Spiral Knights - Just make every weapon do everything already

Just make every weapon do everything already

66 replies [Last post]

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 02:20

Zeddy

How current weapons would be converted to the new system.
Armours.

Remove most of the game's weapons.
We'll end with a list that looks something like this:
- Calibur.
- Brandish.
- Troika.
- Sealed.
- Flourish.
- Thorn Blade. (Different charge.)
- Spur.
- Cutter.
- Hammer.
- Blaster.
- Alchemer.
- Pulsar.
- Catalyzer.
- Magnus.
- Antigua.
- Autogun.
- Needle shot. (Has range instead of knockback, otherwise equal.)
- Blast Bomb.
- Shard Bomb.
- Vaporizer.
- Vortex.
- Retribution.
Every weapon starts at 1*, normal damage.
When upgrading the weapon, you must bind an orb to it. These are the orbs:
- Weighted Orb/Heavy Orb/Massive Orb/Supermassive Orb (2* - 5*)
- Magic Orb/Mystic Orb/Arcane Orb/Ancient Orb
- Needle Orb/Spiked Orb/Wild Orb/Golden Orb
- Shadow Orb/Dark Orb/Evil Orb/Doom Orb
- Warm Orb/Hot Orb/Fiery Orb/Volcanic Orb
- Chilly Orb/Cold Orb/Freezing Orb/Subzero Orb
- Static Orb/Charged Orb/Shocking Orb/Lightning Orb
- Unhealthy Orb/Toxic Orb/Virulent Orb/Plague Orb
- Daze Orb/Dazzling Orb/Stunning Orb/Smackdown Orb
- Curse Orb
Names are dumb but you get the idea. The weighted orb changes the weapon's damage type to normal and increases damage. Magic, Needle and Shadow orb change damage type of the weapon to their own while increasing damage. The status orbs adds slight chance of minor status. Each extra status orb added increases the status. Upon upgrading status, the player can choose if they want to upgrade chance of status or the strength.
Curse Orb is 5*. When added, using the weapon will also add chance of self-curse.
If you use a shadow orb to upgrade an elemental weapon, the weapon just turns into shadow. So your weapon can have different damage types at 4* and 5*. Handy if you want to see which damage type works best for a given weapon before deciding.

We seem to be heading towards a game where every weapon comes in every damage type, might as well automize it. Binding an orb will be permanent, so once your weapon is 5* you'll need to start the line over again to get a weapon in a different damage type.

All the currently existing weapons owned by players will simply be converted to the closest analogy using this system. Triglav, for instance was made something like so:
Troika (1*) + Weighted Orb (2*) + Cold Orb (3*) + Freezing Orb (4*) + Supermassive Orb (5*)

Fang of Vog is a Calibur with fire. Self-infliction is removed.

Vaporizers inflict a low amount of damage if not imbued with a status orb. This amount of damage is trivial and not intended to be a viable path for the line.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 03:43

Aplauses

I'm afraid that vaporizer + curse orb will be OP, even though it can self-curse. (assuming people wear curse resistance armor)

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 05:22

Zeddy

Notice how there is only one Curse orb. The highest achievable curse available on a weapon would me slight chance of minor Curse.

Slight chance is about a 15% chance.

A vaporizer lasts for five seconds, and ticks 1 times per second.

This means that, when placing a single curse haze, you have a 85%^5 = 44% chance of not cursing a target that lingers in the haze for its entire duration.

Keep that in mind.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 06:38

Neueragon

very interesting idea, but if this gets implemented, many people will still rage.
if curse can only be minor, what happens to GF?
what about single or triple blade sealed charge?
also, im sad you left out FoV, imagine having a wep like it with a status of your choosing. it can deal the status on normal hit, deals it on charge and might self-status you. imagine a freeze variant, everything is stopped right where you charge at it.

I would add more possibilities or status and damage type customisation, imagine making a spilt antigua like before the update

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 06:49

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

did I miss something about new weapons?
anyway, it seems like an ok thing.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 07:22

Aplauses

I don't understand but I try

@Zeddy
Based on wiki, the lowest duration of curse is 22 seconds.

So if you have 10 points of resistance, the cursed weapon will become 1. Lets say you equip 2 similar curse haze bomb, infinite spamming everywhere without even care about the curse since getting self-inflict again will only extend the duration. Possible exploit.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 08:44

Khamsin

@Aplauses

Or clever use of game mechanics.

I know Zeddy made this as a joke, but I actually think 'constructing' your own weapon like this sounds amazingly awesome.

A new sword, gun, and bomb line that can be completely tweaked to your liking... that sounds amazing to me. Although I suppose brandish/alchemer/haze bombs kind-of sort-of fill this concepts, being able to go the full distance and completely customize it would be awesome.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 08:52

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Yes, this would be awesome, especially if they balance it. Then your UV would really be quite a UV. (There would be a lot of possibilities.)

