First equipment/crafting impression--where did I go wrong?
Mié, 03/16/2011 - 17:44
My impressions of the crafting system:
http://img12.imageshack.us/f/memereview.jpg/
I seriously don't understand why the crafting system is the way it is.
I can buy recipes. They're not cheap, but I bought some.
I can gather ingredients. Well, I can gather some ingredients as the RNG deigns to hand them out so I'm missing some ingredients of most of the recipes that I bought. I guess I'll get the remainder later.
Maybe. I don't trust the RNG of any MMO to be cooperative.
In the mean time, my default equipment has leveled up several times. So I'm not sure if my now improved equipment is now better than some of the simpler gear. This MMO is supposed to be an anti-grind MMO, but I'm actually dreading buying new gear as new equipment apparently needs heat grinding to be fully effective.
Then there's the star system. I understand that there's some restrictions based on star levels, but I'm not sure if I should buy zero star or one star or two star equipment first. Again, every purchase, as far as I can tell, means more grinding for heat.
Oh, and I'm going to have to spend money or mist energy for every attempt, and I'm pretty sure I don't get a refund if I buy "the wrong gear". (Plus, I'll lose time spent grinding heat for gear that I end up replacing.)
There does to be a shortcut--merchants seem to sell up to two star items. You need to have quite a few crowns for some of them, and I've got a bad feeling that they're going to be inferior to crafted items. (And even then, there's still the heat grinding issue.)
If there's a casual-friendly, low/no-grind solution to all of this, I'm willing to listen. There's information on the wiki about all weapons, but the list of swords is far more of an information overload than helpful.
And, to top it all off, I understand that I have to get four 4-star equipment items to see all of the game. Given my difficulties trying to figure out how I'm supposed to get a recipe for a 2 star item and the ingredient drops to fill them out, trying to figure out how to get a 4-star weapon sounds very unpleasant. Right now, cryptography sounds like a simpler hobby than Spiral Knights.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 00:33
#2
For the most part, higher
For the most part, higher star level gear will be better off than lower star level gear, even at level 1 of heat.
So, for example, if you have a 1* sword now, a 2* sword will most definitely be better (and if not, it will get better really fast, as the first few levels of heat go by quickly). So no, you should not dread upgrading, it will only ever help you.
With that in mind, the system is really quite simple. You can pick up the recipes for the upgrades you want, and then you can hunt/trade for the ingredients you require. Make said gear, and enjoy! Doesn't get much simpler than that. Where you start doesn't really matter, but the star system is quite accurate(0/1* being the beginner level, and 5* being the best). The heat system only improves current equipment, and isn't necessary per se, except for 4* and 5* items (4* items usually require the 3* prequel being level 5, and 5* items require the 4* prequel to be level 10).
As far as what line of gear you want to go - it all really depends on playstyle. There are suits that focus on all areas of gameplay, so you can either wing it and just go with what you think sounds/looks good, or research the wiki. Feel free to contact me (Cactuscat in-game) or others if you want some specific tips in regards to equipment, or just ask here.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 04:07
#3
Thank you for confirming my fears?
Given that both of your answers include instructions on which parts of the game to grind, I think it's safe to conclude that Spiral Knights is a grind-free MMO in the same way that the Pacific Ocean is dry or McRib sandwiches are kosher.
"You can pick up the recipes for the upgrades you want, and then you can hunt/trade for the ingredients you require. Make said gear, and enjoy! Doesn't get much simpler than that."
(facepalms)
The recipes are unsorted, some of the vendors are stuck in dungeons and finding the ingredients apparently requires a wiki search to find out what sort of dungeon I'm supposed to go to to get a good chance at the right drops. And, as for trading items, no thank you! There's apparently no auction house and I really don't want to spend time trying to make trades before I can get back to the action sequences. Really, I wouldn't have downloaded this allegedly "no grind" MMO if I was looking to do those kinds of things.
Oh, and I'm apparently supposed to get a 3* item (somehow), and grind that into a 4* and then a 5* item. That's convoluted enough that I'd actually prefer a "stereotypical level grind" to this system.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 04:30
#4
Clearly you don't know what
Clearly you don't know what real grinding is if you call playing the game grinding.
I mean obviously there needs to be some level of progression otherwise what purpose is there to having gear quality?
That was the whole reason they actually brought this system in, in the first place.
It adds some level of longevity to the game and there's nothing stopping you from just buying the things you need in the Bazaar when it comes down to it.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 05:17
#5
Yes, it is grinding
"Clearly you don't know what real grinding is if you call playing the game grinding."
I'm not doing that. I'm calling the tedious, repetitive parts that prevent me for playing the game grinding.
