Spiral Knights - Scamming: Not a bannable offense

Scamming: Not a bannable offense

16 replies [Last post]

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 08:44

Shoebox

I'm just gonna be frank here.
In a game where your playtime is directly determined by how much in-game currency you possess, you'd think they would take scamming a bit more seriously.
Maybe check trade and energy histories for players who have been reported, rather than just chat logs.

Since chat logs are an inferior and outdated means of detecting scammers and it has been proven time and time again by people's posts on this forum that they don't work.
Most people's first response to being scammed isn't "I should report them".
And I don't blame them, you've said that they won't get their items back if that player is banned.
Why the hell would you want to report somebody if all they're going to get is a temporary ban and still get to keep your items?
Not to mention that a lot of the players who get scammed are children, who might get upset at the prospect of losing all their hard earned items.

I don't believe that there is nothing you can do about it, either. You guys unbound items for players following the 5/17 patch and kill bugged bosses for people. But you can't ban scammers?
If that's really the case, then how come you guys haven't done anything about it sooner?

Your system is flawed and you need to start taking this stuff seriously.
Because I'm not just tired of seeing the threads about the same scammers constantly and consistently, I'm tired of not seeing anything being done about it.
And I know I'm not the only one.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 08:53

Patito

Shoebox for president!

Is it really this super clear that nothing is being done about scammers? I believe nothing can be officially stated when a player is banned, which causes a PR problem like the successes of the CIA. If no one can talk about bans, it's hard to say they are or are not happening. The canned response you are going to get about this is pretty straight forward:

"We cannot divulge any information about account related actions, but we assure you every reported incident is looked into, and we do take action. The only way you can prevent scammers is by reporting them. Please report. Thank you."

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:02

Kasper_V

Legacy Username

You tell them Shoebox !

A key feature of a fine fine game is to have a solid support team, whether that means dealing with scammers, or hacked accounts or whatever.

Just ask Blizzard. They are by far the best in the industry when it comes to dealing with such things.

(Don't ask the Ultima Online division of Electronic Arts though, they're dire)

So on that note...

Go Three Rings/Sega, go go go !

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:03

Thoranhippo

Yoh Shoebox. A couple monthes

Yoh Shoebox. A couple monthes ago there was a thread concerning scammers and bans on the French forums. The scammer whom it was about got banned, almost straightly. Am pretty sure scammers get banned, when GM's investigation leads to a "positive" conclusion.
Oh yes, the ban was permanent by the way.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:08

Gwenyvier

I have not had my coffee yet

I have not had my coffee yet today, so sorry if I sound a bit zoned. Couldn't a list be put up of the AMOUNT of people banned, and for what?

123 for scamming other players
27 for indecent language
13 idiots for impersonating a GM
etc.

You wouldn't need a list of names, just the amount... although I can see one problem. FtP games accounts are rather easy to make. Unlike games you have to buy/pay a subscription for. They can always just create another account.

Mmmmm, I remember in Guild Wars, whenever a player got permanently banned Dhuum the (exiled) god of death would come out of the ground in the outpost and reap their soul (account) back to the underworld forever. Useful... not really. But it meant all the players knew that the rules were being enforced when you saw him pop up.

~Gwen

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:17

Shoebox

Sounds like nothing is being

Sounds like nothing is being done about scammers to me.
Eurydice's advice? Report quicker.
If that's really okay with Three Rings, I might be quitting sooner than I was planning.

But I've had a lot of interesting experiences in other games in relation to scamming.

I've been banned for mimicking a scammer in public chat to get the scammer to go away.
I was also banned once for saying 'I am a scammer', then having a friend report me to see what happens.
That was in Runescape, a game which finally got it's act together 4 years too late.

I also, one time, did something interesting as a joke in a game called Gates of Andaron.

In world chat, some guy was offering to upgrade people's items free of charge and scamming people.
The guy logged off and people were complaining they got scammed, a GM logged on and said something along the lines of 'I can't ban him, and even if I did you guys still wouldn't get your items back'.
Then I said 'So if I just casually used world chat right now to scam people of their items, you wouldn't ban me?'
He didn't say anything, so I just started randomly offering to upgrade items to +20 for free.
People actually SENT ME ITEMS AND TELLS, one guy even said "I'm not sure I can trust you, that other guy scammed me", then SENT ME ITEMS ANYWAY.
I then said to the GM 'Dude, people actually sent me items' and he just said 'Hope you enjoy them!'.

Obviously, I screencapped the whole thing and sent it to their support e-mail.
I don't think anything ever ended up happening from all of it.
But I just thought that was totally ridiculous, that they condoned that behaviour because it was too hard to deal with all the reports and publicly let me scam all of those people.

That isn't okay, just like what's happening here, is not okay.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:22

Endymion

Game Master

Scamming IS a bannable offense

Let me be perfectly clear: If we catch a player scamming others, we'll take action. Depending on a lot of things, that can be anything from a warning to a permanent ban (and in the cases likely refered to here, the latter is the likely outcome).

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 09:34

Character-Name

Mr. Shoe, the problem is catching them

Three Rings here take the "innocent until proven guilty" approach, which as its own pitfalls no matter how lengthy or detailed are the logs they keep.

In my opinion its better than "guilty until proven otherwise" approach of other games, when you get a bunch of half-twits going "gibe monies or i report u" and variants. Best of all being Maplestory and their 'fame' system... ("We are farming this area. Leave or me and my entire guild will defame you back to square zero").

Its sad, and rather annoying, to think this kind of people survived the Skylark's crash I know; but if they're not getting caught as often as they should, I ask; HOW can we make them get caught?

