Volcanic Salamander and Arcane Salamander
Do, 05/10/2018 - 15:59
Well, I've been browsing the arsenal forums recently and I noticed that these sets have a bit of hate because people think they're useless but in reality they're not useless at all. It's true that they're specialised sets which means that they have specific usages but that doesn't mean they're entirely useless. So I'll give you some ideas on how they should be used.
Volcanic Salamander
Would work great at C42 and places with lots of oilers since oilers when lit on fire deal some elemental damage as well as their fire status. Also, most slime levels have a lot of constructs in them. This includes JK and IQ as well as lichenous lairs and jelly farms. These places have a lot of gun puppies and lumbers usually.
Arcane Salamander
Works in the same places as Volcanic Salamander while being slightly better as lichenous lairs as they include beasts as well. They also work in jelly farms where there are not only jelly cubes but also lumbers, gun puppies, lizards and wolvers. Another use for it is in FSC where there are some slimes and wolvers though little. You would be able to damage them while still having elemental defense for fire puppies and fire defense for the whole level.
There are currently no class armor sets that provide weapon damage increase and normal defense together so these may actually work a fair bit in this aspect if you mostly play fire levels with many weapon types. Of course Vog Cub and Volcanic Demo work too, but if you already have much ASI/CTR from Swiftstrike Buckler or unique variants these will serve you pretty well. You may also pair them with these sets if you have like high ASI/CTR for optimization's sake. There's not a single useless equipment piece in this game. It's true that some sets are good overall but when it comes to certain situations they fall short. Even Black Kat and Chaos seem almost useless in C42 when compared to Dragon Scale which is considered one of the weakest sets in the game overall.
Do, 05/10/2018 - 20:49
#2
meow
Ingited oilers deal elemental and fire? That's news to me. Can someone else verify? I've always thought that they deal piercing and fire.
Well they become more defensive to elemental when lit on fire so I thought they might as well do elemental damage, if that's not the case, however, Volcanic Salamander would still be good providing you some damage against them while still having defense against the gremlin scorchers which usually accompany them. Oilers are easy to dodge anyway, but the fire trail they leave is the most dangerous aspect they have which is rendered harmless with +8.5 fire resistance which is pretty easy to get on a fire set using a fire trinket of any kind or a low unique variant on a single piece.
But piercing is the main damage on a slime level.
That's actually not the case, at least not all the time. You see, slimes' attack patterns are so easy to dodge compared to say a crowd of lumbers or a lot of gun puppies, of course there are polyps too but I don't see them often outside of IQ but even in IQ elemental defense becomes more important than piercing defense except when you're facing lichens or turrets as if you're going to run IQ you'll mostly bring fire weapons which will render the ice cubes which are everywhere almost harmless as they can't attack you from a range. Also in JK T2 slime cube range attack isn't so powerful and accurate, it'll mostly miss.
And beasts are so pitifully easy...
Yes they are. BUT, have you ever done a beast-themed arena before? There are puppies and lumbers EVERYWHERE and given the tight space dodging becomes harder. Also, the last wave in the final room is always (correct me if I'm wrong) mechaknights which are very hard to dodge given the tight space again. Same goes for slime arenas as well. And the 2 arenas usually have a mix of slimes and beasts with the hardest monsters present being constructs.
So Arcane is not "slightly better", damage-wise, in this situation.
Well, you're right. I think that one slipped from me.
Of course a glass-cannon set is usually far better for every situation but when statuses are present that's not the case (at least for the laggier or less skilled players) and why bother to spent hundreds of thousands of crowns on making a good set better when you can make a new set for only a fraction of that cost? It's true that you'll lose some damage bonus but don't you think it's more fun to have a vast arsenal so you can play each set of levels with a specific set? I used to have all bomber armor sets (yes, even Kat Hiss Raiment...) but when I quit bombing I vendored all of them (with the exception of Kat Hiss and Mercurial Demo sets) then crafted just Black Kat. Yes it is true that's all I need for most of the game... But when I had a variety of armors, one for every situation, I had much more fun. Now I regret selling them. That doesn't mean that Black Kat does anything better than them though. I had an easy fire walk Volcanic Demo for C42, Mad Bomber for CTR which Black Kat doesn't provide and actually I use Kat Hiss Cowl when I'm recon-bombing as my bombs aren't level 10 yet (after I vendored every 5* bomb in the game with the exception of Dark Retribution, Celestial Vortex and Electron Vortex I started crafting new ones... I'm an idiot I know...) because that +low CTR is actually more valuable than +low MSI and the extra +med damage and saves my life pretty often. My point is, don't underestimate "weak" gear even if you can do everything they can with Chaos/Black Kat, there are some things they do better.
