I abandoned my Leviathan in favor of a DA because so many people told me to ditch the former and that DA was, hands down, the best sword in the game. I'm not impressed by it, honestly. It's slow as hell and looks like a giant yellow [pointy thing]. I actually did better with Levi in FSC.
So why is this weapon loved so much? Did I make the right decision making one?
Don't use the charge, dps is just so much better without it.
There's a huge discussion on a Highlander build thread (beware: a lot of mega-posts) which covers slow swords (Suda, Triglav, DA, GF) in a fair bit of detail and builds around it.
The slow swords are pretty hard to like if you don't have any ASi. Get yourself a Swifty and you'll start likin' it more pretty fast.
Eh charge helps. I'll give example.... on FSC zombie got frozen, then I use first charge -> first swing. The initial charge broke the frozen without knockback. The first swing knock it back then they eat up flying swords pretty good. Damage (assuming some sword dmg bonus) would be 650 (charge) + 350 (first swing) + 3* 180 (flying sword) = 1640 per zombie at that instance. I could hit 2 - 3 zombies at once so that's 1640 * 2 - 3 = 3280 - 4920 damage per charge.
I'm not a fan of the heavy swords either; I prefer to spread monsters out and take them down individually with a faster, higher DPS weapon, thinning the crowds in less time and allowing me to react to threats faster. If you like Leviathan Blade, give Glacius or Voltedge a try. Both are excellent weapons, and probably the only real competition DA has in terms of swords for FSC.
So now consider that during the time you charge the DA, you could be doing at least 2 full combos (a little more, probably not 3). Two combos are something like (350 + 450) * 2 = 1600. The same damage as the charge. But it's WAY easier to hit multiple mob for the multiple amount. And a charge can fail for a number of reasons. Normal swing don't fail that often, and you only loose a fraction of second anyway. Oh, and there is no huge overkill.
The charge big advantage is not the DPS. It's the safety, the range and the knockback.
@ the op : if you prefer Levi to DA, you should probably use a Brandish line sword. If you love Levi for its charge, sorry to inform you, but it's not a team-friendly way to play. And most swords out-dps Levi charge because the charge will simply almost never hit for the full amount due to its own knockback.
not exactly 2 full combo, one full combo -> you chase the monster you fling away -> then another combo, based on my experience it takes way more time. Charge main point is DPS, normal swing does knockback pretty well, you don't need to charge. Agreed, charge can fail for many reasons, but with friends you are used to/good party members, we are able to execute each our charge optimally.
Naw, if you position your combos correctly, then by the second swing they'll be far away enough to not hit you, but close enough that the time it takes for you to reach them for your next combo is absolutely negligible compared to stopping to charge, especially considerin' the charge will require you being in their face for the full damage anyways, and this problem is further amplified by the fact that DA has a naturally high charge time. Just swinging catches crowds easier and has inarguably more dps.
Charge main point is not dps. It's to deal damage to monsters that are just out of reach, on top of traps like pits and spikes. Most of the rooms in fsc has a wall that you can pin zombies against, which negates the problem of pushing them away. The charge is great when zombies are clustered together, like the effect of vortexes. But at that point, the knockback from the 2nd swing won't push them out of a 5* electron vortex, so combo'ing there is better.
Your math is wrong, because the three swords won't hit all zombies at once. At best, you can hit each zombie 4 times with the holograms. If you miss the charged swing, and the zombie just happened to be out of reach, 2 swords can hit, and one of them will drag it away, dealing damage 2 more times. And I don't think its possible to hit the zombies with a charged swing, then a 2nd swing. But my asi is only low, and it might be possible. Doesn't seem likely, however, as zombies are smaller creatures than lumbers and are more susceptible to knockback.
Let's do FSC together. You'll be my shiver slave, or may be volt edge spammer.
myahahahahaha *evil laugh*
If you're runnin' DA with ASi:no/low then you're definitely gunna find things a lot trickier to use by combos; Charges won't be affected and combos will be slow and clunky at best. With decent ASi though, charges just don't even compare. Even if you have them all backed against a wall, you'd still be faster just layin' into them all with swings rather than steppin' back to charge up every time.
The only time when the charge is useful for "out of reach" is when there's a ledge of sorts and you physically can't reach them at all. If "out of reach" means a few steps away, then you could probably have attacked normally and had them killed before you even finished charging.
you're doing it wrong if you only use da charge for "out of reach" monster.
Blitz charge >>>> that flying sword on those "out of reach" monster.
I have spoken with many intermediate-level players who view DA as unequivocally the best sword in the game. On one occasion, I was almost kicked out of a party because I was using Barbarous Thorn Blade on a bunch of wolvers, and the leader wanted me to charge my DA. He protested, "But DA is the best sword!" Sigh.
