Spiral Knights - Sudaruska: The Highlander Loadout

Sudaruska: The Highlander Loadout

74 replies [Last post]

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:06

Darkbrady

Loadout name? You need to be brave, brutal and absolutely convince yourself that you're immortal. Do that, and you can take down the masses

Inspired by a discussion here, that I actually said as a joke first, then as I was typing it I thought "hey.....sounds fun!"
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/34217

Important Note:
Due to alarming amounts of confusion from the forums and ingame, and the general SK community about the difference between "damage" and "dps" I'd like to point out that in this post I'll mention "damage" often. When I say this, I mean raw damage numbers. If/when "dps" comes up, that will be "damage per second" and the overall ability to kill fast. The Sudaruska is a fairly high damaging weapon, but due to balancing issues, has far lower dps than other possible weapons. This sounds like a bad thing from the start, but there's other benefits to this build than high dps, which I'll get into shortly.

BEFORE WE START!
Let me just say that there's no TL;DR, as I go fairly in-depth about why this build is workable and how to utilise it to its best, in ways that circumvent most of the typical troika related problems, so if you cbf reading all of this, then don't feel obliged to; but don't skip past then make a post raging about something that I've explained in this thread.
Hey, at least it's not a big wall of text! I've tried to format it so it's an easy read :)

The loadout:

Weapons
Sudaruska: ASi:low
Volcanic Pepperbox: ASi:low (Wish I had CTR :( )
Electron Vortex
Shivermist CTR:med
Armour
Vog Cub Set(Or appropriate family set)
Shield
BTS (Or Swifty, if using Damage/Defence sets)
Trinkies
E-Slash
E-Bomb Focus

Overview
Sudaruska: CTR:Med, ASi:Ultra, Damage:VH
Volcanic Pepperbox: CTR:Med, ASi:lo
Electron Vortex: CTR:VH
Shiver: CTR:Max!

Now, let's analyse this loadout
Those all all some pretty nice stats, considering the sources. Also note that the build is normal type based (the shock spasms will do elemental damage, but they're there to interrupt and slow down, not dps, and the vortex/thaw will do elemental damage, but again; not the dps factor), which means that this is universally sustainable damage, and there's no worry of gray damages popping up, which is a nice factor to keep in mind. This will also mean you're being denied orange damages, but with the style of this build, that shouldn't be too much of an issue :)

With this loadout, the sword hits fast compared to a regular speed troika line, and extremely hard per swing; run face-first into something and you'll knock lumps out of them and then send them far away enough to recover; the recovery time being pretty manageable. The DPS of the weapon is not as high as fast swords, nowhere will I claim that, but it makes up for that with certain advantages that fast swords lack.

The gun is a utility, for when getting up close just isn't an option, or to separate things out, or kiting. The reason I'm choosing Volcanic Pepper over Blitz is to keep the normal damage, having nothing strong against attacks.
The ability to spread fire in virtually every attack lets you keep a DoT on top of everythin' else your doing, in case there's a time where you have to fall back.
The weird shooting style of the pepperbox also allows it to catch dodgers in a way that single bullet guns will not, which is exactly what we want with this build.
The charge of the pepperbox is also incredibly useful, pulling monsters straight towards you while interrupting/knocking them down, allowing a quick switch to the sword and KB them back again (which, by this point, should kill them). This is handy for Scorpion style (Mortal Kombat, anyone?) yanking select enemies towards you.

The bombs are key to the success of this build.
No matter how hard hitting or fast swinging you get this, nippy enemies such as Kats and Devils are simply always gunna be able to create problems more than baddies such as Zombies.
So enter the control bombs. Without being damage based, we only need to worry about CTR, which only takes one trinky slot and +10 to make reasonable. Shivermist will lock things down and allow you to pick off healers (and by that, I mean send to the other side of the room) and more tactically place swings or charges.

The electron is the beauty though. The KB of the first swing isn't enough to push them out of the vortex, allowing you a guaranteed second swing that will only *just* knock them out of the vortex, where they'll probably be pulled back in, and shocked.
Or, you can take the time they're locked down to charge up the sword and unless the slam to its absolutely fullest potential: ever slammed a VH heavy sword into a huge group full of *shocked* enemies?
Things die.

