The worst items in the game
Vie, 11/13/2015 - 09:00
Hello community!
I was wondering what you all think are the worst items in spiral knights, as I am creating a new knight with what people think are the worst items in the game. (I know that no item is bad, but just the items which aren't immensely strong such as brandishes or shivermist buster) So the rules are:
-No gear that doesn't go up to 5 star. (Sorry winmillion!)
-Must include your opinion on what the worst:
-Helmet
-Armour
-Sword
-Gun
-Bomb
-Nothing that is currently unavailable or available for a short amount of time (e.g. tortofist)
-Nothing which requires real world currency to recieve.
Thats basically it. The items that get the most hate for I will use on the new knight, because yolo right?
Vie, 11/13/2015 - 11:58
#2
@Bopp
Interesting, but I probably wont use almirian crusader just because it's from shadow lair. It's still bad! xD
Vie, 11/13/2015 - 12:37
#3
other two then
That's understandable. Fortunately I gave you two runners-up for bad armors.
Vie, 11/13/2015 - 21:55
#4
-Helmet
-Armour
In terms of general being garbage, probably cobalt though in many situations ancient plate armor is much much worse.
Breaking the rules, non-black kat armor is the most cost ineffective and so worst in a way. 5000 * 6 = 30,000 energy, not counting rads.
The worst armor design wise I'd argue to be bombastic demo. It offers damage med and ice resistance, which means that it's very much outclassed by black kat, as well as even mercurial demo.. but it doesn't look, to the layman, to be a bad deal. In effect, it acts as a trap that destroys bombers loadouts.
-Sword
Flamberge is truly despicable. Fire isn't typically strong against anything that it's effective against, so it's basically a worse version of final flourish. Actually, I'm not sure fire being strong could even save it.. but if there was like, some sort of common piercing weak ice cube? Maybe? But there just isn't.
-Gun
Probably sentenza, since it's (almost) just flat out worse than obsidian carbine. Disregarding that factor, biohazard.
-Bomb
Any of the outclassed bombs would fit this. Those are specifically the pure dark/piercing shard bombs and graviton vortex.
Vie, 11/13/2015 - 22:12
#5
Helmet, Armour
Azure stuff is definitely the flat-out weakest armour/shield the game has to offer, stat-wise.
However, since you never defined 'worst', I submit the three dozen or so gunner update armour sets, out of which three paths have any reason to exist. They're excessive.
Sword
The worst 5* sword is Cold Iron Vanquisher. Flamberge may not be the must effective, but it's still a flourish, capable of rapid, wide-reaching swings and with a chance to set things on fire so you can get some use out of it in a beast arena where there sometimes are constructs or slimes. Cold Iron Vanquisher is just a weaker Leviathan Blade with an unnoticable bonus against the most damage-spongy family in the game.
Gun
Neutralizer. The neutral damage of the catalyzer family has never been any good, and moving the main focus of the gun from charges to regular shots pretty much destroyed Neutralizer. Biohazard is still fairly usable.
Bomb
Deadly Shard Bomb.
Sáb, 11/14/2015 - 07:19
#6
something to discuss here
In general, I would rather have Azure Guardian's status wasteland than Almirian Crusader's fire penalty and curse bonus. I would rather have Almirian Crusader's damage protections, but those aren't worth as much to me.
Sáb, 11/14/2015 - 12:44
#7
@Zeddy
Yea, I forgot about cold iron vanquisher. I don't really think it's sizeably worse than flamberge though, since they both suffer from being straight up outclassed by weapons that do the same thing but better.
I feel like neutralizer and deadly shard bomb at least have normal going for them, so maybe they could be kind of OK on rare occasions. Like-
phantamos/nova driver
arcana/umbra driver
deadly shard bomb
So your goal is to kill the last few enemies that are left over after your team member vortex+slugs them. While your team mate is messing about with the vortex, you could plausibly be dropping deadly shard bombs. There are generally better weapons for this purpose, but the shard bomb at least has a unique mechanic that could make it preferable. Neutralizer and biohazard are both pretty much on the same level but I'd rather have normal than shadow I guess.
