So the concept of "what armor is" was changed by the gunner update.
Mi, 01/14/2015 - 14:24
Now that gunners have perfect coverage with decent handgun stats to back that up, it is only right for bombers and swordies to receive that same kind of coverage. It makes no sense for gunner armor to just be incredibly strong compared to swordie and bomber armor for no real reason.. Assuming that bombers and swordies do receive perfect coverage in the future, where does that leave the rest of armor sets and types?
The other armor sets could just be left there, but would you ever want to use armor of the fallen over the sword/gun fire+shadow variant? Or bombastic demo? Would you rather use bombastic demo, or an elemental+freeze variant that gives charge time reduction? At the same time those redundant armors are of little consequence when the new sets conflict with themselves internally- if I craft a fire+shadow set, I'm only really ever going to want one of them because the cost to craft a second armor set to deal with one different enemy is just ridiculous- we're talking about moving a 4% bonus around.
So will the other armor sets and types receive something? Will we get a blanket of split resistance armors so that I can resist piercing + elemental + freeze for example? What about things like grey feather set? How will those be handled? Is it even still possible to fix the armors so that all are relevant and interesting in some way?
What do you guys think the future will hold for us?
Mi, 01/14/2015 - 14:59
#2
too much variety
The idea is that a (rich) gunner can craft many sets, so that he always has one perfectly tuned to the situation? If you ignore heating, then it's probably cheaper than my typical strategy, which is putting extreme UVs on a couple of sets.
Frankly I'm not a fan of the 36 new armor lines. They create variety by simple combinatorial explosion, rather than by careful, customized design, which would be more impressive. Sadly my conclusion is that Three Rings wanted to make the gunner update "look bigger than it is".
If I were in charge of Spiral Knights, then Spiral Knights would probably be destroyed instantly by my first terrible decision. But let me tell you anyway what that would be. I would completely redesign the damage calculation, so that damage protections have more effect. Glass cannon armors would be terrible at damage as well as status. Ancient Plate would become actually tanky.
Those are my rambling responses to your prompt. Cheers.
Mi, 01/14/2015 - 17:30
#3
my 34 cents
I have to agree with Bopp on this one, GU is poorly thought out and suffers from 'Too Much Candy' syndrome, where the content become so inflated that they do no longer hold much value. The new armor have no inspiration behind them and the fact that they cover all statuses and monsters actually reduce the value of the SK arsenal as a whole. You no longer have to get different pieces of armor to get the status resistance and damage bonus you needed, instead, just get XX gunner helm and XX gunner armor, boom.
The funnest time I had in the past when I first started off playing this game is thinking of all the armor combinations I could have, which suit my play style better, but now... what is even the point? Just buy the desired gunner armor recipe and craft said armor, then use them in the corresponding themed monster level and you win the game.
The armors before GU were perfect, I don't see why new ones need to be implemented, why should gunner have better status resistance when they are not fighting in the front line? Why should anyone have the right to wear snarby coat if they can't breach the core? Why should anyone have AoE damage while still having resistance against all three damage types? The truth is, we as players are responsible for this mess of an update, it is through our whining that OOO forced out these new armor with little to no thought put into them, so it is now up to us to live with the consequence.
Mi, 01/14/2015 - 17:40
#4
Have to agree too
Personally, I think these gunner armor isnt really that good. If you want something that actually is useful with the same # of abilities, just use Perfect Mask of Seerus with Chaos Cloak. CTR VH, DMG Med, and ASI Low. The defence isn't so low either. And as Bopp said, the defence for amo is barely noticeable. Win-WIn!
Mi, 01/14/2015 - 21:26
#5
↓
All the new gunner armors are "glass cannon" level defense ["base" by wiki terminology].
The new gunner armors fully embrace the idea that armor isn't about resisting, but rather pulling out all the offensive boosts that you can get and pairing it with status resists. It reminds me of a Zeddy suggestion [which I opposed].
I'm with Bopp on that idea. First thing I would revamp is the damage system, rewarding defensive armors and penalizing glass cannon armors. This change would include re-balancing health trinkets vs defensive trinkets. The more people learn the actual numbers of armor... the more they realize how utterly useless it is for defensive stats.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 02:20
#6
@ at work, having lunch
I also doubt that there will sword/bomber sets similar to the new 36 ones. Of which many are 'meh'. I mean, who'd possible ever make like the Sacred Snakebite Wraith(poison + gremlin)?