I find the action parts of the game are interesting. I don't like the convoluted craft system at all. If I have to go through the tedious process of gathering bits of this and pieces of that before I can play the actual game, well, I'm not going to bother.
"I mean obviously there needs to be some level of progression otherwise what purpose is there to having gear quality?"
You're just justifying the grind.
"It adds some level of longevity to the game"
Yes, that's why MMOs fall back on grinding
"and there's nothing stopping you from just buying the things you need in the Bazaar when it comes down to it."
The Bazaar doesn't seem to sell the items needed to unlock higher levels.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 06:06
#6
If I have to go through the
If I have to go through the tedious process of gathering bits of this and pieces of that before I can play the actual game, well, I'm not going to bother.
Monster Hunter is pretty much just gathering bits and pieces.
People play it, people progress through it.
Occasionally people call it a grind. Those people are missing the entire point of Monster Hunter.
Or any other advancement system, for that matter.
If you don't like playing games to get to the end of them. Go do something else.
Gear progression is something that happens naturally from playing the game.
This is why costs to craft scale up as you go deeper, where the rewards are greater.
There is no curve, there is no RNG, playing the game is how you get better at it.
Plain and simple.
You're just justifying the grind.
I'm not going to waste my time explaining what the game was like before the Tiering system.
But needless to say, this was an improvement.
The Bazaar doesn't seem to sell the items needed to unlock higher levels.
The Bazaar is a forum where you can buy and sell items.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 08:06
#7
The Bazaar sells items for
The MARKETPLACE (bazaar is trading forum) sells items for the higher levels occasionally, you have to check daily.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 08:59
#8
So...
So playing = grinding?
Do you have any idea what grinding is? All the things you mentioned you get eventually by just playing the game normally. No need to kill special monsters, or do repetitive boring tasks. You can buy the items from vendors, or from players, or craft them yourself. What more do you want?
You want to know what grinding is? Playing Ragnarok Online and having to kill 10000 low level monster for a CHANCE of getting a card in order to do pvp properly, then repeating the process with 10 other items.
MMOs need some sort of progress or people get bored, SK has got hardly any grinding at all.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 10:22
#9
Yeah, honestly, you can call
Yeah, honestly, you can call it a grind if you want. I don't find it much of a grind myself. Nonetheless, that doesn't change the fact that it is really simple to get proper recipes/upgrades/gear.
Just by playing through dungeons, you accrue enormous amounts of ingredients and crowns, and you'll find tons of recipes from the vendors. Just by playing the game. (Also there is a starting recipe vendor in the Bazaar within the game, who sells basic recipes for starting players, definitely check that out).
So honestly, if you aren't enjoying the game play and dungeons - because that is how you get EVERYTHING - then this game may not be for you.
Jue, 03/17/2011 - 10:29
#10
Completion
There is this fine line between grinding and replay value, and it seems to me this game is entertaining enough to make the majority want to continuously play through dungeons in order to advance their character. Personally I am a completionist when it comes to games, so getting the best armor, etc. is definitely a goal of mine, no matter how many times I have to run through a dungeon. I would not consider it grinding, if you do, perhaps RPGs are not for you.
Vie, 03/18/2011 - 15:02
#11
Not much grind for an MMO, but a lot of grind for an OOO game
People coming from "traditional" MMOs are going to have the definite impression that Spiral Knights is grind-lite, but people coming from Puzzle Pirates (OOO's flagship game) are not. To those of you who have never played Puzzle Pirates, it is in theory possible to be producing maximum-level output for a ship within 5 *minutes* of starting to play the game, and to be counted as a top player (top 1% of scores) within 1 *hour* of starting the game--*if* you know what you're doing, and all without paying a cent. I suspect it's not possible to be dealing tier-5 damage within an hour of free play in Spiral Knights (and that's not surprising, since those time scales are simply unheard of in traditional MMOs). Maybe Puzzle Pirates has given us an unrealistic hope of what a grind-free game should be, but please try to understand where we're coming from.
Sáb, 03/19/2011 - 05:10
#12
...and downright weird grind for a traditional MUDder
Several things:
* Most of the replies above strike me as unintentionally Monty Python-esque. (falsetto) Have you tried the bacon, eggs, sausage, pancakes, grind and grind? That hasn't got much grind innit! (/falsetto)
* The game advertises itself as grind-free. It's not advertised as low grind, but no grind. That's outright false advertising. While I understand that many of you like the game and find what grind there is to be acceptable, "low" doesn't equal "no". Period.
* As someone who has played MUDs since before anyone ever heard of MMOs, I'm not a stranger to grind. Heck, I still play MUDs and they still have grind. However, I like their grind system much, much more.
MUD grind: Get some XP and some gold and you can level up. We don't care where you get them. Go adventuring whereever you like (but don't complain too much if you get in over your head).
