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Buff all Pure-Normal Weapons by 10% - 20% to allow them to do a bit more damage than elemental neutral.

11 respuestas [Último envío]
Dom, 07/20/2014 - 16:22
Imagen de Glacies
Glacies

So after looking at the beautiful Tortofists I realize that there is a slight problem here. Aside from convenience, the Grand Tortofist is easily highly under-rated aside from the usefulness of the Trotodrone fight.

Why use anything Normal when I can just craft multiple of the same equipment and just be content with the fact I absolutely destroy everything with just these two?

Normal weapons used to be important in the general sense that you could not change equipment during an expedition in the Arcade. This is no longer the case and Normal-weapons are highly underrated and really need to be looked at. I love the new guns but it seems redundant to make a gun that has no use outside of its brethren.

My suggest as the title suggest is to buff these weapons by 10% - 20% based on their weapon type (Swords: 10% / Handguns and Bombs: 20%) to allow these Normal Weapons to be able to be more powerful than their elemental brethren's neutral damage, but still do slightly less than effective damage.

This will still leave open the ability for elemental-weapons to still do quite well, but still be somewhat weaker in comparison to neutral targets than it's eldest of brothers, Normal.

Dom, 07/20/2014 - 17:23
#1
Imagen de Sonosuke
Sonosuke
(~O ,O)~ +1

Honestly, we just need something that would make Normal damage a viable choice aside from allowing a Shadow weapon run in FSC/UFSC to be possible (Vana's shadow immunity though). I like this idea a lot. It shows that people still care about Normal stuff (so does Fehzor's E-Class Sprite suggestion, but that's a different story).

Lun, 07/21/2014 - 00:18
#2
Imagen de Sir-Turtlebear
Sir-Turtlebear

Nitronome/DBB (D24):
348 pure damage.
283 vs weak.
217 vs neutral.

We buff Nitro 20%:
417 pure damage.
286 vs neutral.

Might be a bit more warranted for Deadly Shard Bomb.

Let's instead reduce enemy normal defence by 20%.
Weak defence is ~65.5 at depth 4, and normal/neutral defence is ~131. We reduce just normal defence (not neutral) by 20% and get ~104.8

Nitronome/DBB:
348 pure damage.
283 vs weak.
243 Nitronome vs everything.
217 DBB vs neutrals.

This seems about right to me. Unfortunately, reducing normal defence would increase damage of the ever-notorious Acheron and other split-damage swords. I would propose to solve this by simply reducing the normal portion and/or overall damage of these swords.

Just for kicks, let's see if Deadly Shard Bomb becomes a decent weapon now:
Shards:
193 pure.
128 elemental vs effec-

Hold on this is laughably small. I'm sorry. Let's be realistic and go max damage because that's the only way you're getting anything out of shard bombs.

239 pure.
173 elemental vs effective.
134 deadly shards vs everything.
108 elemental vs neutral.

It's an improvement. You're certainly still much better off with a special weapon for the right situation, but the normal ones will be overall more effective, just like it should be.

Lun, 07/21/2014 - 02:02
#3
Imagen de Glacies
Glacies

Yeah, that's really the only problem otherwise I'd be up for it. I think specifically buffing things is easy to do along with the fact it doesn't break everything in the game. (it'd cause problems with swords really as you've said, we don't want Acheron to be buffed and won't it affect all neutral damage on weapons? Not just Normal Weapons?)

The percentages are really more or less just an example. Some weapons do need a smaller decrease than others, while other things (IE: Deadly Shard Bomb) actually deserves it.

Lun, 07/21/2014 - 02:30
#4
Imagen de Sir-Turtlebear
Sir-Turtlebear

"and won't it affect all neutral damage on weapons?"

No, not really. Normal is its own damage type and the game's system fully supports enemies having separate amounts of normal and neutral defence. For instance, you could increase the elemental defence on a slime without affecting its normal defence, as is the case with oilers.

The only non-normal weapons that would become stronger against enemies with reduced normal defence is FoV, Brandishes and Sealed Swords. Coincidentally, most of those weapons are in need of nerfs anyhow.

Also, a universal normal debuff would help non-weapon normal-damage things such as battle sprite harnesses.