On a side nite though: They aren't balanced at all, they just fill a few narrow niches, which is why not everyone recommends them. And they need to get some buffs. I've already mentioned in a suggestion thread that all monster-specific armor sets should get +high instead of +med per piece with the exception of Arcane Salamander which would need +med on each piece to be balanced. There's also something that I didn't mention there, I think it would be a good idea to leave the Divine Veil as it is since it got 3 status resists instead of 2 I also think it would be a great idea to buff Radiant Silvermail to have a third status to resist, I suggest freeze as it's "radiant" which means it's glowing, emitting light or hot, so it's only normal for it to have freeze resistance. And maybe the Heavenly Iron set needs +med fiend damage per piece as well since it has shock debuff which is considered extremely harsh.
Do, 05/10/2018 - 21:15
#3
If you've read my armor guide- https://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/116352
We're actually kind of on the same page-
Those other armors..
I'm talking about armor like chroma, radiant silvermail, plate, stuff like that. No, these aren't 100% useless, but they're relatively underwhelming and not worth talking about or crafting unless you plan to collect armor. Lets take for example volcanic plate set. On fire levels, you can build the following-
volcanic plate armor + volcanic demo
This is a VERY potent set for the third round of the gauntlet, which features fire, gremlins, and various construct. But outside of that, it's pretty garbage because you raise your bomb slightly slower and massive amounts of normal, elemental and fire resist probably won't apply.
So yes, you can use these sets and they'll work to do what they say, but have fun heating them for that one tiny scenario.
So yes.
You can use your volcanic salamander suit at C42 and this will be a great option for you to have there, although the poison is going to be a large issue and you'll want UVs to cover it. Dragon scale set is probably better since it has more defenses that fit the level and doesn't need as much UVing, but volcanic salamander will work quite well too.
The issue with this
Is that if you make it as your main armor you're going to be worse off in every other situation. This is why in my guide I recommend making chaos or something more general to the game first, then branching out into other specialized armors like this as you see fit. If you do a lot of C42 and really want to invest then good for you.
Do, 05/10/2018 - 22:30
#4
meow
I think Volcanic Plate and Volcanic Demo got other uses than just the final room in the gauntlet. For example you can use it in fire gremlin levels or arenas, might be good at bombing in FSC if you've got CTR medium UV's or trinkets.
Also do I really have to heat my armor? I have a Black Kat Cowl with shadow + normal high and when I compared it at level 1 with a fully heated one they had about the same defense. It's currently level 5, should I heat it or nah? (forgive me for staying off-topic ;-;)
BTW, I remember carrying 3 other knights in C42 once with full Volcanic Demo and fire resistance pet perk with 2 damage trinkets. My weapons were, Dark Retribution,Big Angry Bomb, Graviton Vortex, Shivermist Buster. The damage from Dark Retribution was so great that I didn't even need poison resistance. The boss was also a piece of cake even though I was poisoned the whole time. So all that matters in C42 is actually fire immunity, everything else isn't that much of an obstacle, also the slimes and slime turrets didn't hit me that much as they were so easy to dodge and interrupt so all I needed was elemental defense cause the scorchers kept hitting me. That's my point here.
Fr, 05/11/2018 - 14:54
#5
response
Correct: You don't get much benefit from heating your armor. By the way, this is discussed in my armor guide. (Everybody has one.)
Yes, variety makes the game fun, and diverse armor can help with that --- but not nearly as much as diverse weaponry. For fun-seeking players with limited resources, my advice is always to focus on weapons.
You've described Volcanic Salamander and Arcane Salamander as useful for their fire resistance. That's true, but I'd much rather have other fire-resistant armor, such as the Vog Cub and Seerus that I mentioned above. Or Volcanic Demo, as Fehzor mentioned.
Yes, I have done beast arenas with lots of turrets. If I didn't want to wear glass cannon armor, then I would wear offensive armor matching the status threat (not the damage threat). And if there was no status or I still had multiple good choices, then I would choose elemental armor over piercing armor. Because, as you say, the constructs are the bigger threat. My point is that the beasts are so little threat that I wouldn't think to wear piercing armor at all.
Fr, 05/11/2018 - 17:45
#6
meow
My point is that the beasts are so little threat that I wouldn't think to wear piercing armor at all.