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 09:08

Neueragon

waitaminute...

spur is on the weapon list! imagine a shock spur, with every single orb being the shock ones, max shock strength, good shock chance. that would be so epic.

also,@applauses, as he said before, there will only be minor curse, so the curse duration will be a lot shorter to begin with

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 10:29

Zeddy

@Neueragon

GF would get minor curse. In exchange, it would have the same quick charge time DA enjoys.

Also, there is a weapon like FoV. It's called Calibur.

@Aplauses

Okay, enjoy your double 5* curse haze bombs that need to be stacked, requiring you to kite enemies through them for a while before they get cursed. At this point, the amount of curse damage enemies take is also very much lowered compared to strong curse. Also, it won't work on 1/3 of the game's families and bosses. Also, it won't work on lumbers.

Wow, that's a really OP loadout you've got there.

Is the curse the only problem with the suggestion at large? I could remove the curse orb. It was added as an afterthought in the first place.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 10:34

#10

Neueragon

@Zeddy

would it also have the triple blade? ;)
the only problem with minor curse is that it lasts pretty shortly only, which isnt really worth the faster charging IMO

and i know FoV and calibur are pretty similar, but their attack and status patterns have some big differences:
1. normal attack can cause status
2. normal attack is slower
3. normal attack has larger range
4. charge can hit up to 4 times
5. charge can self-inflict status
those differences are even larger than some other weps you listed, i would really keep it as its own group.

on another note, how would those custom weps look like?

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 11:49

#11

Fangel

I'm conflicted

On one hand, this sounds amazing. On the other hand, a piercing brandish and a curse blitz seem rather... Well...

Perhaps giving the weapons a variation similar to how the sprites work so that you can customize the weapons to a limit. Flourishes could not deal normal damage, brandishes will have split normal/not-piecing damage, and cursed items have greatly increased charge times. With a few rules set in stone, I would whole-heartedly get behind this idea.

Also, how would boss weapons work? Would you buy the base weapon with tokens still? Where would you find these new orbs? Are they rarities in the clockworks? Are some purchaseable with boss tokens? (Roarmulus giving us the shock option, Vanaduke the curse?)

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 11:51

#12

Bookmarkmayne

That would be freaking

That would be freaking awesome except for the part where everyone's already got UVed versions of the old weapons.

Great idea, three years late in suggestion.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 14:00

#13

Zeddy

@Fangel

I'm open for discussion on limitations, in vein of Battle Sprite harnesses. Perhaps each weapon could have two statuses and one damage type simply not be available?

Boss weapons are bought at Brinks, the token trader as usual.

My thought is that the orbs are crafted through alchemy. Instead of crafting the weapons, you craft the orbs and then attach them to the weapon, which upgrades them.

@Neueragon
Levi doesn't have any status variants, so you don't really know that the normal attacks on it wouldn't cause status. I'm inclined to agree otherwise, so let's add:

Fang line. Slower and weaker than a calibur, but the charge is stronger. Any statuses applied have a chance for self-infliction of equal strength and probability.

"on another note, how would those custom weps look like?"

That's a toughie. We largely have models of various weapons in different damage types already. Those could be used with some more added to have visual varieties of at least all the damage types available for a given weapon line. Some cleverly placed recoulorable/retexturable bits could account for statuses.

And yes, the minor curse Gran Faust would have the triple blade.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 14:47

#14

Neueragon

important stuff goes up here

now then, lets get to the bombs...
the blast bombs are a tricky bunch, considering the following points with nitronome being the norm:
1. BAB has a larger range, higher damage, longer charge, longer fuse and larger movement speed decrease than the other bombs
2. irontech is somewhere between BAB and nitro
3. the proto bombs have lower knockback than nitro
4. DBB has a large area, fast charge and normal movement speed/fuse, while having no knockback
maye this should let the blast ones split at least a bit, like into blast bombs, barrage bombs and large blast bombs (or make a better name)

another thing is with damage types, would the swords all be pure damage type like hammers and toothpicks, or rather split like brandishes and sealed?
PS: I would kill for a normal/freeze FoV

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 15:02

#15

Skepticraven

Recipes

What happens to em? They're a pretty large crn sink especially every time they release new weapons. What about "event" based weapons, like the obsidian that just ended?

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 15:10

#16

Aotr

thought i can never see this happening, they might just remove 90% of the weapons by doing this

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 15:23

#17

Zeddy

@Neueragon

Interesting thoughts about the bombs. There are a few options:

Have a heavy blast bomb and a knockback free blast bomb line seperate from the regular blast bomb line. There's no need to include all of the three big blasties, in my opinion. Have a BAB and a Nitro, we can do without Irontech. Let's call them Blast (Nitro), Nuke (BAB) and Disruptor (DBB).
Have more orbs with special properties. Maybe a 5* orb can trade speed for power? Maybe another could do nothing but cancel knockback? One could trade speed for knockback? However, a lot of these variations would be very weapon-specific and I don't really like that.

Knockback and radius has always increased with each upgrade for blast bombs in the first place, so I'm not too worried about that.

About the damage types, they would all be pure damage. SK's engine simply doesn't lend itself to balancing split damage, and as can be clearly seen in Sealed, Brandish and old RSS, it tends to fall on the overpowered side.