Sáb, 11/14/2015 - 13:09
#8
outclassing
Just because item A unambiguously outclasses item B, that does not mean that item B is terrible. Because another item, C, might be even worse. Some examples:
* Chaos outclasses Mad Bomber, but Mad Bomber is still much better than Almirian Crusader. In fact, if Chaos suddenly vanished from the game, Mad Bomber would return to being one of the most desirable armors.
* Leviathan outclasses CIV, but I'd still rather have CIV as my only sword than Furious Flamberge. (Probably. That's not easy.)
* Obsidian Carbine outclasses Sentenza, and OC isn't an especially powerful shadow gun either, but Sentenza is quite serviceable.
Sáb, 11/14/2015 - 14:03
#9
I kind of disagree.
If item A directly outclasses item B where item C which is worse than item B but does something differently, item C can still see the light of day whereas there is no case where item B is ever the best option. Ergo item B is the "worst" weapon out of the three, because A > B but A and B cannot be compared to C as C is something else altogether.
Consider the example of glacius, acheron and obsidian edge for purely damage.
Acheron > Obsidian edge > glacius, as glacius doesn't let enemies ride the charge.
But glacius cannot truly be compared like this, because it does something totally different than either acheron or obsidian edge- elemental damage. In that case, obsidian edge is the worst for damage. Similarly glacius does freeze as opposed to fire, so even though combuster out-damages it, it can still find use on that front. If you consider a sword like CIV however, there just isn't a good situation where it would be best to bring over leviathan. Since it cannot see use, it must be the worst.
--
I'm not considering mad bomber/royal jelly for this because those are redundant and really need future content/patches (that may be canceled?) to function, and have had those future patches promised at some point.
Sáb, 11/14/2015 - 14:33
#10
understood, but
Yes, that's a reasonable criterion. It's the basis for Krakob's polls for community equipment ratings. But it leads to some...irregularities.
* Suppose, for the sake of argument, that we have discovered a long-lost sibling of Levi/CIV called Dolt Siren Vanisher. It is completely identical to Leviathan Blade, except that it does 1 less damage on every attack. So DSV is unambiguously outclassed by Leviathan Blade. Which is better: DSV or Furious Flamberge? Your argument suggests Furious, but I'd say DSV.
* What if DSV did 10 less damage than Leviathan? Would DSV still be better than Furious?
* What if DSV did 20 less damage than Leviathan? Because that's pretty much what CIV is, if you ignore the undead+3. And by the way it's still about 20 more damage than Furious (against neutral targets).
In summary: CIV and Furious differ in so many ways (strong charge vs. strong first stroke, etc.) that it's an apples-to-oranges comparison, to be resolved differently by each player. But I'm not sure that bringing in another kind of apple helps.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 00:09
#11
Which is better: DSV or Furious Flamberge? Your argument suggests Furious, but I'd say DSV.
The thing is, the question of the thread was "Which is worst".
There are many different way to calculate this, be it "Which is the most outclassed" or even taking the practical approach of "out of these two weapons, which one wouldn't you want?". It depends how you want to classify "worst".
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 06:23
#12
yes
The thing is, the question of the thread was "Which is worst".
Yes. That's what we're talking about. If you're trying to choose between CIV and Furious, and I can convince you that CIV is better than Furious, then Furious is the worst.
There are many different way to calculate this
Yes. That's what the second-to-last sentence in my post #10 says.
To clarify: I'm not even arguing that Furious is worse than CIV. I don't feel strongly on that issue. I'm just trying to point out that this outclassed-by-another-weapon criterion can, in theory, force you into choices that don't make sense. Similar paradoxes occur in all voting systems; see Arrow's impossibility theorem.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 10:45
#13
I feel like adding to this I guess
-Helmet: Azure Guardian Helmet. This one is pretty simple, it's the only armor set that doesn't come with status resistances, which is by far the only thing that matters from a defensive stand-point on armor. Although Almirian Crusader is absolute crap as well, I find that the Shadow resistance is an exception to what I just said, and it does make up for it in this case, as most Shadow-heavy monsters are fast yet hit surprisingly hard. However, this is coming from someone who lags and can not effectively avoid all the Shadow damage that gets thrown around like candy on Halloween. If you've got a decent connection, then Almirian Crusader is by far the worst armor set.
-Armour: Azure Guardian Armor. Same points as Azure Guardian Helmet.