Most ppl will keep using the chaos and/or bk sets most of the time anyways.
I'm still waiting for startum 7, tho. Hopefully it'll come out before 2020.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 05:07
#7
im vohtarak, call me by that name
"I'm still waiting for stratum 7"
That's hilarious, really
Do, 01/15/2015 - 09:07
#8
Lol, Zeddy was also against Zeddy's suggestion... the other "utterly useless" thread that Zeddy and I came up with was written a good year and a half ago or so. It really got me thinking about how armor needed to be fixed, which eventually became my large "On class and equipment design" thread, here- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/80053
I suppose they could still do some sort of total armor redux, it would just be a bit odd.... imagine if they gave all armor lines full coverage AND differentiated them as sets rather than as individual armor pieces. That's really the only "problem" with just redoing how defenses work. You have these huge numbers of gunner armors and recipes learned and all of that contrasting with all of the existing armors... and to top it all off, the whole radiant fire crystal issue (defensive armors require radiant fire crystals to be useful at all, offensive ones benefit very little?) isn't going away.
To be honest, I kind of feel sorry for the developers on this one. I bet they'll just kind of do nothing and we'll continue to have a huge pile of nonsensical trash armors-- like the whole snarbolax+dread smelly+valkyrie debacle. I mean it all "works" and most players are oblivious to it, it's just incredibly poor game design that could actually accomplish something and add more to the game than just a weak resource sink.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 09:28
#9
............
Gunner sets can deal with being "Glass cannons" due to the fact that gunners are never close to the action.
New Bomber gear would have to come in "Glass cannon" and "Mighty Glacier" sets with some being able to dish out good damage (less than Mad, but more than Volcanic) and some being more of a Mix of Plate line styled defenses and some light offensive boosts.
Wolver lines are fine as they are but it would be nice to have some with different Status and type defense mixes with some more variation on a pure sword damage or sword speed boost. Perhaps some could come with mixed Med boosts and a single status resist.
___________________________________________________________________________________
If you notice, all of the weapon offensive lines (gunner, bomber, striker, GU) all have ONE status resist (except Seerus Mask which comes with 2 penalties). Several of the other armors have multiple status resists. Crafting a set with multiple status resists may not be helpful in completing levels fast but they can pull through in more levels with less damage taken than a set with low defense and just one status.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 10:28
#10
Void
mhm... mhm very interesting, and after all this time you still think that they are going to do something like fixing damage resistances?
The future... is Void, probably equally as dull and souless equipment for swordsman and bombers finally making everything else obsolete.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 10:49
#11
@ Aviri
In the long run they will be relatively obsolete as the old players will have crafted every set for every situation.
Sets with multiple resists are for those situations in which you need multiple resists or damage types (danger missions and some other places).
For those who don't plan on playing years (or paying $$$) the Multi status resist sets will be the best choice.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 14:27
#12
Well you must realize that the only important thing when it comes to resisting things is that it has the correct match up. With the exception of plate armor and normal defense, the difference between having a set that absorbs things minimally and having a set that absorbs things maximally is a little over half a tick of damage per hit. I believe Skepticraven posted the link to how defenses work.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 18:44
#13
Not sure what you meant by
Not sure what you meant by the "little over half a tick of damage per hit", but in my opinion damage from attacks is fine. With no piercing defense I took 9.5 bars of damage (35% hp) from a wolver in nature of the beast, when I used a skolver set with piercing max on each piece, I took 5.25 bars of damage (19.5% hp). I think to make the armors like dread skelly and grey feather worth it, they need to make more parts of the clockworks have dual status. A way to balance most of the armors with chaos and BK would be to take a look at LD; in LD, chaos isnt used nearly as much as in PvE, where it is basically the only set you'll ever need if you are into that. The reason is because in PvE, almost all of the status is strong (very little of it is moderate), so whether youre wearing chaos or dread skelly, you will get frozen or poisoned, its just gonna wear off faster, which isnt such a big deal since you have remedy pills. In LD however, status bombs can cover large area's with minor status, which completely stops chaos armor, but other armors can run through if they have the right resists, thats a huge bonus. I think if they added something like large area's of minor status infliction, or like in danger rooms, instead of the spike cross that alternates, create a permanently active minor status cross: that way, "defensive armors" can kite over it, while chaos players are restricted to 1/4th of the room (they can still cross it, but they'd take status). And yes, this would also make dread skelly have an actual advantage over the snarbolax set, since a full snarby set is not immune to the minor status, but dread skelly is.
tl;dr damage protection is fine, add minor status 'spam' to pve to restrict movement of BK/Chaos armors, to balance those with the rest of the armors. Then also add some dual status levels to the clockworks, to make grey feather/dread skelly-like sets have a defensive edge over the armors like skolver/snarbolax/vog cub in those areas.