I'll have a post up later on how exactly current weapons would be converted to the new system.

@Skepticraven
One-time use orb recipes.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 15:43

#18

Skyguarder

What will Gran Faust users, etc. get after this happens?

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 15:52

#19

Neueragon

well...

you actually made the bomb separation just as i suggested ;)
and on another note, I wouldnt go with special orbs, too much has to be done to properly balance them, but if you must, i would go with them alongside the other orbs (you could have some system where each upgrading takes mats, alchemy orbs, status/damage orb and a specialisation orb)
on the non-split damage, you will make some very specialised people unhappy, but hey, ill be able to dust off my levi again ;D
now on the topic of default UVs, such as the gremlin med on sentenza, if you get those weps converted into their... um... post-edit variants, would those disappear or rather stay as regular UVs?

@skyguarder
faster charge, three blades on each attack, basically just a shadow DA with chance for minor curse

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 16:38

#20

Fangel

Oh oh! More questions!

How would family bonus-based weapons work? Would you stack on bonuses to the weapon through orbs or rely solely on unique variants? (Sentenza, various shard bombs, Cold Iron Carver) Would certain statuses be related to certain damage types? (A shadow weapon being required to inflict curse, piercing and normal weapons could cause stun, etc.) Would there be certain names attached to the weapons, or could we finally name our weapons? Would full-inspect show off the orbs required to get the same item? Would heating weapons be just about the same as it is now, or would it change? Is adding multiple statuses to one weapon possible?

And now for my thoughts on some things listed:

Split damage

Since you're essentially splitting damage types, weapons would do less damage overall. If you split a hammer's damage between elemental and normal, you now have a mobile Divine Avenger, but it would do less damage VS undead and construct(but more damage vs gremlins and beasts). Maybe certain weapon lines could provide more/less orbs to compensate for balance(or the orbs would be out of a total "stat pool" with a maximum number of orbs the user can bind to the weapon).

Weapon Appearance

I can see the weapons having a "color scheme" feel to them. Damage types would have a color assigned to them, and would have certain noticeable features for pure damage weapons(ex. That glowing effect on the flourishes for piercing swords). Statuses would have a color assigned to them too, and perhaps visual effects; Freeze would be a light blue and gain a freeze aura around it, fire would be red-orange and gain a flame aura around it, etc.

Bombs!

I believe having the different blast bombs would be wonderful! However, they may need a visual overhaul - blue explosion from a shadow nitronome seems odd.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 16:50

#21

Neueragon

@fangel

I already mentioned the UVs, but they most likely will not come from orbs, so that the system can stay more or less clear, else we would start to get some pretty strange and complicated things going on with those new orbs.
to split damage, did you know that split damage actually means you get more out of damage bonuses? so no, a DA can be far more effective against construct and undead when both have higher dmg bonuses.
considering blast recolours, honestly, i think something like that is an obvious thing to change, especially as the recolouring is pretty easy when you look into spiralspy and find the blast effects which can naturally recolour somewhat

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 17:05

#22

Aplauses

@Zeddy

I forgot about "minor curse". My bad. ._.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 17:11

#23

Arkate

Zeddy...

You're starting to go the way many other veterans went. Down the quick, and easy path. You are no longer afraid of you bad patches. You are angry. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to the darkside.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 17:35

#24

Waffleconecake

How do I what do?

I dunno about this. I like the broadness that this would provide but I don't think it would fix the issue we currently have with weapons which is some are just over all much better then the rest. Now I would love to run around with 3 different static cutters, one for each status, and a BAB but I feel this much freedom could be exploited heavily. Imagine how much a normal/poison DR could smash? or fire, or static, or even freeze. It would shred things with the current armor system.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 17:35

#25

Draycos

I think you mean "gray Jedi", not "the dark side".

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 17:51

#26

Deleted-Knight

My thoughts

Nice idea, making all gear customizable essentially. +1 from me for what it's worth.

Question:
If someone invested all status orbs (except one) into increasing chance of status, what's the max?
fair->slight->good->almost guaranteed?
In my experience, the three explosions from brandish charges appear to be more effective at inducing status than 3 alchemer shots, despite both being "good chance".

Potential problems:
-Cutter with good chance of moderate stun: How can target break free from combos?
-Double stun blaster switching...
-Freezing catalyzer...
-Cursing antigua...
-Why would anyone choose alchemer or magnus if blaster can do better? Ricochet for kicks and giggles?

-Pure damage SS and flourish line will still dominate PvP due to their ridiculous amount of raw power.
-Pure status Pulsar will still dominate PvP due to their area-denial abilities + status annoyance.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 18:00

#27

Skepticraven

@Zeddy

One-time use orb recipes.

No, that doesn't fit the current mechanic for the current system especially for the 5* items. There is an initial upfront cost then the cost of crafting is significantly less. Going on the old system or spending CE on orbs (at current CE-crn prices) the recipe was approximately 25% of the cost. This cost is not repeated upon crafting a second. If you farm all the orbs, the recipe is up at 80% of the cost.