-Shield: Royal Jelly Shield. You didn't put a shield option, but the worst shield IMHO is Celestial Shield, since it lacks both statuses and Normal defense, easily putting it at the bottom. But since you say nothing that must be bought with real money, then my vote goes to Royal Jelly Shield. Yeah, Aegis is bad because it doesn't have any status resistances while Royal Jelly does resist a fairly common status, but I honestly think Aegis's massive normal defense makes up for it here. As almost every enemy in the game does Normal damage, even in Tier 3 Elite, it's a very important defense to have on a shield to keep it from breaking. This doesn't go for armor because you take like half a pip less damage for wearing Azure Guardian over something else, but for shields this is very significant, so I think Aegis pulls out on top over Royal Jelly Shield.
-Sword: Fang of Vog. It's so slow that you can't effectively triple hit monsters without getting hit yourself unless you have somewhat high ASI on it. Its charge, while being basically the strongest in the game, is suicide because even with +20 fire defense you still lose like half your health if you burn yourself, which is a very common occurrence. Its damage is lower than most swords despite it being split for some reason, and the uncommon chance to burn on hit doesn't make up for it either.
-Gun: Neutralizer. I would say Biohazard, but Biohazard still has great niche uses in areas heavy with healers. Neutralizer is just awful everywhere.
-Bomb: Deadly Splinter Bomb. This is a tough throw between Deadly Shard Bomb and Deadly Splinter Bomb. In the end, I think Deadly Splinter Bomb is worse, because with the exception of the likes of Trojans and Chromalisks, most fiends and beasts just outright ignore Deadly Splinter Bomb and it misses entirely. Deadly Shard Bomb can at least be put to effective use against zombies, gremlins, and anything that Deadly Splinter Bomb is effective against, as well as others, making it simply better in more situations. So for this one, Deadly Splinter Bomb.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 14:15
#14
I do get what you're saying. Lets say we compared a strike needle (that cannot become a blitz), blitz needle, and neutralizer. It's hard to say that strike needle is worse than neutralizer, even though strike needle is directly inferior to blitz needle. If I had to choose between the two I'd almost certainly choose the strike needle for many levels.
However, assuming that you can craft multiple of these and that they all cost relatively the same to obtain, there's never a reason to craft or use the strike needle, which means that it's the worst value proposition, and that worldview fits the scenario of weapon choosing much better. Even if deadly shard bomb is weaker than splinter bomb, there's much more of a reason to craft deadly shard bomb because there are at least some (more) scenarios where you'd want to use deadly shard bomb.
If the OP just wants to create the worst possible 5* knight, they should go something like full ancient (or ironmight, since full ancient would require beating FSC 20-30 times), wild hunting blade, neutralizer, deadly shard bomb.. which is fairly close to what Zeddy posted.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 15:56
#15
yep
Yes, we understand each other. There are just multiple ways to slice it, as Hexzyle said.
Ooh, I forgot about Ironmight Plate. That's really bad. But I still think that Furious Flamberge is worse than Wild Hunting Blade. Cheers.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 17:12
#16
We all know how petty this is but want something to talk about
I agree. But if the OP wants the weakest loadout then they would want something that loses value with plate mail. If they brought cold iron vanquisher, they'd be able to charge it. if they brought flamberge they'd at least have a flourish that could punish fiends and knock light enemies away, giving the player a slight advantage. Wild hunting blade has one of the worst charges and relies heavily on speed for its normal attacks, which is why I chose it over the two worse swords. If the OP was using cobalt then I'd probably say cold iron vanquisher, though a case could be made for flamberge.
Ancient plate set would really double down on defenses and might actually be better in many ways but would lower their movement speed, making bomb charges awful for them in addition to forcing them to rely on the poor damage of neutralizer. The negative movement speed would also make it harder to get out of the way when using wild hunting blade.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 17:59
#17
worst weapon loadout
Yes, you've synergized the weakness of Ancient Plate well. But if we're going for worst knight then consider having all weapons of the same damage type --- say, Furious Flamberge, Savage Tortofist, Deadly Splinter Bomb. In contrast, Wild Hunting Blade can inflict decent damage against anything.
Dom, 11/15/2015 - 20:53
#18
I mean yea but that's the obvious thing to do and I was thinking worst all around where that was cheating. Like worst on their own merits, not on the fact that you're using them incorrectly.
Also furious flamberge wouldn't belong on that since the fire would aid you greatly against construct/slime.