EDIT: along with the minor status and dual status in PvE, I would like to see another thing that comes from LD to be implemented in Pve: the one-way barriers that are placed around some capture points/health pads (only 1 teams bullets can go through them). That way we could place turrets behind them, so the strongest weapon type in game cant steamroll them as easily (guns). We could also have the barriers create a small passage way that you need to go through before you can reach either side of the room to kill the turrets there. A set-up like that would greatly weaken SSB, since you will want a decent shield so you can tank some bullets and then perhaps use your dash to get behind the barriers to reach the turrets. Add some minor status that is around the turrets when you get behind the barrier and you have yourself a decent challenge when using "chaos/ssb for everything", and loadouts that have more specialised defense + status resist and a good shield will be able to get past the barriers, ignore the status, and take care of the turrets with ease.
EDIT2: Both ideas would be for post Tier 3 though, like danger rooms, or only stratum 6. (Preferably a stratum past 6, since danger rooms are so uncommon and short.) This is because new tier 3 players will only have access to one armor set, possibly cobalt, which then puts them in the same spot as chaos armor, but without the offense power. Its meant for players who have been in T3 for a while, and have a couple different sets they can use to reach the immunities needed for each different level.
Do, 01/15/2015 - 18:48
#14
Plancker, I meant the difference between say, black kat and dread skelly. One of these is defence oriented and the other is glass cannon. How much is the difference against pure shadow?
Do, 01/15/2015 - 19:16
#15
I wouldnt know, since i dont
I wouldnt know, since i dont have a full BK set and my dread skelly set isnt heated. BUT i dont think the difference needs to be that huge if they were to implement the minor status I suggested. Grey feather would have a huge bonus over chaos armor in a level with minor shock or minor fire that restricts you from moving around the area. Even more if its dual fire+shock. BK vs Dread skelly would be a bit more even since BK has the freeze resist, but I dont think thats too much of a big deal. Now lets say you have that set up with turrets behind a barrier, and they have some minor poison around them for when you manage to get behind the barrier, Im pretty sure id prefer having a dread skelly that can walk over the poison, over a max dmg set that takes more damage from shots, gets even more damage because poisoned, and has its max dmg bonus nullified because of the poison. (you could still use a gun to bypass the poison when you are behind the barrier, but at least you arent able to snipe the howlitzers with your alchemer charge; but normal shots or a sword would work)
this is the setup i had in mind in this and the previous post: http://imgur.com/7KJ1tgw
green dots are knights, lime green is minor poison, purple dots are howlitzers and their bullets, red is the barriers we cant shoot through, but they can.
The only setup in the clockworks currently that is a decent challenge without guns that I can think of, is the one with the spike floor guarding 4 polyps and some chromalisks. The problem with those though is that guns take care of them really easily, and the spike floor that alternates fast still hits any armor, a minor status would benefit armors like skolver/dread skelly/vog/grey feather/etc.
Sa, 01/17/2015 - 06:27
#16
> " I think to make the
> " I think to make the armors like dread skelly and grey feather worth it, they need to make more parts of the clockworks have dual status."
I always use the skelly JUST BECUASE IT LOOKS AWESOME.
who cares if I''m min-maxed, I just want to look cool and have fun. And if I'm torn apart by things that pierce skelly armor, well, elevators are free now, I can just try again!
Sa, 01/17/2015 - 06:26
#17
Or you could just use the costume slots...
Sa, 01/17/2015 - 06:28
#18
> "Or you could just use the
> "Or you could just use the costume slots..."
BAH! real men don't use costume slots
Sa, 01/17/2015 - 09:15
#19
Void
@Darklordskull
Well then, suit yourself....
(Oh god it's so bad)
Mo, 02/02/2015 - 23:28
#20
^
yeah, it is
Bombers and Swordies won't get new armors. Plain as that.
BUT, if they did, I feel like it would be incredibly hard to balance. It might take, say, another 2 years.
Also, Bombastic is is a PvP set. Nothing else, unless you're rich on trinkets, in which case it can be a Freeze variant of Volcanic.