Some will say they never craft multiple of the same items. With excess of orbs, it is profitable to craft for profit either by selling the resulting weapon to other players (I've added quite a few kilowatt pulsars to the market) or even to a shop. It is also good to make stuff for friends.

With your suggested system, either there are going to be a whole ton more recipes or people are going to lose out on their investments for having all the recipes they currently have. The one-time use orb recipes does not make sense.

Additionally: Armors? Not good to have 2 different systems to confuse new players for crafting. (Also sanctuary for slightly more difficult to get armors)

I like the idea, but its far too late to even suggest something like this and expect it to be taken seriously. I don't see this idea getting a second look at by developers and for some reason I don't think you do either.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 18:13

#28

Cetren

-1

Like the idea, but you'd be getting rid of my entire arsenal

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 18:20

#29

Ltmauve

+-1

Well, I would like to be able to use a piercing trokia on gorgos. However,

First, One time use recipes? Would that mean we have to run through the clockworks looking for a treasure box drop or go to the hall of heroes every time we want to make an orb? I would think having these final orbs be crafted from the current star orbs would be fine for not being OP. (So a 4* elemental orb would take a heavy gear and 3 elite orbs, and maybe a few other materials)

Second, Fangel already mentioned this, but native abilities. After all, having + gremlin on my elemental gun is pretty useless. Would there be a special orb that some lines could take that sets the native ability versus? Could we have family bonus orbs (just one per family, crafted from the two-star

Third, how would statuses work? Would some weapons have a slot for a status orb (which would have to be crafted separately but only require one orb?) or would all status orbs just give elemental damage? Would statuses stick even after upgrade?

Fourth, would this apply to armor as well? So then the difference in defensive ability is the only real difference, and I can get my wolver coat with dmg+ in elemental, but the difference between cobalt and wolver lines is finally noticeable? So now each line requires a different number of orbs (so cobalt just requires two to get the damage types it blocks against, while magic requires two damage types and two status orbs) but gives noticeably different defense levels?

Fifth, in regards to split damage being OP, couldn't there just be a nerf to that in general, regardless of if this happens?

Sixth, how would descriptions/names work? There are 22 weapon lines * 4 damage types * 7 statuses (counting none) = 616 5* weapons. Not counting if you do the armor suggestion. I believe there are at least 71 distinct(under this system) armors by 12 ways to have two damage resistances * various numbers of status resistances. Oh, also some of them have family bonuses. Don't forget that. Huge amount of work here.

Seventh, having stuff start at 1* is a bit of a letdown, since we do want to get into usable weapons quickly. I would prefer keeping things starting at 2*.

However, note that this makes pretty much the entire crafting system right now entirely useless, and much as it might be nice it really won't happen without probably 99% of the player base behind it strongly, since it might be easier to make a new game.

Also note that alchemers, haze bombs, and anything with multiple status branches wouldn't transition well. You'd have to compensate people for having the status recipes.

Some suggestions for your names
Solid Orb /Hardened Orb /Welded Orb /Fused Orb (Normal)
Magic Orb /Elemental Orb /Miracle Orb /Divine Orb (Elemental)
Needle Orb /Spiked Orb /Fanged Orb /Impaling Orb (Piercing)
Dark Orb /Scary Orb /Sinister Orb /Dread Orb (Shadow)

Hot Orb /Fiery Orb /Blazing Orb /Volcanic Orb
Cold Orb /Freezing Orb /Blizzard Orb /Cyro Orb
Static Orb /Shocking Orb /Arcing Orb /Lightning Orb
Sick Orb /Posionous Orb /Virulent Orb /Plague Orb
Dazed Orb /Stunning Orb /Stagger Orb /Concussive Orb
Fiendish Orb /Cursed Orb /Darkfire Orb /Retribution Orb (maybe...
or it could just have a chance of failure and you lose everything except the item you were trying to upgrade)
(the reason I don't just have Cursed Orb here is because of my armor suggestion and having curse resistance)

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 18:27

#30

Isaac-Shepard

Krogmo coins

What do?

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 18:30

#31

Zeddy

@Neueragon
Family bonuses would just be gone.

Sentenza would be four consecutive shadow damage orbs and Obsidian Carbine would be one shadow damage orbs and three poison orbs.

@Fangel
Statuses would work just as damage types.

Let's say you make a calibur (1*). You add a piercing orb to it (2*), increasing its damage and converting the damage to piercing. Then you add an elemental orb (3*), increasing its damge and converting the entire damage to elemental.

Now you add a poison orb (4*), adding a slight chance of minor poison. Then you add a shock orb (5*), opting to increase status strength. This converts the poison to slight chance of moderate shock.

Also, you would only be able to upgrade a status' aspect twice. Minor/Moderate/Strong, Slight/Fair/Good.

Heating stays the same. Full inspect would just show the weapon's damage and status off. If you see a 5* weapon with no status, you can be pretty certain they went all out on damage orbs. If you see fair chance of strong status, you know they went all out on status orbs.