I'd say we should add a message at the loading tooltips or something to make people more aware of scammers and reports, but I guess that would change the game's mood quite a bit. And flood the GMs trawling trough reports.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 11:05

Eurydice

Community Manager

What Endymion said. Exactly

What Endymion said. Exactly how my earlier post translated in your head to "OOO doesn't do anything about scammers," I cannot fathom. Why on earth would I bother to advise people to report scammers if nothing were ever done about them?

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 11:28

Nodocchi

How would you define

How would you define scamming? How do you determine whether a person has truly been scammed? You give OOO such a broad mandate without helping them at all in determining what people actually think should be bannable offenses.

Is a person with 5* gear pretending to be a new player and running around begging people for money a scammer? He is certainly misleading people who do give him money.

What about the case where a guy asks to borrow some money but never logs back on again? Should OOO just ban that account? What if he forgot about borrowing money from you and gave all his stuff to a friend and then OOO tracked down the friend and banned his account? How do you even determine if the friend was in on a scam or innocent?

What if you ask someone to craft something for you and they take your CE and materials but trade the finished product to the wrong person? Are they then obligated to craft another one for you? If they don't or don't have the resources to would it be called scamming and you should report the player? How would you determine whether or not the person they traded the item to was in on the scam?

Or in all these cases should OOO just unilaterally ban these people, innocents be damned? There are so many different cases and grey areas that telling OOO to go and ban "scammers" is like telling the government combat terrorism by arresting anyone who says the word "bomb".

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 11:44

#10

miojoxhl2

Legacy Username

Guys, I'm sorry to disagree

Guys, I'm sorry to disagree on this, but...
TR takes a little to process our requests, thats TRUE.
But now step on their shoes for a sec:
* Check how many active players this game has (theres always someone who created an account but never plays);
* Check the percentage of those who complain about something, anything at all; (I guess like 98%, since NOTHING is perfect).
* Now check how much time it takes to read all e-mails , process, filter and respond with the right kind of action. No automated software can do that (yet). So they must rely on PEOPLE.
Someone actually has to read all the complaints from tech support to doubts about how to buy CE. EVERY DAY.

That makes the banning system rather slow, but I don't think it's ineffective. It just takes a while.
Now MY theory on how to help this get improved:
You want bad people to go away? Advice people when you see a scammer in action. Advise your friends. Help weaker / new players to get better stuff, wether by partying with them to a harder tier that they could not accomplish alone or by actually giving them something you don't care for anymore.
If all the good people make an effort and start a line of behaviour in-game, the number of "scammable" people will reduce gradually, leaving the scammers without their daily food supply.
Things I have done to lead new players away from scams:
* Party to harder tiers for better crowns / mats / heat;
* Buying elevator / resurrection costs;
* Public advice upon seeing a possible scammer in action;
* Giving away stuff I don't need;
* Selling low-star things for a cheap price;
* Selling CE UNDER the market value;

Yeah, that probably gives me a slight disadvantage, because I could probably profit from all the above situations if I wanted to.
The thing is: there's just no need to. When you get to a certain amount of CE and a certain number of stars in your set, you get enough crowns from farming to pay for all that and more.
Doing all that, I've still kept my CE growing steadily over the days.
BUT not in a fast enough rate, so I bought CE for my sole entertainment in the art of UV crafting.
Anyway, I've talked too much. The point is: if everyone starts being sportive about the game, bad people will have no "golden eggs chicken" to sell.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 14:44

#11

Metaphysic

Legacy Username

If something sounds too good

If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Anybody who offers you "free" money as a result of some complex exchange is most likely trying to scam you. People aren't even running sophisticated scams; the scam you fell for is roughly equivalent to a guy on the street offering you 100 bucks tomorrow if you give him 50 bucks today. Use some common sense, please.

In order for an administrator justify banning a player, they first must research as to exactly what happened. This involves digging through logs, determining what (if any) deception occurred and then making a judgement call as to what (if any) punishment the behavior merits. This is not a simple process, if only due to the varying nature of the reported offenses and the sheer number of complaints they must sift through every day. You also can't expect them to send out a bulletin every time they discipline a player; it's really none of your business.

If you think chat logs are an inferior and outdated means of catching scammers, I'm curious how you think they should go about it. Logs contain all the information conveyed in the transaction, so what else are they supposed to look at?

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 15:22

#12

Psychephage

Scamming: A bannable offense.

Scamming: A bannable offense. ftfy.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 15:27

#13

Munching

Legacy Username

I agree. I mean, look at

I agree.

I mean, look at OOO's security system for Spiral Knights.
Now look at Blizzard's security system.

Blizzard's security system is practically a tough fortress for your account. Add an Authenticator with that and you're good. Seriously, if you do what you're supposed to do with your account + Blizzard's very nice system, you'll never get hacked/scammed/anything like that. SK needs to learn from Blizzard, and not act like a Sony. I really want them to fix up their GMs, because they don't help either.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 15:46

#14

Gigafreak

Legacy Username

Blizzard's got a huge team,

Blizzard's got a huge team, several billion dollars, and hosts on their own servers.

Spiral Knights has... none of this.

How can one learn to be rich? :<

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 15:51

#15

Shuwashuwa

Legacy Username

@Munching Hacking and

@Munching
Hacking and scamming is not the same thing. Please learn to use your brain.

Mon, 07/11/2011 - 16:05

#16

Eurydice

Community Manager

Blizzard's security system is

Just to be clear here, this discussion is about handling people who convince trusting souls to hand over their in-game items and/or currency. No dongle in the world can reach into your head to block you from trusting someone you shouldn't. All the account security systems you describe can do is make it harder (not impossible) for people to hijack your account without your willing or inadvertent help.

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Scamming: Not a bannable offense