Spiral Knights - Autogun lines: their uses and purpose

Autogun lines: their uses and purpose

20 replies [Last post]

Thu, 04/10/2014 - 16:43

Holy-Nightmare

While the Blitz needle is the gun of choice for many knights due to the incredibly high power of its charge attack there may be reason to own the other autogun lines

The Fiery pepperbox has no strengths against any monster type but no weakness as well, this combined with the knockback, flinch rate, and decent DPS make for a gun that is more suited to pushing monsters back and chipping away at groups with an easy way to spread fire status (there are many weapons that can spread fire better but most if not all 5star fire weapons have elemental damage and do less damage to beast and gremlin)

The Blight needle has the same damage type (piercing) as the Blitz but even with the poison it cant match the DPS, so that leaves the question, why get one? First poison has more effects than lowering defense, it weakens attack and reverses healing which means that powerful monsters like vanaduke dont deal as much damage and menders are dangerous to poisoned monsters.

Both the fiery pepperbox and the blight needle make excellent support weapons for teams where safety is a concern.

But for you who love to see dozens of big numbers pop up when you unload into a monster's face, please continue to do so.

Feel free to critique my overview and provide me with suggestions on what you think I did right or wrong

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 05:47

Bopp

damage vs. status

In this game, there are several cases where you can trade a little damage for status: Acheron vs. Obsidian Edge, Nova Driver vs. Storm/Magma/Hail Driver, Blitz Needle vs. Plague Needle. Sometimes the extra damage makes no difference, in which case you should go for status. But sometimes the extra damage is just what you need to one-shot-kill a monster.

In the case of Autoguns, you want the extra damage so that you can one-shot-kill slag guards, kill Vanaduke in fewer charges, etc. Expert players don't care about lessening his damage because he never hits these players.

I do agree with your general sentiment, that many players could help their parties by spreading statuses such as fire and poison. This sort of support role is not very popular, though. Perhaps it requires a certain amount of maturity and selflessness.

Edit: By "support role is not very popular" I mean that not many people enjoy playing it themselves, even if they appreciate having other teammates play the support role.

Thu, 04/10/2014 - 19:07

Soulstaker

@Bopp

Sorry, but alot of parties I encounter love it when a bomber brings an Ash of Agni or a Venom Veilor.

Thu, 04/10/2014 - 20:13

Sandwich-Potato

Mostly because that means they get to beat stuff up more while someone else plays support.

Thu, 04/10/2014 - 20:21

Bopp

Soulstaker

Soulstaker, I understand every word of your post except "sorry". Aren't you are agreeing with me, that status-spreaders are an asset to their parties?

Thu, 04/10/2014 - 20:35

Sandwich-Potato

I think that xe is disagreeing with the support peep not being very popular, saying that whenever xe goes support, xe is welcomed with open arms or something.

Fri, 04/11/2014 - 04:53

Bopp

exactly

So we agree that support people are well-liked by their teammates.

I am making an additional statement, that not many people enjoy playing the support role themselves, because it is not fast and glamorous. That's the idea that's relevant to this thread. People who enjoy playing support will go for status-spreaders more than people who don't. But not many people enjoy playing support.

Fri, 04/11/2014 - 18:27

Fehzor

I love playing the support role :D

I think the plague needle could be on par with the blitz needle, but I'm not sure. Here is the logic, presuming that I am in the craziest arena of all time with respawning menders everywhere:

Plague needle damage = Initial Damage + Mender damage = 2970 + Mender damage
Blitz needle damage = Initial Damage = 4080

So the menders would have to deal 4080 - 2970 = 1110 to the poisoned enemies.

But the game doesn't work that way, because I'm not just firing onto one thing to big enemy. Lets say that I land 3-4 hits on a number of enemies.

Plague needle damage = Initial Damge + Mender damage = 198
Blitz needle damage = Initial Damage = 272

The difference there is just the number of needles that hit times 84! So if I have around 1000 health, and I get hit by 3 of the charge needles+poisoned, I'll be at around 400 health with plague needle or 180-200ish health with blitz. This means that the mender would likely focus on me and finish me off due to the strong poison, but that the mender would just heal me back to full health otherwise.

The enemies that I didn't poison will get to live and have an even nicer time, but consider the case where they'd live regardless of what I hit them with UNLESS I am able to poison them. And when you poison one enemy and it dies, it simplifies everything-- especially when it is a larger enemy like the deadnauts in LoA. Using plague on those might not be a bad idea.

Fri, 04/11/2014 - 18:34

Andyspace

everyone likes to be the damage warrior

when you join a party, almost everyone absolutely loves dealing damage again and again to defeat a certain enemy or a crowd of mobs. the people who support by applying status effects on enemies are a great help, and no one complains.

