Industrial Catalizer VS Toxic Catalizer
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 01:06
Which one is better? i know pure shadow is kinda useless but, just asking everyone on their thoughs
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 02:38
#2
"Pure Shadow is kinda useless"
Weak to shadow: Gremlins, Slimes.
Best healers in the game: Gremlins.
Most profitable run in the game: Royal Jelly d16.
So uh...yeah.
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 05:43
#3
Toxic Catalyzer seems a good
Toxic Catalyzer seems a good shadow alternative for pure gunners, but I would not recommend it to others...
imho poison has two uses: 1) against single strong mobs and bosses ---> Dread Venom Striker is the way, as it deals strong poison
and against large groups of enemies when there are healers around ---> go for the poison bomb which can affect a lot of mobs at a time
The gun seems to me to be halfway but a poor choice in both cases... expecially considering that against Jelly King you will want to use swords
oh, UNLESS the AOE obtainable with vharge attack is very large, which I don't know :P
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 08:46
#4
shameless self bump
shameless self bump
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 10:15
#5
DR Troione- The blast has a
DR Troione- The blast has a pretty small area of affect but when you consider how closely lumped all of the Jellies are and the charge speed of the gun I don't think its too bad of a deal.
Here's a video of the Neutralizer (not the Biohazard) in action and you can determine whether or not it'd be worth using: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmffUCZhtc
BTW... Shadow damage = bad? What?
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 10:50
#6
Both catalyzers suffer from
Both catalyzers suffer from very slow bullet speed on the lower * versions, but the issue seems to improve as you get to 4 and 5*. I do find it slightly ironic that in the same patch as they addressed issues with the lower * haze bombs being terrible in comparison to the 5* version, and they just introduced 2 new guns with the exact same issue.
Anyway.. on topic. The pure shadow gun is the obvious choice for players who main guns. We're going to carry 3 guns, minimum, one for each damage type. The new catalyzer is the only ranged alternative to the shadowtech alchemer. The poison doesn't seem to proc all that often in my playtime so far, but it is a great weapon for taking out slimes. Merged lichen colonies in particular. The slow bullet speed doesn't matter against them and they're easy to load up with charged orbs. Against gremlins, however, this gun leaves a lot to be desired. Their ability to dodge combined with the awful bullet speed means you're not going to land many hits against them unless they're frozen/dodged into a corner.
You're not going to see too many people opt for the normal damage catalyzer path simply because there is very little need for a normal damage gun. Vanaduke's mask phase and.. well.. that's about it. If you're the type of player who's only going to carry one gun, you're better off with an elemental alchemer since gun puppies and zombies are the prime gunning targets and are both weak to elemental. And if you're an actual gunslinger, you're better off with the shadow path so you can cover all your damage types.
The only real reason I can see anyone taking the normal path is if they need the charge attacks AE damage in their build. But I personally think you'd be better off with a calibur charge or bomb for AE rather than a catalyzer.
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 11:50
#7
@Keenmachine
This is based on
@Keenmachine
This is based on my situation and preference but i disagree with the fact the normal dmg catalyzer has little use, as a sword user (who hasn't opted for the calibur line) i have always wanted to carry a gun for the conveniance in my third or second slot as i usually wield a Glacius while switching between a barb/faust/archeron for the other slots. Because my first slot is usually geared for shadow/elemental dmg the catalyzer will fit great for anyone who contrasts it with other specilised weapons if they only have 2 or 3 slots to work with. Simply switching to the gun quickly and utilising its charge attack appears to be a viable and fun option which i personally dont believe the previouse normal dmg handguns offered. Mby in short its a great substitue for a calibur/normal dmg weapon if you want to do acceptable damage and pursue other sword lines and still get an awesome charge.
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 20:40
#8
Anyone who states that a pure
Anyone who states that a pure shadow damage gun is bad is stupid.
Shadow damage =
crits on jellies + gremlins
normal damage to constructs + beasts
low damage to undead + fiends
Let me ask you this.
Why would you ever dare shooting fiends with this gun? EITHER of them. they're too slow. Fiends are outright silly.
Undead? Oh no, this gun isn't good against undead. I might have to bring a SECOND weapon.
Perhaps that one gun everyone freaking brings. you know, the argent peacemaker. it'd crit on the two enemies that this gun is bad against.