@Cradarc
-Targets wouldn't break free of cutter stun, which is perfect for a sword that can do nothing but assassinate single targets. All of the targets comrades, however, would probably help out since cutter has little to no crowd control capabilities.
-We have a million sources of stun already. There's stun vials, drakon's firebolt, shieldbashing, Callahan, Stagger Storm, Irontech, BAB. All of those largely suck except in very specialized situations. Even stun vials now that they no longer inflict knockback. If you maxed out stun on the blasters you're switching they'd be weak as all get-out, damage-wise, effectively making them single-target stagger storm. Is Stagger Storm OP?
-Would be a welcome addition. I've been asking for it for a while. God forbid Catalyzer becomes an actually good weapon rather than a somewhat usable one.
-Would be able to curse yourself about 12 times faster than Gran Faust ever could.
-A system like this would force the different weapon types to be balanced against eachother. Callahan has 'gotten away' with being underpowered for a while because it was one of the only two available piercing guns. That will end pretty soon, regardless of whether my suggestion gets taken into account or not.

-Flourish, maybe. Sealeds? The second they stop being split damage, they'll be largely inferiour to Hammer as far as Lockdown is concerned.
-If you could name me a status pulsar that's somehow worse than Polaris, I would love to see it. Nothing in this suggestion could possibly make Lockdown any worse than it already is.

@Skepticraven

I'll get to armours. (Spoilers: it's the same system.)

If HoH was removed, and recipes were generalized, consumable recipes would basically give infinite incentive to hunt for recipes at Basil. I think it could be quite delightful.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 19:23

#32

Skepticraven

@Zeddy

If HoH was removed, and recipes were generalized, consumable recipes would basically give infinite incentive to hunt for recipes at Basil. I think it could be quite delightful.

So increase the number of recipes in the game by a whole lot. Got it. I think we found the new (additional) crown sink. Also by this method I never needed my blackhawk recipe for my sentenza - just bind a shadow orb to a silversix. Thanks for making my old recipe pretty much worthless. Not to mention the other 20-30 or so other recipes that I no longer would need.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 20:01

#33

Zeddy

That's pretty much how it would work, yes.

Your 20-30 or so recipes could turn into orb recipes and make themselves useful that way.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 20:11

#34

Skepticraven

Doubtful.

Assuming you mean that each "orb based recipe" is considered unlocked once used... Those 20-30 or so recipes were others that would be useless. Just pointing to the alchemer family there are 5*3 useless recipes right there.

Assuming you mean that each orb is a 1-time use consumed items... That increases the repeat cost of crafting somewhere between 25-80% (further killing chances of new players making the transition to end-game). Although it doesn't happen much in the weapons at higher levels - there is a lot of re-crafting the same stuff in armors (specifically the sanctuary items).

Neither I am in favor of.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 20:13

#35

Ltmauve

-1 now

I'm sorry, ONE USE RECIPES!? Let me see, 25,000 to upgrade each of your 4* weapons to 5*? That's rather ridiculous. I would rather have these orbs drop in the clockworks (so two generic and one special) or be crafted from generic orbs, even with ridiculously low drop rates.

Also, your comment about a cursing antigua being able to get you cursed a dozen times as fast is not true. Self-curse only occurs on charge attacks. The bullets would just have a ridiculously low rate of curse.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 00:22

#36

Neueragon

well then...

first of all, why is everyone complaining about one-time recipes? they basically still allow you to craft stuff like before. did you ever craft the same 5* item again? most likely no. if yes, you prolly had a lot more than 25kcr at that time anyways.
OP status? not really, if you think about it, those weps with very good statuses would have little damage. imagine a flourish that does only about 150 dmg in T3 against beast. you could make very safe, but weak weps, great for anyone struggling in the game.
balancing? if anything is OP or UP, OOO just has to tweak the base weapon class, therefore, faster balancing thats easier for both the players and the devs.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 02:11

#37

Neueragon

@Zeddy, wall of text incoming

the statuses still bug me, if you look at current swords (which is the main status inconsistency) there are different types of swords and different types of infliction:
sword:
fast
medium
slow
status:
on any hit
on last hit
on charge
you can easily categorize each weapon in those categories, though some might get a bit... wonky.
lets look at a few swords:
brandishes, medium sword with status on charge. it has a good chance of inflicting strong status, which is not too OP if you look at just the status (the damage is another thing). but if you were trying to make a now-brandish status on an after-brandish, not possible.
triglav. slow sword with status on second hit and charge. for the second hit the infliction chance is meh, which is easily possible with the current system.
gran faust. slow sword with status on second hit and charge, just like triglav. but heres the catch, its curse is far stronger than currently possible and even more common than the status in triglav. curse will be a pain to balance.
dread venom striker. fast sword with status on any hit and charge. slight chance of strong status, wich isnt too hard for the current system. its damage is lowish too, which makes sense when you put all orbs for status.
status flourishes. fast sword with slight-fair chance of moderate status on any hit and charge. no problem to make with the current system.
fang of vog. slow-ish sword with status on any hit and charge. good change of strong status. right now this is another sword incapable of being made in the current system.
right here you see some problems with freely applying statuses. I would categorise the swords and then allow certain ones to "double-use" the status orb, allowing for two points to be allocated for chance or strength of the status for each orb. this would allow orbs to be balanced better, considering that slow swords and maybe swords with status on charge only would still get a good ability to status stuff. some swords like FoV or GF, which have the self-status as a disadvantage to better status could do this too.
considering curse, i would only allow it on slow weapons (sorry, no curse cutter) while still allowing the double orb use. I would also add at least a 4* orb too. the catch? every curse wep has increased charge and chance to self-curse