SK tier and crafting grind: You're stuck at low level dungeons until you fill out this shopping list, even if you can reach the a gate for a higher level dungeon. Oh, and there's several dozen items used in making the items you're going to need, most of which you'll get randomly. You might end up with everything you need to make a required item except for a crystal moose doot, and information on how to get that is gonna be on the wiki. Problem?
* "Maybe Puzzle Pirates has given us an unrealistic hope of what a grind-free game should be,"
Now you're just over-complicating things. X-free means NO X. (Unless it's something like "fat free", in which case trivial--trivial!--amounts of fat are allowed in fat free products, but that's a whole different kettle of beans.)
SK has chosen a low grind route. It shouldn't advertise itself as grind-free.
Sáb, 03/19/2011 - 05:28
#13
FAT, FREE!
You can grind and it doesn't cost you anything.
It's not false advertising, you just misconstrued the context.
Sáb, 03/19/2011 - 08:36
#14
Honestly, you keep making it
Honestly, you keep making it sound much more complicated than it really it as far as crafting goes. ;P
Numerous, if not all, MMO's that have crafting systems require you to find and farm for certain ingredients, and some of them you have to go out of your way for or you have to trade for. Exact same thing here.
That gating mechanic, like Shoebox said, is for progression. All of those games have them as well (in the form of levels or required gear), and that is the exact same thing here. You can't progress until you have good enough gear, which isn't hard to get at all. (WoW, Warhammer Online, Ultima Online, Maple Story, etc)
I'm not sure where you are having problems, though. There is a recipe vendor in Haven who rotates everyday, offering new 1* - 2* recipes. There is also the Spiral Quartermaster - he has the recipes for multiple item paths in the game, for very decent gear (From 2* to 5*), so go there if you are having trouble with what line to go.
And if you are complaining that the "game isn't grind free" - seeing as some people disagree, wouldn't you call it subjective by nature? If you think this game is grindy, then by all means go ahead, but there are those who will disagree with you.
Sáb, 03/19/2011 - 14:28
#15
Advertising?
"It shouldn't advertise itself as grind-free."
Given that Spiral Knights *hasn't* been advertising itself *at all* until recently, could you please point me to where it's advertised itself as "grind-free"? The only statement I could find was the following:
“Spiral Knights skips the stereotypical level grind for a co-op adventure that is focused on fun gameplay above all else.”
And guess what? It's true; knights don't level up. It's also true that you don't need anything besides the starting equipment for a "co-op adventure that is focused on fun gameplay."
"If there's a casual-friendly, low/no-grind solution to all of this, I'm willing to listen. There's information on the wiki about all weapons, but the list of swords is far more of an information overload than helpful."
If you want, as a casual player, to get direct access to T3, pay $5 to the game. Right now, $5 ~= 5 million crowns, which will enable you to buy 4* equipment directly from vendors or other players. Apparently you also need to beat a few T1 and T2 bosses before you're allowed to go to T3, but that can hardly be considered grind.
Sáb, 03/19/2011 - 17:45
#16
@tanonev
http://www.youtube.c
@tanonev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUMxpYLJQiM
1:03
but I am guessing this trailer is out of date...
Dom, 03/20/2011 - 01:03
#17
Hm
>You're stuck at low level dungeons until you fill out this shopping list
I don't want you in my tier 3 with beginner gear, all you will do is die in two hits while dealing no damage.
1. You do as many runs as possible (for heat, Crowns, materials, and recipes)
2. Once you get the recipe of the item you wish to make you look at the materials and requirements (now you realize what your missing example Beast Scale) you realize you have to kill beast type monsters for this drop so you try to find a map with a lot of beast type monsters and you kill them.
3. You can trade for the materials you are missing (Crowns or CE is usually used in this process)
Now as for the crowns are hard to get etc.:
Honestly just do runs once your in T2 and T3 the crowns average (For myself) 5k to 8k+ a run EASILY, and if you solo you make a lot more. If you need energy well save up the crowns for Ce.
This game has many players who never bought CE to well be great players its some work, but beats paying for crystal energy.
As for weapons and Armors:
Each weapon and armor has special abilities and each monster is weaker against certain type of weapons so there really no "Good Weapon" which is great against everything. More you train up your weapons you will figure out some of the ones you have are useless and will switch to a new weapon.
We have the Wiki which lists majority of the weapons, armors, which monster drops what etc. So spend time reading that if you dont want to waste your energy and ask players in game what they think is good and what they think is bad etc.
Training gets easier once you complete your armor, helm, shield....and well move onto 1 item training its real simple. I usually level up a 5* item in a day or every other day so ya its not so hard, and you have to figure out which maps give you the most heat etc.
^Those are some tips I hope that helps.