Lun, 11/16/2015 - 00:33
#19
I don't know so much about 'greatly'. The fire is only the effect of getting lightly brushed by Ash of Agni.
And even AoA is pretty likely to inflict.
Lun, 11/16/2015 - 09:52
#20
...
Helmet
Armor
Royal Jelly Set is outclassed by it's "sidegrade" due to the fact that the Sleep status resistance is now totally pointless.
Sword
Triglav is a powerful sword yes but you can get the same damage from a Sudaruska. The Trig's problem is it's status, as a sword that is part of the guardian lineup it should give reliable control and knockback of the enemy. Freeze prevents that from happening, so you are left with a sword designed for strong knockback that deals a status that prevents knockback.
Gun
Neutralizer. As fun as this weapon is to use the Gunner Update did not help it at all with the mechanic change. It breaks freeze, deals random knockback, and by the time you get enough tags on a target your team has already killed the monster.
Bomb
BAB. Another very fun weapon but the massive penalties it places on a knight charging it make it horrible. Short of the amazing knockback this weapon has no upsides. At least the Deadly shard bomb allows you the speed to dodge attacks....
Shield
Aegis.... just a bad shield in general. The only place it can shine is in a status free pierce damage environment, unfortunately Lumbers and Lichens tend to patrol these levels making the Royal Jelly and Ironmight plate Shield more viable.
Lun, 11/16/2015 - 10:48
#21
well
I was generally looking for what people think are the worst from each gear type, not the worst possible loadout XD
But worst possible loadout could be fun :p
Mié, 11/18/2015 - 17:40
#22
Here I go:
I wanted to instanty dash out 'cobalt series' when you mentioned the worst, but then I would say: hey it is not perfect, but is it really THE worst, or do I just repeat what peoples on this forum spread around? So I took my time and went through the list of gear again in the wiki. Here are my last choices that i would want to be stuck somewhere:
Armor: Almiran Crusader Armor.
Well, this was definitelly a hard decision, since actually each armor is useful in a certain situation. Although there are better options for Azure Guardian, the amor itselfe is still viable and offers nice normal defense. If I would be stucked with this amor, it would not cause the world to end for me. Jelly Armor is not really superior, but it also offers no drawbacks... so my choice went to Crusader for its fire debuff. I would not be too unhappy with this choice, but amongst the other armors, this one is the least appreaciated for me. But only barely.
Helmet: Almiran Crussader Helmet.
For the same reasons as above. I also do not see this one as horrrible. It is simply barely the one I would like fewest. Barely.
Gun: Neutralizer!
This one is easy. The damage output of catalyzers is crap, tbh, and between the catalyzers there is one that can deal at least a status. Neutralyzers fails in both... Oh and I am saying this as previously dedicated Biohazard user, but after that gunner update, my catas are gaining dust for so long untill I forgot why I lost love to them and so I dig them out once more for nostalgic reasons. But a short depth with the new mechanic is enough to remind me why it was collecting dust - and it instantly will do that again after mentioned short depth.
Bomb: Shard bombs, the green 'pure damage' version. Will I check it up for you? No, it does not deseve this affection.
Shard bombs simply push enemies around without doing anything else. The knock back is far below the one of a BAB to make the knockback be the reason to pick it and the damage... no, my shivamist explosion deals more damage than Ele Shards. And if this is not correct, then it will be correct after I switched to another weapon and nuked everything with a needle.
And I gave the green one and the yellow one a try, but the green one just causes the robots i fought off with to shoot lazers into my face since they just get moved by a random shard explosion a tile aside so that my previous safe spot is not in line of the incoming laser wave. I cant say something about the black versions though, since I never tested these (and probably never will).
Sword: Wild Hunting blade!
Well, it was kinda easy because i like the other mechanics and only th cutters not because they can not interrupt an enemy when I attack. I actually own a 4* poision cutter and I think it is nice if I feel like hipster around. But beeing stuck with something without knockback or status would be a nightmare.
Battle Sprite: Seraphynx.
I like empowering aspects and sera is the sprirte that does not offer it. I am myselfe using a Maskeraith. I choosed it from the beginning - I knew what I wanted by the ingame descriptions and I never did regret that choice.