The shield?
You actually don't need that much. Swiftstrike will take a hit or two (depending what, obviously) in T3, allowing you to use it against bullets and such as needed so you're not completely shieldless, and it'll allow you to shieldbump stuff, but overall, the KB from the sword alone should be covering crowds plenty to allow you space, instead of the need to shield counter-attacks. While sending everything far off, you actually spend a surprisingly little amount of time being attacked, as mentioned by the Suda-user in the aforementioned Suggestions post, so swiftstrike is completely viable for this build.

Yes, it is risky being with a shield, and missing swipes will punish you, but then again...isn't that the same with everything? Screw up and you'll feel the pain, nothing's different here. The only real downfall is the lack of shield, but you're given a room-sized KB, stun chances and huge damage per hit, as well as two control bombs that can very easily keep you safe.

Considerations?
Switching to Vog Cub over Snarby/Skolver/Family
This was an initial thought, since Vog Cub+BTS would provide a shield and only one level of bonuses less, but when you consider that each bonus level does count up to making this work, it becomes a heavy loss, especially when the swiftstrike affects the gun as well, allowing everything you do to be quick quite and nippy, despite the weapons in question.
Also note that considering this build uses a sword and gun, and is very light on the shield, this is a perfect loadout for using family sets, keeping the damage bonuses of both your weapons (and even the bombs!) at VH~Max and boosting your defence/resistances in that area.

Why Sudaruska, and not a "good sword"?
Well, the thing most people whine about is the DPS of the weapon, it being vastly lower than fast weapons. This isn't anything new, the game does favour fast weapons over slow for raw dps, but consider that the DA/GF are still widely used despite being slow. It has less raw dps, but it brings advantages to the table that fast swords simply don't.
The KB keeps mobs out of reach of you constantly, whilst the reach of the sword itself allows you to remain within reach of them.
The swing radius is enormous, letting you catch enemies in more directions, as well as clip side enemies in groups.
The charge attack is phenomenally powerful for a single swing and leaves the enemies stunned afterwards, making further regular attacks a joke. This is usually ignored because of the difficulty to perform, but the control bombs create this opening for you without hassle or effort; you can charge attack every group of enemies you want.
Shock and Freeze are the two perfect status' to deal with this, slowing enemies down and interrupting them perpetually, letting the slow sword do its work much easier.
And finally?
It's different than the standard button masher, and is actually really fun to play :)

If you managed to make it through all of that, fire away your opinions and suggestions.
Note, that I am by no means saying this is the best build in the game blah blah blah, but I am trying to improvise a viable build that is on par with current loadouts, and can be implemented into current games, despite using otherwise underpowered gear.
Also, remember that whatever I'm saying from this is based off of my personal experience, and that I'm using un-upgraded gear: 4* set and sword etc. Once this is all 5* and maxed, it will only be better; saying that, try and not compare it to an already 5* set with amazing UVs.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:31

Bopp

"extremely hard"

Darkbrady, I admire your attempt to create a novel loadout. I have not thoroughly analyzed it, and I am not criticizing it. I just want to address one thing:

"The sword hits fast, and extremely hard"

When you say "extremely hard", you mean "with much knockback". You don't mean "for high damage". In case any impressionable youths are reading your post, I don't want them to be misled.

(The damage on Sudaruska/Triglav is pretty bad. The only aspect of its damage that is even competitive with other swords is damage-on-first-swing-against-neutral-monster. On every other measure of damage --- damage on second swing against neutral monster, damage on any swing against preferred monsters, damage per combo against any monsters, damage per second --- Sudaruska/Triglav is not competitive.)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:33

Blaze-Breaker

You know, I think I'll have

You know, I think I'll have to investigate the troika lines sometime. They sound interesting.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 21:57

Darkbrady

@Bopp:You're absolutely

EDIT:
Another wall here, I'm finding I have too much to say! D:
Also, I'm not taking what you said as an attack, so don't see this as me being overly defensive, I'm just trying to explain and iron out the details in this plan, but as you say, it certainly is not about the overall DPS.

@Bopp:
You're absolutely right, I worded that vaguely.
I meant it as compared to a regular khorovod just sitting there on it's own, it will hit much faster; a very reasonable swingspeed, considering the main problem of the troika is that it swings TOO slowly.

