Spiral Knights - The truth about the "Damage buff" on the Acheron.

The truth about the "Damage buff" on the Acheron.

26 replies [Last post]

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 11:41

Fallconn

There might already be a thread somewhere about this, but I'm posting this anyway.

Before update Acheron, took 3 hits to kill skolvers/vogs/snarbolaxes (2 if they don't have pentas).

After update Acheron takes 3 hits to kill skolvers/vogs/snarbolaxes (2 if they don't have pentas).

Glacius/Voltedge/Combuster takes 3 hits to kill skolvers/vogs/snarbolaxes (2 if they don't have pentas).

Gran faust/Divine avenger takes 3 hits to kill skolvers/vogs/snarbolaxes (2 if they don't have pentas).

So, as you can see. The only difference the Acheron gives is damage numbers, and even after the "damage buff, it still takes the same amount hits to kill someone with the Acheron, So, you can shut yer trap about Acheron being so OP now.

:Fun Fact: Normal low uv is enough to survive 3 hits from a glacius/voltedge/combuster!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:06

Krakob

Sure, but you're not taking UVs, other weapons, trinkets of lower star level, or class into account.
That's a lot of things that vary between players.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:12

Feyi-Feyi

Are you sure about those numbers?
From what I remember Snarb can take 3 GF/Acheron hits?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:50

Theirillusion

Because one cannot use more weapons than one to kill someone all of a sudden.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 12:52

Krakob

Again, we're not even considering UVs, trinkets, class, or damage bonus. Be more specific.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 14:29

Fallconn

What I'm saying is that the difference between the Acheron and glacius/combuster/voltedge are very VERY small hit-wise in all cases.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 14:39

Son-Of-Hades

i'm pretty sure

i'm pretty sure glacius/combuster/voltedge takes 4 hits to kill vogs/skolvers/snarbolaxes. Also, a normal low UV is not enough to change that to 5.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 15:45

Finale-Flare

I wonfer if Hades's max

I wonfer if Hades's max shadow UV really help....according to Zeddy's thread, it does as much as a piercing low.

Anyways, Acheron 3rd swing is killer

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 15:57

Retequizzle

if you're using one weapon to secure all of your kills, you're either incredibly lucky or dying a lot in turn

to be fair though, if you find yourself dying to one particular weapon type, start trying to find ways to play against it instead of complaining that it's 3pro5u

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 16:31

Fallconn

normal low UV is not enough

normal low UV is not enough to change that to one more hit

Try it yourself then, Pretty sure normal low on skolver/vog/snarb is enough to survive 3 hits, might be normal med, but my memory is a bit rusty on that topic.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:31

#10

Large-Noodles

normal med on 1 piece of skolver = 4 hits from brandish
now with acheron, I'm pretty sure it's normal high on both pieces (or max+high) to take 4

also, WAT OTHER WEAPONS EXIST AND YOU CAN USE THEM IN COMBINATION!?!?!!
NO WAY!!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:19

#11

Seiran

I'm pretty sure that if defense makes a difference, it'll make a difference with higher HP. The question is just 'how many hits?' when it comes to PVP.

I get the same issues when deciding between a VH and max damage loadout (or status vs non-status) in PVE: Solo, it doesn't really make a difference, but with 4 people, if I'm dealing with monsters alone, the 'missing' damage piles up to 1-3 more extra attacks.

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 01:20

#12

Dutch-Oven

damage chart

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 10:00

#13

Seiran

Looked good, til I saw Neutralizer kill numbers in lockdown.

/trollface

that 0damage

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 12:10

#14

Deala

The good thing is that Acheron was only buffed for PvP..right?
Doesn't matter that it does more damage to wolvers than a BTB/FF does while having a better charge.

Also, my main use with acheron is to either get loads of damage (easy 20-35K w/o trying), or to use it in conjuction with other weps (1 FF swing + 2 acheron swing = dead unless UVS.)

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 13:33

#15

Seiran

damage balance

Honestly, Acheron's damage buff was to balance it with the other brandishes: Just as the Nova/Umbra driver have no status but deal more damage in tradeoff, Acheron's damage was pushed up to be more than the Obsidian/Status brandishes.

The real fix here would be to push down the entire Brandish line's damage with Acheron vs Gran Faust as a baseline for relative balance (so 3 hit swords kill single enemies faster and 2 hit swords kill multiple enemies faster for their slower speed).

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 14:22

#16

Krakob

@Seiran

For a simple fix that'd be solely for Acheron, it would be as simple as to reduce the damage to be on the same level as the other Brandishes. They don't have statuses on their combos so it makes perfect sense if they were to have the same damage as Acheron.