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 02:59

#38

Neueragon

@Zeddy, continued stuffs

now then, swords are out of the way, now to guns:
again, we have several attack types, but all guns can inflict status on their normal attack, while having a better chance to status in on the charge.
we have the following gun types:
two-shot
three-shot
six-shot
the distinction is fairly linear, if you count autoguns as two-shot.
first of all, every gun except for plague can only inflict moderate status, that would account for 2 orbs for the status.
the status chances vary between slight and good, meaning up to three orbs.
looking at this, you could implement a similar method of status balancing, such as allowing 2-shot guns to get double out of their orbs. autoguns should be made an exception, considering that each of their bullets can inflict the status, basically rendering them far better for statusing than even alchemers. getting your annoying shock-polaris would take all 4 orbs to be shock, which basically means your damage is a lot less compared to supernova.
curse on gun? yes please, but again I would limit it to two-shot guns (yes, even autoguns, ill get to that) curse would again increase charge and give chance for self-curse. autoguns would get some special treatment, as they would be allowed to get curse orbs, but not double-use them, giving them a similar curse chance if you use it like a calhallan. I would not give curse to alchemers, but thats my own opinion.

PS to swords, I would make calibur inflict status on any hit and charge, while also not allowing double orb use, to set it further apart from brandishes.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 03:17

#39

Neueragon

@Zeddy, final stuffs

swords, guns, now what? yup, bombs.
so, we got several bombs which sometimes have HUGE differences in their attacks. so I will try my best to group them:
blast bombs
vaporizer bombs
multihit bombs
blast bombs would include current blast bombs, DBB and vortexes. vaporizers are self-explanatory. multihit bombs are things like shard bombs and DR, which can hit more than once per bomb.
as before, there will be weps with normal orb use and weps with double orb use. blast bombs will be double-use, as they only hit once and they cant reapply their status till they are put down again, vaporizers and multiit bombs will be single orb use (people would rightfully rage about a vaporizer which could RELIABLY inflict strong status on anyone). blast bombs could use curse orbs, but maybe not double-use them. vaporizers wouldnt be able to use curse orbs, same for multihit bombs.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 07:48

#40

Kathrine-Dragon

I'm going to say no to this. It makes crafting even more difficult. Besides that, it doesn't quite make sense to have a whole new range of weapons just like everything else. Sure, it's simpler on paper but in reality finding orbs is tough enough already. And then there would be no stun or poison wielders besides the few that enjoy poison. What about event items? Do we get new orbs just for that Sure it balances by sacrificing damage for status but in the process it breaks the game by throwing in totally unnecessary weaponry along with fixing near nothing.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 08:03

#41

Neueragon

@kathrine-dragon

let me adress each of your points:
1. it doesnt make sense to have new weapons??? you are basically saying that the upcoming gunner update is bad, also you are saying that SK should basically be fixed as it is now with weapons
2. what makes you think crafting will be more difficult? maybe those special orbs will be easily obtainable or maybe you can craft the orbs themselves with mats.
3.no stun or poison wielder? again, what makes you think that? I would gladly make a maxed poison calhallan to deal with pesky menders and how about a DBB-type bomb that reliably deals stun? honestly, i would take those without a thought over fire themed stuff for example.
4. event items, thats a tricky one. I wouldnt touch the honour blades, they are good as they are now IMO, but the obsidian stuff and the hammer would most likely just turn into their counterparts after this, while other people could craft them too now.
5. unnecessary weapons break the game? pffft, tell me that cautery sword breaks the game.
6. not fixing anything? first of all, thats debatable, secondly, know patches from OOO that didnt fix anything? I know plenty.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 08:11

#42

Skepticraven

@Neueragon

I've had 5 BTB's at once before. Why? I had the orbs and tokens - and it was profitable to make them (and sell them to a stranger). Also, DA/GF are sometimes profitable to craft multiple times to sell at the AH. Just because you don't craft 5* stuff multiple times, doesn't mean other people don't. I sometimes even craft multiple ones if I wanna punch more UVs on it - so that I keep the one that is semi-good and have no risk on the new one. Tack on another 40kcrns in crafting cost and its no longer worth it.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 08:19

#43

Neueragon

@skepticraven

you brought up some good points, but first of all, you stated that it would further increase the cost for people to reach endgame. if you consider a vanguard to be at that stage, I dont think he is already recrafting stuff, especially if that person hasnt been vanguard for that long.
on another note, people actually buy 5* gear from AH?
PS, the recipes dont necessarily have to be single-use IMO, I was just bringing up points why they would not be as bad if they were

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 08:24

#44

Agentz

BLARGH

Would this apply to armor, helmets and shields? ~Z

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 08:46

#45

Neueragon

@agentz

check comment number... something, first this is only for weps, but it will most likely also be implemented for other gear, but I would wait with the discussion for that till this idea ripened A little bit.
btw, I just noticed I commented about twice as much as zeddy on this thread ;D

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 09:05

#46

Skepticraven

@Neueragon

if you consider a vanguard to be at that stage, I dont think he is already recrafting stuff, especially if that person hasnt been vanguard for that long.