So beasts are pitifully easy to dodge... Slimes are easy to predict but a bit hard to dodge due to their random thorn and ranged-barb attacks and wide-range melee attacks so you usually shield-bump them or shield yourself when you see them attacking. Am I right? This just gives more reason to equip these armors which protect against the more dangerous monsters accompanying them, which are gremlins and constructs. Which makes Volcanic Salamander and Arcane Salamander more viable if you use multiple weapon types instead of just swords or guns as then you're gonna be better off with Skolver or Vog Cub or one of the gunner armors. Also the fire resist is pretty handy in most situations. See what I'm getting at here? They're supposed to shine in the hands of hybrid players who play a lot of slime and beast levels. Especially the ones with fire like terminal meltdown (some people run this for shinning fire crystals and eternal orbs of alchemy as it's basically a T3 version of sewer stash), C42, jelly farms, slime or beast arenas,etc... They would work even better if you have construct UV's on your gear.
Oh, and also, I looked up the status lichens on the wiki and I found out that oilers and quicksilvers don't do any elemental damage (aside from shock damage of course). Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Sa, 05/12/2018 - 11:32
#7
response
We have this thread occasionally (for example here and here). These same arguments are raised pretty much every time, which is fine.
Yes, you can imagine a couple of special situations, in which the particular defenses and bonuses of Volcanic Salamander and Arcane Salamander make sense: the right mix of threats, a high-latency Internet connection, using all three weapon types at once, etc. So a rich knight, who has the resources to cultivate numerous specialized armor pieces, might want them.
But most knights have limited resources. Some just use Chaos with status UVs, maybe with a piece of Black Kat thrown in. Others get a few pieces of class armor (sword, gun, bomb), which they can mix and match to provide good offensive bonuses and decent status resistance. I advise one of these approaches, so that most resources can be spent on weapons.
In other words, I'm not really disagreeing with your facts or analyses. I just think that very few knights would be able to act on them usefully.
Sa, 05/12/2018 - 13:46
#8
meow
@Bopp & Fehzor
Thanks for the nice argument, I think I find joy in posting on the arsenal forums when I can't access the game, so this truly means a lot to me. :3
Also, what's the worst Armor set in the game in your opinion? Is it Azure Guardian or another worse set (only 5* please)? I'm just curious.
Sa, 05/12/2018 - 14:16
#9
I'd argue that Almirian Crusader is worse than Azure Guardian. It resists the most uncommon status in the game and is vulnerable to arguably the most common status in the game. The only times curse becomes somewhat common is if you're applying it to yourself with one of the worst charge attacks in the game, or when you're in Darkfire Vanaduke, which has more fire than curse.
Sa, 05/12/2018 - 15:29
#10
meow
But it still have shadow defense which is way more valuable than piercing defense which can be said to be the least important defense due to beasts and slimes being very easy to predict. Fiends are among the hardest mobsters to deal with since just a few at a time from any kind of fiends can kill you pretty quickly if you don't count yesmen, silkwings or pit bosses of course.
Mo, 05/14/2018 - 00:20
#11
If a slag attacks me, I'd rather be wearing Azure than Almirian.
Mo, 05/14/2018 - 02:57
#12
meow
Would you go to darkfire vanaduke in fallen set or almirian set or valkyrie set? Or would you still use azure?
Mo, 05/14/2018 - 03:29
#13
you know
I think that the problem with your argument is that it's saying "look at these specific situations that these armours are useful in!" when you can talk about glass cannon / class armours and say "look at these everything that these armours are useful in!" So yes, they're not useless, but no, they're not useful.
Mo, 05/14/2018 - 12:46
#14
meow
Hmmm, let's see... Are there any fire-resistant armors providing damage bonus? No? Ok, that makes them good enough. In a fire slime level I'd rather have Volcanic Salamander rather than Vog Cub or Seerus.
oilers when lit on fire deal some elemental damage as well as their fire status
Ingited oilers deal elemental and fire? That's news to me. Can someone else verify? I've always thought that they deal piercing and fire.
To make a case for Volcanic Salamander, we're looking for a place that's filled with slimes, where the monsters deal elemental damage. Yes, slimes are often accompanied by constructs (because constructs are everywhere), so elemental defense is not too bad. But piercing is the main damage on a slime level. So how many players are going to invest in this specialized mix? As a newbie I would rather have Vog Cub or Seerus. As an experienced knight I would rather have Chaos or Black Kat with status UVs.
Arcane Salamander...Works in the same places as Volcanic Salamander while being slightly better as lichenous lairs as they include beasts as well.
Compared to Volcanic, you lose some slime damage for the sake of beast damage. And lichenous lairs are mainly filled with slimes. So Arcane is not "slightly better", damage-wise, in this situation. And beasts are so pitifully easy that every knight should be going into beast-heavy levels with glass cannon armor anyway.
In summary, I like that you're trying to find the niches for these armors, but I don't think that you've found any yet.