Wed, 03/05/2014 - 09:28

#17

Seiran

Actually, the brandish lines

Actually, the brandish lines are a bit too powerful as-is. It's more of an arsenal discussion than a coliseum one, but all things considered, brandishes outclass heavy swords in both single enemy and multiple enemy DPS/mobility.

Though, if you want to go with the 'only-the-part-that-deals-status' kind of balance, then sure, keep Acheron's normal hits as strong as the other brandishes and keep its charge damage higher then.

But then it'd still be more powerful than Gran Faust vs multiple enemies with its charge :\

[edit, to avoid a bump]:
For a simple fix that'd be solely for Acheron,
^ I misread this into thinking that you meant my previous suggestion was to fix Acheron, not that your suggestion was an Acheron-only fix.

Wed, 03/05/2014 - 09:19

#18

Krakob

Of course, I'd be one to know that if anyone but as I said, my idea is just a short sighted fix that would only affect Acheron. Pretty much all swords need to be rebalanced.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 12:23

#19

Tiraid

This might be completly unrelated but...

Acheron is as powerful as GF. GF does a status condition. BUT, with GF's status comes a price, a chance for curse on charge. So acheron is for people who want to NOT be cursed and be able to use the charge attack. GF is for evreyone else.
bad spellers of the world, UNTIE!

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 12:30

#20

Krakob

@Tiraid

That's an awful comparison. GF and Acheron are different in pretty much every way.
For starters, there's the hitbox. Acheron shares the smallest sword hitbox with many a sword. GF, on the other hand, uses the biggest hitbox.
GF will have an easier time handing out the devastating finisher as the combo is one hit shorter and a lot of the time it takes to execute said combo involves post hit animation while Acheron is more even in terms of animation time.
There's of course the speed, also. Acheron is a mid-high speed sword and Gran Faust is a slow sword. The former will rely more on execution and reaction while the latter will rely more on prediction.

GF's charge is unusable, Acheron's charge is powerful but outclassed by Voltedge and Glacius.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 13:02

#21

Ardent-Light

Excuse me?

A fast sword shouldn't be as strong as a slow sword. It just makes sense. Do you know how many people play without trinks? Do you know how EASY it is to hit someone with 2 Acheron swings? Acheron needs a nerf. There isn't anything else left to say about it.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 18:35

#22

Fallconn

@Ardent-Light: Do you know that glacius/combuster/voltedge do the same thing? it's amazing how you completely ignored the entire thread =0

Mon, 03/10/2014 - 14:10

#23

Krakob

@Uncle Si

That doesn't excuse Acheron's extreme power. A skilled player will not often use only one weapon and as soon as you throw in a toothpick or a Valiance or something, numbers will change. The arguments presented in the OP are indeed correct but they're silly and don't quite apply in practice.

Tue, 03/11/2014 - 17:36

#24

Fallconn

What I'm trying to say in this thread is that the acheron got buffed, yes if you use it with a valiance/btb whatever it may take less hits if combined. But the difference is so miniscule for so many people to throw a big fit about it, You guys should instead complain about how the triglav/sudaruska are slower than gran faust and divine avenger (I mean cmon, they do less damage, AND THEY ARE SLOWER?), Something worth our time instead of a damage increase of about 30 damage? cmon. >.>

Tue, 03/11/2014 - 19:38

#25

Ardent-Light

No, no, no, no.

Acheron does the SAME amount of damage as Grand Faust. If I walked up to a random person, and asked them them if a heavy sword should be as strong as a light, fast sword. They would probably say no. It's COMMON SENSE. I have one, but I still complain about it. I'm pretty sure you made this thead so you can keep getting 30k damage with your Acheron.
@Uncle Si
How did I ignore the thread? Sure it takes 3 hits to kill someone with the other weapons, but elemental defense is a lot more common, while shadow defense is rare in comparison.

Sat, 03/22/2014 - 12:37

#26

Tempas

So just to bump this and to

So just to bump this and to get further discussion. I bought a glacius yesterday, heated it up. Played and still am playing LD with it now. Seems even better than my acheron(probably cause it has slightly higher asi). 3 hits people easily and elemental defense in lockdown is LESS common since only 2 armours you're going to see elemental from is vog and chaos. And just today I was able to break 20-30k easily with it today. So yes, acheron's buff is miniscule and other players only bitch about it cause they can't cope with being beat by it

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The truth about the "Damage buff" on the Acheron.