Sanctuary alchemy machine. For all those with snarby, I bet you had skolver/vog cub first. Yes, it doesn't apply to weapons because they don't differentiate at high levels - but armor is where people would really lose out. Also I mentioned my pre-vanguard crafting of kilowatt pulsars for profit. I must have made like 50 of them (to sell in AH) to farm the CE for my 5* equip.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 09:58

#47

Zeddy

Swords
For any given sword, chance of infliction is increased by 1 on the charge attack unless otherwise stated.
- Levi: Calibur + 4 x normal orb
- CIV: Deprecated. Existing owners would get a Calibur + 2 elemental + 2 x freeze (2/2, 3/2 on the cahrge)
- Flourish: Flourish + 4 x piercing orbs
- Status Flourish: Flourish + 2 x piercing + 2 x status/li>
- BTB: Thorn blade + 4 x piercing.
- Brandish: Special-rule sword line. Combos don't inflict status, but in return status strength as well as chance is increased by 1. Elemental + 3 x status (2/2, making 3/3 on the charge), Acheron is 4 x shadow. Starts with 1 explosion at 1*, gains 1 explosion per upgrade.
- Sealed sword: Deprecated. Charge attack from 1*-4* will only have the one ghost blade which increases in range for each upgrade. 5* upgrade adds the triple blade.
- DA: Sealed + 4 * elemental
- Gran Faust: Sealed + 3 * shadow + curse. (1/1, 2/1 on the charge)
- Sudaruska, Triglav: Special-rule sword line. Status only applied at second hit of the combo and charge. Also, the sword is slower than sealed. As compensation for these factors, status strength is boosted +1 for both hits and chance is boosted by +1 for the charge in addition. Troika + 3 normal + 1 status. (1/2 on the combo, 2/2 on the charge.)
- Fang of Vog: Special line. Any applied statuses are self-inflicted on the charge, but status strength is increased by +1 on the charge. 2 x Elemental + 2 x status. (2/2, 3/3 charge)
- DVS: Cutter + 1 x normal, 3 x poison (1/3, 2/3 charge)
- WHB: A little bit deprecated. Cutter + 4 x normal. Interruption on the charge would arise naturally from increased damage. WHB and DVS would have the same speed now.
- 5* Winmillion: Spur + 4 x normal.
- Warmaster Rocket Hammer: Special weapon obtained from completing Crimson Hammer. Uncraftable.
Guns
- Valiance: Blaster + 4 x normal
- Callahan: Magnus + 1 x piercing + 3 status (3/1, 3/2 charge)
- Iron Slug: Magnus + 4 x normal
- Nova/Umbra: Alchemer + 4 x damage
- Magma/Hail/Storm: Alchemer + 1 x elemental + 3 x status (2/2, 3/2 charge). Only the big projectile counts as a charge bullets, all the charge ricochets have 2/2.
- AP/Sentenza: Antigua + 4 x damage
- Obsidian: Antigua + 1 x shadow + 3 x poison (2/2, 3/2 charge). Only tentacle counts as a charge bullet. Preceding volley only has 2/2
- Blitz: Needle + 4 x piercing
- Plague: Needle + 2 x piercing + 2 x poison. (1/2, 1/3 charge)
- Pepper: Has chance instead of status strength increase. Autogun + 2 x normal + 2 fire. (1/2, 2/2 on the charge.)
- Biohazard: Catalyzer + 1 x shadow + 3 x poison. (3/1, 3/2 charge.)
- Neutralizer: Catalyzer + 4 x normal.
- Polaris: Special-rule gun. Expanded shots as well as charge gets status strength increased by 1, but unexpanded shots have chance decreased by 1. This means that a Pulsar with only one status orb cannot inflict status at all with unexpanded shots. Pulsar + 1 x elemental + 3 x shock. (2/1 regular shots, 3/2 expanded/charge)
- Supernova: Pulsar + 4 x normal.
Bombs
- Nitro: Blast Bomb + 4 x normal
- Heavy Decon: Deprecated. Existing owners get a Blast Bomb + 3 x elemental.
- DBB: Frag Bomb + 4 x piercing..
- BAB: Special-rule line. As a slow-walk bomb, Nuke-line bombs get status increased by 1. Even if no staus is applied, slight chance of minor stun is added by default. Nuke + 4 x normal (1/1 stun).
- Irontech Destroyer: Deprecated. Existing owners get a Nuke + 3 x normal + 1 x stun (2/2).
- Shard/Crystal/Splinter/DM: Shard Bomb + 4 x damage
- Sun Shards/Shocking Salt: Deprecated. Shard Bomb + 1 x damage + 3 x status (2/2)
- Graviton Vortex: Vortex + 4 x shadow
- Obsidian/EV: Slow-walk bomb, status increased by 1/1 Vortex + 1 x damage + 3 status (3/3)
- Haze Bombs: Special rule line. Every point put into damage strength reduces radius. A max strength haze will be no larger than proto bomb. Haze bomb + Elemental + 3 x status (3/1). Yes, this opens up for moderate and even strong status hazes, but the haze will need to linger over their target for longer as the chance per tick is severely lessened.
- Dark Retribution: Special weapon obtained from completing Crimson Hammer. Uncraftable. (Let's face it, shock-DR would be ridiculously OP for everywhere.)