Against the undead in FSC, there's no question that an elemental sword will outperform a Leviathan Blade (unless maybe the latter has big CTR and you're solo). I compare the elemental swords in my sword guide. In short, by comboing DA against a crowd you can achieve outrageous DPS, as Fradow said. So I use DA in FSC, even though I use Brandishes elsewhere in the Clockworks.
On one occasion, I was almost kicked out of a party because I was using Barbarous Thorn Blade on a bunch of wolvers, and the leader wanted me to charge my DA. He protested, "But DA is the best sword!" Sigh.
/faceLoLpalm.
^Then we see a guy claiming wolvers overpowered because he fails with a DA.
Wolvers get over-nerfed and the game is not fun anymore.
I use full Vog Cub armor, so my ASI is fairly high. I still find DA to be a hard weapon to appreciate.
I was actually thinking of getting Combuster, unless someone knows how to acquire Voltedge without doing PvP.
I still have nightmares of the time I tried to take on a bunch of ash-tails with my fireburst brandish and full angelic armor...
@Tammytryhard You can get a Voltedge without doing PVP if you pay someone a huge amount of CE to unbind one (probably around 6000ce minimum to cover crafting, unbinding, and opportunity costs).
On the topic of DAs... If you are only dealing with a small number of mobs, for example 1-6 zombies, then use the knockback to hit them all into a wall or corner. That way you don't need to chase them down between combos and can just combo continuously against the wall until they are all dead.
This is particularly useful against light enemies like when hitting a Mender with a GF.
I'm a heavy sword user, but i still do the same thing when using the brandish line basic combo.
On the other hand... When doing a charge attack with both sword types you can usually get better damage by directing them into an open area so that they can "ride the charge."
In FSC ,I prefer Voltedge because I really enjoy comboing it with an Electron Vortex. But if I can't bring both for whatever reason then the DA suits me just fine.
@Tammytryhard I'd recommend the Combustor over Voltedge for everywhere but FSC. It still works well on Trojans there but people will look at you funny.
DA was my first 5* item ever and I do not regret my decision at all. It does wonders to large groups of the enemies it's strong against and has great knockback that keeps you safe at all times. I thought 3 swing swords were my thing until I upgraded all te way to DA, I find the fighting style very fluid and poised. You can't just go around swinging it willy nilly. But really, it's personal preference.
Is it really a kick-ass sword? Yes.
That doesn't mean that it's easy to use.
There are a ton of sword techniques that heavy swords use which you should become familiar with if you want to appreciate the DA.
Levi is a hack-and-slash, sometimes-charge-up weapon. DA is not as simple as that. You need to be familiar with when to do a full 2-swing combo, shield cancelling, the triple-swing, the step-swing technique, its knockback characteristics, it's charge characteristics, the charge attack bug, etc to make full use of it. It takes a lot more skill to effectively use than Levi(see also: brandishes).
Also, consider max ASI. VH is good, but with heavy swords, the more the better.
EDIT: My in-game name is the same as my forum alias, mail me or something if you need to be shown the different techniques, I can spare a couple of minutes for you in the Training Hall.
Totally agree with Carthiah. Heavy sword are not that easy.
I really find there are 3 stages which most players go through when using a DA (probably valid with other heavy sword, but especially DA in FSC) :
- I don't understand this sword. The second swing never hit, I always get hit because it's so slow and the charge is buggy (i'm exagerating a little).
- charge is awesome I can spam it all day and not get hit and still eat with the other hand. This is also seen with Levi users. The problem is that too much players stay at this stage.
- I master all the techniques, especially the step-swing technique, and I mostly use the combo without every getting hit and roll on zombies with ease. I also make sure to ALWAYS have at least ASI med.
I've used 2-hit swords almost from the beginning and just recently gave Fang of Vog a shot. Terrible experience for me. I couldn't handle the stepping forward with each swing and the lack of knockback. I really had no idea how to fight multiple enemies with that weapon. Probably charge attack, but I didn't really wanna risk it with FOV lol.
With DA, you can easily fight and damage about 4 monsters at a time with your regular swings, whether you like spamming full combos or using shield cancelled slashes [imo safer/possibly faster DPS, especially if you know how to tripleslash].
On enemies like turrets or lumbers, you can save your second slash until you see the telegraph mark and use that to interrupt/make sure they don't get to attack.
Charge attacks:
In general, charge attacks ARE lower DPS, but they make up for it in utility and/or timing. This is true for pretty much any weapon, from Biohazard to Gran Faust (yeah, royal jelly) and DA. You could charge and dodge while waiting for someone to throw water on Vanaduke's mask, for example, and deal burst damage when the fire goes out PLUS do regular combos afterwards for massive damage, or charge and wait for someone to drop a vortex and release for massive damage.
