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Fix/Nerf the Overcharged Mixmaster == SUGGESTION ACCEPTED

14 replies [Last post]
Wed, 11/05/2014 - 16:49
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat

New weapons are always a cause for celebration in SK. Even if we don't like them it's always nice to see something totally new.
But this gun...
/em shakes head

A bug report was filed on this gun. This gun is thoroughly flawed.
The key issues in my opinion:

It allows players to bypass maps sections and cause game-stopping problems. This point has been illustrated ad nauseum: you can get stuck in certain map areas, you can skip rooms in IMF, skip half the map on Jigsaw Valley, etc.
It shoots though a walls. THROUGH. WALLS. That includes walls such as treasure box pay gates.
It doesn't trigger monster defenses. You can mow down mech knights with impunity. This is the only ranged weapon in the game with that behavior--even the torto gun charge triggers mech shields and wolver teleports.

Altering the bullet's origin would resolve two issues. I propose two solutions since I do not know which would require less dev time:

Originate Bullet Behind the Gun: Can the bullet's path be started behind the gun (the tile the knight occupies) instead of in front?
Backwards Recoil: Many gun charge shots push you back half a tile. Add that motion to this gun for the regular shot. This would also balance the monster defenses if it causes a pause with each shot.

This gun's mechanic is utterly broken. OOO needs to redesign maps to accomodate this gun OR fix the gun itself.
--Cheshireccat

UPDATE: Fixed in the 2015-01-15 Patch Notes http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/107775

Wed, 11/05/2014 - 17:36
#1
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
Yes

Yes

Wed, 11/05/2014 - 18:40
#2
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

It isn't broken. We just let paying players shoot through walls.

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 05:11
#3
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

the day they fix this is the day they fix antigua, sealed sword, and gorgo hitboxes, along with the wall glitch for other guns
i want it fixed, it just wont happen

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 06:24
#4
Avihr's picture
Avihr
Void

the list of things with wrong/messed up hitboxes is a tad bit larger than that, but nobody cares I guess, or pherhaps they are not visible and broken enough for most ppl to care.

I predict that if they change this gun not to shoot through walls it's going to start colliding with walls behind the player, much like it happened to Faust and Avenger bullet swords.

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 12:30
#5
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

Cheshire fixed that already aviri
one spawns in the player (not behind) one spawns where a regular shot would, thats just rotating where it starts sort of
and the charge can't go through walls so that doesnt need changing (if it did get changed it would probably hit the wall behind due to it being a larger hitbox

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 13:06
#6
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat
Considered Response

I argue that this weapon presents a much larger flaw than any issues with Antigua/Sealed/monster hitboxes.

Of the three stated issues my primary complaint about this weapon is that it ignores the precepts of level design. SK maps are not designed for a weapon that has the properties of this gun--it ignores core principles of SK's map formula.

@Aviri Good point on the "colliding walls behind the player." You are correct, it probably will. But if that's what it takes to fix this gun and prevent it from breaking the game I consider that an acceptable side effect.
--Cheshireccat

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 13:32
#7
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
...

Even with this effect I still find the DA an extremely useful weapon to have in the FSC (few weapons can move so many slags in just one charge attack).

Gorgos need bigger hitboxes, less attack power, and less movement (both the hovering motion and attack range).

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 16:07
#8
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

I figured out how to stop the mixmaster returning shots from hitting a switch it shouldn't
its simple, make them boomerang to where they were fired from, not the knight
that would prevent the map breaking issue

Thu, 11/06/2014 - 17:56
#9
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

More seriously, I actually think revamping the levels instead of the items would make for a better experience. Maybe not a better experience for the developers though..

Fri, 11/07/2014 - 12:39
#10
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat
@Fehzor

Really? You think checking and revamping every level and room tile in the game to accomodate one rare weapon is a better solution than editing the weapon?
I think it makes more sense to nerf the weapon and let OOO devote their time to every other idea in the Suggestions subforum. ;)
--Cheshireccat

Fri, 11/07/2014 - 14:16
#11
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Seems like a good fix.

Having the bullet originate behind/in the player would be a good fix. Perhaps having a hit number on each bullet? Or once it hits something it returns to the place it was fired taking the same path? Having the charge shot pierce enemies (and not walls!) would be okay by me, but having the normal shots do that too makes the weapon itself overpowered as well as game breaking.

Balance nerf to it would be single shots don't pierce, charge shots do pierce, and spawn the bullets in the player. All this means is that you can't stand with your back to a wall while using this weapon, which you probably shouldn't be doing if you're using a gun anyways.

Sat, 11/08/2014 - 07:14
#12
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

cant think of any better fix than fangels

Sat, 11/08/2014 - 19:09
#13
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I did not say zat! Yes, it makes more sense to fix the item in this case. Redoing the entire game around a single item is ridiculous. BUT- I think that the game would be infinitely more interesting to replay if levels were made to be more dynamic and items were expanded to account for this, and that if the developers were to refocus their efforts on the original concepts of the game and make such a huge change, it would be highly beneficial in the long run.

Currently, there are no real puzzle elements in the game despite puzzle elements being one of the draws to the game. There is never a scenario where I have to figure out something, or solve something new for myself, and there is no real means of exerting creativity to your advantage. Whenever there is a "puzzle", it involves either mashing switches or matching a key to a door. Placing the one remaining piece into a jigsaw puzzle does NOT constitute solving the puzzle.

The mixmaster adds 'real' puzzle elements to the game just by way of allowing the player to hit through walls to places they normally couldn't. It fundamentally changes the way that you play the game, and lets you plan ahead to get a better result should you choose to do so. The alchemers do the same thing when they let you shoot around corners.

So what if, the developers made a huge change to items and the general level design? I'll write up what I'm talking about exactly, though I admit that it's a long shot and that the game hasn't been going this way in terms of development. But I can dream.

EDIT: Here is my unrealistic post about what the game could be- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/105990

@Fangel

I actually kind of think that bullets getting stuck on things really kills the attack more than you'd think. It's basically why so few people use divine avenger over the brandishes. I think that they should really focus on just putting a check into the game that detects bullets and apply it to a good many weapons etc.

Here is how it could work:

On collision with block, is the shot coming from one of the offending items? If so, check whether it has had time to travel at all. If so, check the direction of the player in relation to the block. If the player is facing away from the block, nothing happens. THEN, we can spawn whatever we want behind or inside the player.

Something like this, would be the solution to all of these wallhacking items.

Wed, 01/21/2015 - 13:06
#14
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat
/Cheer

Fixed!

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