Fri, 04/11/2014 - 20:08

Soulstaker

@Bopp

You said spreading fire and poison status is not a popular support role . I said sorry because I disagreed. I'm not sure if I read the post wrong or I shouldn't use sorry when I disagree with someone.

Fri, 04/11/2014 - 23:39

#10

Gn-Bladious

Different auto for different senarios

You do prove the key points Holy to the auto family and yes they're fun to play with but what you use them may save your life in the Clockworks. What I mean is that using them in different problems in a battle may be a advantage or a weakness. The Auto family are good because they all have a offence, defense, and supportive style they all shoot fast.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 02:41

#11

Dirty-Harry

Status effects on guns

The amount of damage lost usually does not make up for the added bonuses of Poison or the neutral damage from the pepperbox. While poison is useful against menders and bosses, in most situations the risk of allowing something to live longer but deal less damage is not worth it, and gremlin menders specifically are dealt with shadow weapons. Poison specifically is one of the weaker effects because you never plan on getting hit during a run and it provides no CC.

In terms of blitz weapons, they are almost exclusively charge used. Meaning you intend to kill things in 1-2 bursts, whereas the Plague needle will need an extra charge or two to get the same job done, adding time and allowing more risks for your team to get hit.

The Auto-gun line is just not fit for a supportive role that a Catalyzer or Alchemer could do better.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:05

#12

Krakob

@Soulstaker

There's no need to apologise due to having different opinions/experiences than someone else. If you're being a jerk about it, you should, though. But if you're being a jerk, you're probably too jerky to realise it and wouldn't apologise either way. You're no jerk, though. So don't apologise.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:28

#13

Soulstaker

@Krakob

Well, I don't really like conflicts especially arguements in forums. I usually say sorry when I disagree so maybe it's just my personality.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:31

#14

Krakob

Forums exist for the sake of arguing :P

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 10:30

#15

Holy-Nightmare

@Krakob

Indeed, arguments not only bring further insight to the subject but also into each other. I enjoy hearing opinions and ideas from other thinkers.

As for the two autogun support lines it is best to understand when such weapons can be of best use to a team (Much like any weapon).

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 12:32

#16

Fehzor

I said that plague needle was good.

And no one argued with me. Not even Dirty Harry, who posted about how menders are dealt with with shadow weapons, despite the scenario I described with infinitely respawning gremlin menders + silkwings.

*sigh*

Tue, 04/15/2014 - 04:19

#17

The-Vindicar

Sadly, all autogun lines

Sadly, all autogun lines aren't that good against mobile targets, unless they're alone or packed in a bottleneck. What makes it even worse is that two families weak to piercing are programmed to dodge gunfire. So unless you can one hit kill your targets or have someone to distract them, chances of getting torn a new one while reloading remain way too high. Ideal targets for thigs like Blitz/Blight needle seem to be Snarby, Vana, Trojans... and that's about it.

While Volcanic Pepperbox sounds somewhat useful as a backup weapon, I'm still unsure if it's status effect compensates for decreased mobility.

Tue, 04/15/2014 - 08:19

#18

Stingz

Charge = Dead Devilite/Wolver

Autoguns stunt targets that get hit by the charge attack, get close enough to Wolvers and they can't teleport before getting hit. Devilites still get hit because of the wave pattern the charge attack has.

The old Pepperbox line used to suck in targets with reverse knockback(bug), was really fun seeing targets try and fail to escape the storm of bullets. The short range is the biggest problem with the current Pepperbox, might as well be using a sword.

Both lines are risky to use, but Pepperbox is really lacking. Short range, wide spread and mediocre damage aren't worth taking over a sword. I've heard this idea from someone else on the forums, let the Pepperbox line bullets puncture and hit multiple targets to make up for it's weaknesses.

Tue, 04/15/2014 - 09:10

#19

The-Vindicar

@Stingz

Charge = Dead Devilite/Wolver
One dead devilite/wolver. Two if you're lucky. And they often come in six-packs. I leveled to Blitz specifically to deal with those, and was rather disappointed. Don't forget that needlers also have a noticeable pre-fire delay.

So for me Needlers are very situational weapons that can't be fired instantly when you need it.

Wed, 04/16/2014 - 09:47

#20

Plancker

I dont have actual numbers

I dont have actual numbers but it seems you are only calculating 1 blitz vs 1 plague needle. For example against vanaduke it could be beneficial to have 1 plague needle and 3 blitz needles, instead of 4 blitz needles. The poison will benefit 4 guns, which should make up for the loss of damage on 1 of them. I am surprised you say most teams will appreciate when a venom veiler joins them, while plague needle is only viewed as inferior to blitz needle. To stay with my example of FSC, I personally dislike people who use venom veiler there, all it does is poison at the cost of 1 person dealing no damage (when they spam it on vortexed enemies for example...). You can use maskeraiths quills to poison enemies and deal damage from quills+your weapons at the same time.

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Autogun lines: their uses and purpose