014 - 17:40

#46

Sandwich-Potato

But this has barely something to do with the OP, so let's get back on it:

+1.

Mon, 01/06/2014 - 12:00

#47

Blitzsonic

@Thunder

I was saying most of it because sandwich was comparing it to the old ME sk and saying that it would be too op to allow some of the stuff what I've been suggesting. Also, in the old trailer(which I'm not going to link because OOO will remove it) it looked like you would move at the speed of a striker or at least way faster. GF and DA are somewhat a different story, but back then OOO cared about bombs and didn't only remove stuff for no reason

@Dibsville
I remember 2 friends who returned to sk because the mist energy war was over. They got on on the game until they got stuck at hall of heroes. They never got orb drops this far so we had to tell them about the Elite drops and stuff. After that they started playing that, probably got owned by the higher health and damage from enemies a bit at first but now both are good players. The option of difficulty wasn't probably only added for farming. I'm sure that some people would like higher difficulty, but is higher loot really needed for that ? Again too much offtopic that should be in an other post.

Adding more team based things to the game would be way better, but again this needs some thoughts.

About the orbs. I see both things, a reason why there would be too many but also a reason why it would be balanced but I can't fully explain it now because it needs a lot of thinking and I don't have too much time for it.(here is a part of it that isn't finished: If the other player opens the box, then it's opened by him and his luck is used on that. Luck/random drops is a set value and not a value that will go up if you don't find any and down when you don't find any. This would mean that very bad luck would NEVER drop a orb while Perfect luck would drop a orb from every box... not finished and I probably will think about this later when I have time.)

Back on the buffs:
It makes sense for weapon buffs to last long since you might have killed the last enemy of the wave and you are continuing the way to the next one(for example jelly room right to jelly room left). MSI is something that OOO wanted to keep rare. As long as it doesn't let you walk on max speed it's ok for me(and no I'm not only saying that it needs to be ok for me). I can understand that players want a nerf for the time of it but I'm also thinking about the gear. Because low gives almost no difference, medium is noticeable, and very high is the nice thing. Now for very high you would need sprite buffs, so maybe something could be changed on the sets, but that's a different story again.

Mon, 01/06/2014 - 13:30

#48

Sandwich-Potato

It makes sense for weapon buffs to last long since you might have killed the last enemy of the wave and you are continuing the way to the next one(for example jelly room right to jelly room left).

Just...no. Look how fast people kill monsters already. Do you really think they need to kill them faster?

And I'm pretty sure the reason Mercurial gives MSI is to counter the slowed speed when you charge bombs. Here's my suggestion for the buffs:

Lower the chances of attack and defense buffs to single digit/low double digit percent, and lower MSI to low single digit. Buffs CAN be stackable, and their duration is cut to 10-15 seconds, randomly rolled, as a consequence. This would allow Drakon's Flame Barrier to still be useful, as it would always be accessible and more common than the orbs usually. If that doesn't work, Defense Orbs would also stack with the Seraphynx's Iron Heart Attack as well as Drakon's Barrier. Same goes for Attack and MSI for Deadly Shadow Cloak/Frenzied Firestorm, though the Firestorm can give at most a 4 second supplementary buff. A buff now applies to the entire team, and when it drops, it is shown for all the players, similar to crowns during most of the Mist Era; this would allow a party to get a buff if some players were too far away to reach it.

MSI speed would be cut down to 60% of what it is currently, defense remains the same, while attack is cut down to 70% of its current boost.

I'm not sure how to fit that in with Backfire Barrier; it has a brief but extreme boost, and allowing MSI to stack that is completely out of the question.

Search

changes to the droppable buffs.