But to be honest, seraphinx is just barely worse than drakon in my favorism list, but after all it is still on the last spot, so: vote goes to Sera.
Battle Sprite's Perk: Piercing defense.
Wolvers and Jellies are just too easy to dodge and all other perks are useful somewhere.
Shield: Dragon Scale Shield
Pheew, hard question... Atually I like all shields. After checking the shields again, I am pendeling between DSS and Jelly Shield. But in the end, my choice would go to DSS, because I am actually valuing normal defense on a Shield pretty high and though DSS serves good in C42, it is still the last one I would want to have as a 'general purpose' Shield like the APS is for me.
The last liked pickups: Sleep Vial, Robo, Stun Vial, Shock barrier
In that order; starting with the most disliked one. I did name 4 because you eventually fill all 4 slots on your clockwork missions.
Lun, 11/23/2015 - 10:14
#23
Seraphynx is far from the worst sprite lol. It offers the valkyrie shield, which lets you go up and charge attack whatever you feel like without worrying about taking damage from bubbles and stray bullets. Heart attack is also a seriously good skill to use in areas where health is otherwise non-existent.
Mar, 12/08/2015 - 10:01
#24
Grand Tortoise I'm flagging as worst shield. Outclassed in almost every way by APS, IPS, and VPS. :(
The Aegis actually has credibility in the fact that it's roughly 40,000 crowns cheaper than all other shields. (25,000 crowns cheaper than Heater Shield)
The Grant Tortoise however, is the opposite.
Lun, 12/14/2015 - 15:22
#25
Wow i got the Wild hunting
Wow i got the Wild hunting blade and the Cold Iron Vanquisher as my first 2 5* swords too
Lun, 12/14/2015 - 18:48
#26
@Holy-Nightmare
Hey you. I see you mentioned my BAB there. dont diss my bab.
Slowness aside, it's amazing for certain areas. While the Nitronome may be better in most situations, having a BAB in the unknown passage is great. With enough CTR and cooperation from teammates, it essentially makes a shield that does decent damage and knocks stuff out. Worst bomb by far is the pure shadow damage shard bomb, the Dark Retribution outclasses it in all ways.
Lun, 12/14/2015 - 22:19
#27
I'm a Wizard
Eh. Might as well.
Armor: Cobalt, aside from the fact that half of the beasts are weak punching bags, Cobalt has no status resist. So suck it up and spend that 45k on recipes.
Helm: Y'know.
Shield: Aegis is kinda meh. Now the price is up to 135k on recipes.
Sword: Furious Flamberge's fire isnt that great to me. The charge of the Combuster can easily hit multiple targets and set them aflame but Flamberge doesn't need fire. It's not as shiny as Final Flourish either.
Gun: Biohazard's poison isnt that good for parties, even if you do pull off a poison that monster will probably be near dead. Gremlins are very easily beaten up with swords.
Bomb: Deadly Shard Bomb: Don't use normal end of story.
Mar, 12/22/2015 - 19:46
#28
YES!
Salamander. Azure. Royal Jelly.
Cold Iron, Biohazard, Light Shard.
Omega Shell or Ancient Plate.
Overall: Ancient Plate.
Mar, 12/22/2015 - 19:56
#29
YES!
Double Post...
Jue, 12/31/2015 - 21:43
#30
Here's mine:
Armor: Azure
Here's mine:
Armor: Azure Guardian. Nothing about it says unique.
Helmet: Azure Guardian. Ditto the above statement.
Sword: Fang of Vog. It's the perfect way to commit suicide. Pretty slow too.
Gun: Neutralizer. It isn't necessarily a bad gun, but the worst compared to all available guns out there.
Bomb: Irontech Destroyer. Too slow, and the Stun is weak. The chance of Stun isn't even acceptable. Nitronome is much faster.
Shield: Omega Shell. It has a little more health than Aegis, but it doesn't even have Piercing resistance. Only Normal. It has no other unique abilities. Completely useless...
For armor and shield, I would probably pick these, for their lack of abilities and their status penalties. Azure Guardian and Royal Jelly are also contenders.
* Almirian Crusader Helm
* Almirian Crusader Armor
* Aegis
For weapons I might pick these, individually. (Together they probably don't form the worst possible loadout, if that's what you were going for.)
* Furious Flamberge
* Biohazard (?)
* Deadly Splinter Bomb (?)