However, the damage is standing up very nicely. With only VH Damage (when Max! is entirely possible with a 5* sword set) it actually is hitting crazy hard. Like I said, most people look too much into the overall DPS of the weapon, whereas the raw damage itself is matching up nicely. Taking any enemy I find in strat5 on a solo run (with the exception of, say rockslimes, lumbers..) the second swing kills them. Group them up and the secondswing clears the room.
Anything that manages to survive that second swing gets KBd far away enough from me that it will not get a hit in before I can recover and either shield or rush for another attack.

As for actual damage?
I'm having trouble coping with this accusation unless the Suda itself has far less damage than the khorovod.
Just jumped into a random D18 gate and got a Dstrux Zone. Pulled out my 5* acheron with the exact same loadout (this acheron btw, has max! damage against Gremlins) and it was hittin' 280~320 (iirc). It was hitting fairly fast, but when they grouped around me, it started to fail me fast.
Khorovod, only has VH damage (two damage levels less and 4* instead of 5*) and it was rockin' 220s for the first swing and 250s for the second.

Now, that's hitting 60 less damage for two levels of damage, a damage type bonus and being a full weapon * less. 60 damage isn't massive, considering the percentile and how much "less" it was at. 5*, keep both weapons at VH and let the damage be neutral and that 60 will rapidly dry up.
Factor in the fact that acheron *had* to shield against groups, and that the khorovod's first swing alone was KBing them back far enough that their attacks missed (including their second combo swing) and I was walking into groups and just swingin' at everythin'.

Now, I'm not great with swords at all, which I can easily admit may be a factor, but as I see it, the slow swords aren't made for huge dps, they were made for huge raw damage per swing. The overall dps loss is made up for by the KB and massive swing radius' that the fast swords completely lack.
1v1, fast swords will probably always be that bit faster, sure. But walkin' into a group, and there's more to consider than damage alone.

Although I will edit my miswording.

EDIT:
Just had a gremlin pull up a healing circle. fast swords, in my experience, do little to counter this, short of waiting for them to leave, or shieldbumping. Handy wee khorovod had the circle empty it two swings :)

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:19

Alynn

hey

While I dont have the same loadout as you do, I have tried to go for pure hack n slash type of loadout a few times

mine was this:
Swiftstrike buckler
DA
Faust
Electron Bomb
Vog cap + coat

I dont use any status CC or guns for long range attack

I basically keep dropping electron bomb and gradually get all the mobs (or as much as the bomb can suck) into 1 place. This usually take 2-5 drops depending on the spawn location. Then I just click my right mouse key as fast as i can and just charge into the mob.
I have only tested this out in FSC and RJP but it works pretty well when you solo.

once i get the mob into place with electron, i do the 2 combo of DA/Faust, and then electron again. Most of the time, the knockback from the swords dont spread the monsters out that much so I can bring them back with just 1 bomb drop.

Its actually pretty fun to use but its dangerous/hard to use against the following monsters:

Lumbers: when theres 1 in your vortex, it usually will prevent you from knocking monsters around/behind it and may get you hit
Slags: its not a problem if they use normal swipe attack, its problematic when they use their breath attack in the vortex so it basically creates a ring of fire that you cant get close to
T3 trojans in FSC: situation 1, they use that buff thing and knock all the slags out of my vortex and i end up whacking the trojan shield and get whacked on the head by trojan. situation 2: they just charge right out and hit me T.T sometimes long with few slags
Blast Cubes: if they explode within your vortex or their after-death jelly drops explode near/in your vortex, it can cause some problems
Giant colonies:ya........spin+thorn attack = pain in the ass and sometimes you cant knock them down properly. and they move around alot too T.T

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:26

Darkbrady

So far I've found a large

So far I've found a large group of Kats to be teh hardest to manage. They're able to jump out of vortexes, so Shiver is a must with them, but being able to still shoot at you; a large crowd shooting 3 at a time is a huge wave of bullets to avoid (since blocking will break the shield after 1/2 hits tops). Good thing is they die in two swings or less, but a crowd of them gets unmanageable fast if you let them spread out too much.

Not tried this against lichens yet, but have a few ideas how it'll go.