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 11:11

#48

Neueragon

@Zeddy

seems ok to me, though i am a little bit confused, did you just list the current conversions from now to after, or did you just mention all possible combinations? i think and hope its the first one. if it is, are there any special exceptions in the weapons?
also, does each weapon have to have a damage orb? because I havent seen an example from you without, while it should be possible, at the expense of even less damage and no special damage.
also, now that statuses are out of the way more or less (I still think curse is somewhat UP), lets get to the other part, damage. first of all, I assume damage is regulated as adding fractions or the total damage and not flat numbers, which should make balancing a piece of cake. secondly, how much would an orb add base (orbless) damage? 1/5? 1/10?

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 11:40

#49

Deleted-Knight

Zeddy, - Nobody would use a

Zeddy,

- Nobody would use a single-target sword in a crowd, but stun cutter essentially guarantees a kill in 1v1 close-range fight.
- Likewise, your "single target staggerstorm" happens to flinch and do damage while keeping them in stun lock. So target will have a very hard time moving or attacking while repeatedly taking damage. Obviously outclassed by bombs in a crowd, but a gunner in a crowd is pretty much screwed anyways.
Note that according to your previous comment about mist bomb mechanics, staggerstorm ticks once per second. A skilled gunslinger can spit out more than one blaster bullet per second.
- Catalyzer bullets are slow, so I guess a freezing cata won't be any worse than pulsar. It would be such a troll weapon in Lockdown though.
- I'm pretty sure chance of giving curse >> chance of receiving curse. There would be little incentive to use curse if the chance of being crippled is barely smaller than chance of crippling enemy.

Tue, 11/05/2013 - 12:01

#50

Zeddy

Those were just which weapons you'd get for having a particular old-system weapon in your arsenal. There'd be nothing stopping you from using 4 status orbs. It'd end up with a low amount of normal damage.

I don't find the specific amounts important, but then again I do like messing about with numbers.

Let's look at Calibur.

In the current system, Calibur has 40 base damage at depth 1 and each upgrade increases this damage by 7.5%. This is multiplicative, so Levi has 107.5%^3 = 124.2% damage or 49-ish damage on the first hit.

Now, there is no direct status equivalents of Levi, so let's look at some other weapons.

In the old system, Nova Driver has 15% more damage than Magma Driver, more or less. If Magma used two less damage orbs than Nova, that'd add up. 107.5%^2 = 115.6%, but in this system it uses 3. Seeing how the status on the charge projectile gets buffed in the new system, we might be okay with that? I don't think we would, to be honest. It'd be an increase of over 24%. So let's rethink this.

Assuming we want 3 orbs of damage to repsent ~15%, we could have each damage orb add a linear 6% of damage compared to the base. We'd end up with values very close to what we already have. Observe:

Calibur, 40 base damage. Calibur + 4 x 6% = Calibur + 124% = 49.6

So Levi blade is pretty close. Let's check out how Magma and Nova fare. Guns are a little more difficult because they had a universal buff back when the Roarmulus guns came out. Its base damage is not a simple integer like with Calibur. Still, it's a little something like this:

Prismatech, 26 base damage. Prisma + 4 x 6% = 32.

And sure enough, if you look at the tables for Prisma Driver, its raw damage (add 5 to damage vs constructs), is 33. 33 / 124% = 26.6. This fits.

Magma Driver would only be using one orb. 26.6 + 6% = 28.19. 33/28.19 = 117%.

If you look at Magma Driver on the wiki, you'll see it has 28 base damage (23 + 5) at depth 1.

So a flat 6% damage per damage orb would balance out nicely. Simply keep the 2* base damage for the new 1* versions.

@Cradarc

Okay, so you made a useful weapon out of cutter. I get the impression you're trying to highlight a flaw with my suggestion but I just don't see one. Is cutter being useful a flaw? Is a weapon that is only usable for single targets somehow overpowered? Is it overpowered compared to Blitz? To current Brandishes that would instakill said singletarget and everything close to them instead of stunlocking them?

Search

Just make every weapon do everything already