Vie, 07/08/2011 - 22:50
#9
Neither one is BAD. Shadow
Neither one is BAD. Shadow would be good for JK or gremlin T1-2 levels (T3 with the shield on the back, yeah. No. Bullets are too slow). Take into account the slow bullets and the fact the normal does just a wee bit more damage.
Also, take this into account: If you have a team with two catalyst gunners, you can detonate each other's charges. New definition of teamwork. SO if you have a friend who wants one, get one kind each. Though I will say, normal is more versatile. Shadow's good for MAYBE one or two stratums. And if you're trying to get charges on JK you have serious issues.
Sáb, 07/09/2011 - 03:04
#10
Zelda
they both suck, the poison effect is moderate, which is the smallest possible i think
u might want to have 3 charge attacks or more to make sure the target gets poisoned and that could already kill the monster
just get either of the guns for fun, its worth it, but not useful
Sáb, 07/09/2011 - 03:48
#11
Minor is. lol. Minor,
Minor is. lol.
Minor, Moderate, Strong.
Moderate is roughly identical to a T3 poison vial.
(with poison from catalyzer, I hit for 411. with T3 poison vial, I hit for 422)
Catalyzer poison is ~14.25% bonus damage
T3 Poison Vial is ~14.5% bonus damage
Dread Venom Striker is ~18% bonus damage
I don't know the damage bonus that a toxic vaporizer gives, based on the fact that I've never bothered to aquire one.
However, I inflict poison FAR more reliably with this than venom striker, and in AoE.
If I pile 4+ charges onto a mob, it's pretty much 100% chance that mob and all others in AoE radius are poisoned.
While this is unnecessary solo and in lower strata, when you get into T3 in a group of 3-4, it's nice. And honestly, that's what poison's for. Boosting team damage output. 14.25% x 4 = 57% bonus damage. All I need to do is ~50% of the damage the average of my other 3 party members are doing, to make my average contribution on-par.
Any more than that, and I'm far outshining others in effectiveness. If you ever played Aion, poison is to spiral knights what chanters are to aion.
Also, this gun is awesome and I absolutely love it. It's replacing my Storm Driver (which can one-shot gun puppies on a good charge) and that's saying something.
Sáb, 07/09/2011 - 03:46
#12
You math is wrong, going from
You math is wrong, going from 411 to 422 is about a 2-3% difference.
Also, some tests have shown that moderate is less than minor.
Sáb, 07/09/2011 - 03:56
#13
411 / 360 = 14.16% increased
411 / 360 = 14.16% increased damage. 422 / 360 = 17.16% increased damage.
You're correct, this is what happens when I post directly before going to bed.
Apologies, it's more around +14% catalyzer, +17% poison vial, +20% vile striker.
And as I said before, I've never owned a toxic vaporizer or other variants of the poison bomb, so I can't comment on that.
My point was that the damage difference was nominal enough (anything <5% is considered nominal imo) that I didn't feel the need to carry poison vials while I had a catalyzer. Striker procs poison far too infrequently and has no AoE ability, making it's poison moot even though there's a considerable damage difference.
Either way, a gun that inflicts roughly half the damage of a gran faust hit per "charge", and inflict poison to boot is alright in my book.
Sáb, 07/09/2011 - 05:12
#14
Zelda
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/6321
whatever it be it doesnt change the small chance and the small effect, multiplying them assuming a 30% extra dmg and a 30% chance of poison should be like 0.3x0.3 resulting in 0.09, that would be 9% overall difference, yet both effect and chance are much smaller than 30%
the other poison effects r dmg decrease, which could be useful if u manage to get urself hit and also manage to poison the monster, that hits u, before it hits u
anti heal is usually never necessary and on jk, it can be ok to use that sissy gun, but only when u hav a reliable party, so u dont have to do any dmg at all, however it would still be more useful at shooting the blocks rather than trying to hit jk with any of the 2 catalyzers
if u merely focus on poisoning for ur 4man team i think a poison bomb would be much more useful
then thers still that argument ive seen in attack speed vs dmg bonus forum topics very often, how many hits are needed to kill a monster, if thers still the same amount of hits needed, then the 10% turn to 0% immediately, if not, then i still wonder how u manage to poison all monsters before ur party members start hitting them without having them hold back for u
Sáb, 07/09/2011 - 08:49
#15
Anyone try this gun in a
Anyone try this gun in a party with like 3 people doing charge attacks and 1 person detonating?
It's one of my i-wish-i-had-gunner-friends ideas that I kinda wanna see happen, along with a 4-valiance party lol.
bump