Lun, 07/21/2014 - 02:31
#5
Imagen de Midnight-Dj
Midnight-Dj
one suggestion

Instead of buffing normal weapons, why not give specialized weapons a higher damage penalty against resistance monsters? This nerf should make brandishes far less desirable.

Lun, 07/21/2014 - 16:34
#6
Imagen de Fehzor
Fehzor

I guess this could work. I think it would make specialized weapons significantly less useful against varieties of monsters; for instance, why bring deadly crystal bomb or scintillating sun shards to an undead+fiend area when your overall damage using the normal type deadly shard bomb would be better? All of the sudden, we've killed off all of the specialized weapons.

But at the same time, maybe that's the point. There should be situations where you want normal damage over specialized, but is that really what we want the game to be like? Take for example compound 42. What is objectively the best armor there? Dragon set. So if you wanna do C42, craft dragon set, win. Want to do ghosts in the machine? Craft elemental weapons, win. Want to beat compounds? Craft normal damage weapons, win. With a broader use for specialized weapons, we give the player the ability to successfully use say......... storm driver to fight fiends.

A better alternative would be the way things ramp in damage. Lets say that they made normal damage ramp up faster, such that a normal weapon dealt the same damage as a specialized weapon at damage increased: max. Since the humans that play Spiral Knights typically like to stack stats up for their favorite weapon type, it would allow a wider variety of side arms.

But regardless, I'd just like to see this issue with normal damage being useless solved, because it kind of devalues a good number of weapons.

Mar, 07/22/2014 - 23:03
#7
Imagen de Glacies
Glacies

Personally I'm not entirely sure it would kill off specialized, most people I see run with either two offensive elemental-based weaponry or just one. You'd still end up doing effective much more than normal could dish out than with a specialized who has a keen role against 33.3% of the game. You could either go with two specialized-weapons and deal effective to 66.6% or take a normal-weapon and deal lesser but decent damage to everything. It gives it personally multiple choices in the matter. (at least in my view, I could be wrong!)

And I agree, this issue really needs to be brought into daylight, because if they're adding more guns with normal damage without a buff, then we're just going to get a pile of things that are just going to be sitting in the closet not to be touched unless by those who like to play with that style which sadly is a very small amount.

Jue, 07/24/2014 - 01:34
#8
Imagen de Fehzor
Fehzor

I suppose that the developers should really test a number of solutions including this one, because I honestly can't say that it would make normal too strong or even not strong enough. Beyond that, is the issue of how gracefully this would work into the game, and like I said, I don't want normal to become the new dragon scale mail, wherein any and all levels with more than 3 enemy types present regularly become "normal damage levels".

But really, I'm sure they could come up with an optimal solution to this problem if they acknowledged it and worked through it.

Jue, 07/24/2014 - 12:12
#9
Imagen de Holy-Nightmare
Holy-Nightmare
I have thought about this

I have thought about this before myself, but the problem I run into is "what % increase would make normal weapons good enough without overshadowing everything?".

Buff them too much and we have the Acheron problem again but with an entire arsenal of weapons.
Not enough and people will just get a weapon slot and ignore the buff. (why get a Deadly shard bomb when you can choose 3 specialized weapons to fit any shard bomber's needs?)

I used shard bombs as an example because they are one of the few weapon types to have all 4 damages, once the gunner update several guns lines will have new types including the blaster line, this means that the Valiance will slowly get overshadowed as new guns are crafted up.

Jue, 07/24/2014 - 19:47
#10
Imagen de Sonosuke
Sonosuke
(~O ,O)~ #Sonosuks

I'd say something along the lines of this:

Buff damage of pure normal weapons by about 1/2 of weakness damage.

To put it in another way, say enemies weak to elemental would be like a damage increase medium UV towards neutral enemies. We buff pure normal damage weapons so they'd be equivalent to a damage increase low UV.
Of course, that's not actually how vulnerable damage deals, but I'm making a point.

Vie, 07/25/2014 - 14:18
#11
Imagen de Gbot-Vtwo
Gbot-Vtwo
Sonosuke that is a good idea.

Sonosuke that is a good idea.

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