Not tried in FSC or against trojans so I've no idea. Trojans I'd probably just rely on the Shiver and hit them with a charge.

Zombie breath attacks are a hassle no matter what when they burp at you I've found, but since the first swing cancels that attack it's just a matter of being pre-emptive.

Lumbers are..well, I've not had much of a problem with them, but I don't vortex them as much. I usually just freeze them if there's a crowd, or am just swinging them to death. I still move and swing faster than them, and the KB exceeds their reach so dealing with them outside of vortexes seems like the way to go.

Sat, 01/21/2012 - 22:33

Alynn

oh ya kats

i havnt tried this on kats or with my shiv
main reason i dont use shiv cause if i dont knock them back, i usually get hit. ESPECIALLY in FSC. Shiv usually refreeze them faster than you can swing so i havnt used it much

for kats, my problem is the same as yours. They fly out, and they go everywhere and cover the screen with bullets. And while you try to dodge the bullets, they fly at you and its annoying as hell.

maybe we can run together sometimes and see how well your/my loadout works :P

my IGN is Alynn

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:05

Darkbrady

Give shiver a try. It does

Give shiver a try. It does refreeze before they get KBd, but that's the beauty!
Just need to sneak up behind them, then you get full 180 swing arc on everythin' in there, and don't have to worry about them bein' KBd away, or turnin' around, or attackin'!

Works nicely. Doesnae add any more damage and doesn't help speed up the kills as much as the vortex, but its a safe-mode, for when things are too out of hand, or something like Kats come by.

And puppies. Oh god, the puppies in parties D:

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:07

Tsubasa-No-Me

AAAHahahaha!

Well... its nice to find that i post, someone responds... 24 hours later that there's a whole new thread talking about what i love best! ^-^

Even more hilarious is that while this thread was propagating? (Wrong word, sorry!) i when and built a Swiftstrike and smashed Vana...

I get an ultra boost ATM for my suda, and it really just shreds everything...

Sooo... some notes...

I use the Iron Slug to combo with the knockback from my Suda... i knock them across the room and then the insta hit splash damage finishes ~4 monsters per combo... neato!

I only have 2 slots sooo... no bomb... and i dont like them any who... ^-^

****ALSO! IMPORTANT!****
They have utterly removed the stun/freeze on all troika 2nd hits... this makes me sooo sad... Y-Y

I am also considering trying to get Mercurial mail for the walking speed boost... i hear its not much, but to have a ninja claymore and be speeding past others... i can race in on my targets.... >:3

I realize this must be a erratic and not so understandable post... but i'm not thinking in words ATM and i'm tired...

Later!
~Tsu

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:20

Darkbrady

ASi:VH is workin' nicely for

ASi:VH is workin' nicely for me right now; I could up it to max with a trinky, but I think keeping the bombs CTR at VH is worth it overall, they do an immense amount to cover more awkward areas and allow clearance in groups.

Interesting about using the Slug; just goin' for a permanant knockback feel? I chose my gun more to compliment the sword, rather than enhance it; the pepperbox lets me slow down enemies, let them burn, then have the option to yank them towards me so I can knock them back again.

Thought about the merc set myself actually, but with only a medium speed boost for the full 5* set, I couldn't help but feel that losing the damage bonuses from ash tail/my family sets just wouldn't be worth it, altough it would help make dodging so much nicer...

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:27

#10

Tsubasa-No-Me

Well...

When you can recover fast enough... but you cant run to get out of the way.... it gets to be a pain... and the Slug essentially adds another hit to the suda... 131*2 is quite near the suda's 1st hit... unboosted though...

though now i might want that pepperbox to pull them in for another go...

Since we're both on >u<
~Tsu

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 02:49

#11

Darkbrady

(Added in a wee mention on

(Added in a wee mention on Family Sets that I totally forgot about)

Well it depends how you play. If your style is to run and face smash and pound eveyrthin' into the opposite wall, the pepperbox might not work out nicely for you. There's basically no KB, but it will stop them in their tracks, but they can attack through it. Also locks you down while you shoot/charge attack so you might feel a bit restricted if you're aimin' for m.speed.

Then again, if you run around that much, then bein' able to position mobs where you want might do you favours, since you don't use vortexes.