@Seiran:
FoV is hard to use at first; generally not worth it at all if you don't have at least med+ ASi. Pretty limited use overall, but really, really fun to use imo; the charge is unreal damage but the self-fire burns like hell. :D
I don't think I've ever actually used the regular attack of the FoV. I literally only ever use it for the charge. (on the other hand, I spam the regular attack on my Voltedge almost continuously. There's nothing quite like diving face-first into a swarm of slags and coming out the other side leaving nothing but a trail of ecto drops and sleep vials in your wake)
Do you really need an ASI on a heavy sword?
I run RJP with a Gran Faust and no ASI at all, and it's perfectly usable.
Asi on heavy swords make it good. No, you don't need it if you shield cancel/drag your 2nd attack. But it is still good to have asi on heavy swords.
Do you attack enemies offensively or defensively? I think heavy swords are better for defensive fighting, waiting till everything crowds up, use combo, knock crowd away etc etc. I don't think it's the best sword in the game I think it's one of the best and on par with the other best swords in the game, but not the number one sword for life.
I have one and I can use it, it's pretty easy mode, just boring. I have a Cold Iron Vanquisher which is the sibling to a Levi and that's pretty easy mode too, but in a party only thing I don't like about the DA is that it is slow at killing that one or two enemies and the other people will push and attract other enemies away so big crowds don't happen a lot.
I don't care about DPS per say, cause it's not like it really matters when you playing just to play, but I do want to feel like I'm doing something and for the DA that's usually the charge attack and if I'm going to spam Charge attacks, I may as well use the Brandish line, cause it's faster.
Only of the reasons the DA is so over hyped is cause it's a sword that has a charge attack like a shotgun. What would sound more "epic" to most people, shooting thorns, swinging some explosions, spinning or shooting 3 energy swords out of your sword. Most people go oh man that sounds cool give me that.
As for FSC, both swords you have work there well, just it's all a matter of play style, it's not a necessity but it's nice to have if you like it and don't get bored of it.
End of Opinion.
@Nicoya:
With ASi, the FoV regular attack hits for some decent damage and isn't hindered by the recovery time that 2swing swords are. Overall dps generally comes off worse (although the fire damage can genuinely make up for that) but swing for swing it does its job nicely without that annoyin' recovery. The only real problem I find is that the range isn't quite as nice as a slow-sword user might be used to and that can make it quite restricting, but other than that it works out really nicely I feel. I run it with ASi:VH and usually damage:VH since I use the family sets and it can really get the killin' done fast, while spreadin' the fire very often; and that fire hurts! I only use the charge when it's go-time, then everythin' just dies :D
@Metagenic/Grenze:
You don't need ASi on heavy swords as such, but it takes away the drawback they have. They already have high damage, but are slow. ASi removes the slow component and lets you hit at a reasonable speed. It's more about not feeling clunky though, with no ASi you swing and there's a lot of fish-tailing effect, feels like the sword is draggin' you around and recovery times can get your face punched, even with a lot of practice. ASi lets you cover the tracks of recovery and generally be more nimble; it doesn't remove the "defensive" role of the sword though, it just mitigates some of the drawbacks.
So what guns go well with DA? I abandoned my AP because of its hybrid damage and the fact that it's likely going to be changed soon, making it all but useless. Right now I'm leaning toward an alchemer. I wanted Magma, but it wouldn't do me any good in FSC, so it's either Nova or Storm.
And no, don't even think about suggesting Polaris.
You have an elemental sword. Wouldn't it be better to go with shadow? (Umbra) Or piercing? (callahan/ blitz)
Guess it's back to my old Levi/Polaris combo then.
So you asked everyone to take time out of their day to help you, listened to everyone explain exactly why the DA is superior, then told everyone to pick out a gun for you and said "And no, don't even think about suggesting Polaris." without even giving a reason? I use a DA and a Polaris in the same loadout all the time, and they've both served me wonderfully.
And now decide to just keep levi/polaris anyway?
Good luck to you, then. *rolls eyes*
Hail driver. The ice makes it good in FSC, as it can be used to freeze Duke to help out with that. It can also be used to freeze turrets, and other things like that in construct areas.
Or maybe blitz. Because of duke.
Or neutralizer. Because it looks cool.
Don't get hail for the freeze. If you want freeze, get a shivermist. Otherwise, dps'ing with hail driver means totally ignoring the freeze effect.
Is this for fsc? Going btb/ff and polaris if you want to cover every damage type necessary there. All elemental works in fsc, because there is only about 5 wolvers in the entire fsc, and nothing else that resists elemental should pose a challenge.
practice to always 1. use charge 2. first swing -> shield. Then use second swing only if you know you knocked all enemies close to you that they cancel their attack. The best thing about heavy sword is that you can swing 2 - 4 monster at once, hence you can create safe distance always.