All depends.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 03:09

#12

Tsubasa-No-Me

For that in particular...

i like to use the first swing to bump them all together... then a two hit combo or a charge and the gun... half of them die to the full combo..(the ones i knocked there) and the res go flying and are prey for the Iron slug....

I do love my movement speed... but there are no other guns that deal a lot of raw damage in a short time...

~Tsu

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 04:08

#13

Darkbrady

Here's somethin' for you Tsu

Here's somethin' for you Tsu (or anyone else?)
Trojans!
Just got to FSC to try out my new loadout there and realised that there's virtually nothing I can do to kill Trojans quickly. Right now all I have is shivering them then hittin' them w/ a charged pepperbox; does a few hundred damage and sets them on fire, but compared to my usual DBB-Dizzy which racks near 1k dps, this seems like it'll take *forever*.
Tried usin' the Khoro charge, and the damage was really nice, but since you only get the one hit it, it doesnae compare; the charge attack really is an aoe, not a sniping tool.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 06:07

#14

Milkman

Interesting. Seeing as I have most of this equipment I'll definitely give this a try sometime soon. A few questions:

1. What types of enemy does this work well against and where does it do not so well (I know you already have mention trojans and kats; Any others?)

2. It seems to me that the valiance would be a better choice for a normal gun intended for kiting. Is there a reason it was not chosen?; Do you find the fire ticks make that much of a difference?; Do you use the pepperbox charge often?

3. If I were to use only 3 weapon slots, which bomb would be better: vortex or shiver?

Thanks for sharing your unique loadout! I am always on the look out for some new interesting ones!

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 06:52

#15

Darkbrady

My new costume set to suit my

My new costume set to suit my loadout; i wanted something "monstery" and think this looks nicely with it. It should also go really nicely when the Suda is actually 5* :)
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198037789255/screenshot/65100258...

@Milkman:
Would be good to hear some feedback on it from others. I'm having a bit of trouble atm, but spending my time mostly as a pure bomber, and now switching to slow swords is a big adjustment to make; a lot of my rules have changed and I'm feeling the effects, but I'm still enjoying it :)

TL;DR:
1: Slow/short reach enemies die fast/easy.
Nippy/projectile mobs cause all the problems; mainly the projectiles.
2: Not used many guns, so couldn't say. The fire doesn't do a lot, but it's nice. The drag mechanic on the charge rocks the socks.
3: Vortex. Shiver is control and safety, vortex lets the killing reach a peak.

The rambling version:
1/ This makes mincemeat out of zombies, that includes in FSC. Slower enemies don't stand a chance, or ones with short reach, such as slimes, mech knights, gremlins.
Lumbers are situational. They're generally easy to deal with, but when they're surrounded or there's a few of them, the recovery time becomes a threat.
Kats are manageable with shiver, but without anything to control with, they have a nasty habit of flying past your swings, and potentially sneaking up on you, although they're generally not a problem (even if they take a few missed hits) groups of them firing bullets is a horror, due mainly to the lack of ability to shield. Solution for them is generally lock them down, separate them, or kill them quickly.
Trojans aren't any harder than anything else, it's just that Suda has no real way of killing them quickly. I'm generally just freezing them and launchin' a pepperbox charge into them.
Devils are the main concern, however that may be a personal problem; no matter what the build or class, I just can't keep up with them when they surround me; their projectiles fly fast and with little warning, and typically I have low shadow defence so they hit me hard. Hopefully this will be somewhat mitigated with Snarble armour. They're hard mainly, again, due to the lack of shielding, but dodging them is easier than I ever expected, now that I'm being forced to. Should also note that even the first swing seems to interrupt their throws, and the wide arcs lets you catch their dodges.

2/ Not a gun expert. When I made this build, I had a blackhawk and a blaster in my inventory. I went with autogun originally planning on blitz, to take full advantage of the shield's bonus and speed up a slow gun. I found that the Blackhawk didnae really speed up that much from not using the Swift, but you really notice it with static guns. Valiance itself I've never tried, so I couldn't say at all to be honest; this may indeed not be the best gun for this build, I'm just not experienced enough in the guns section. However, I've found that with the ASi at VH, the shots can get off fast and the weird bust angles can catch everything; silkwings, gremlins, wolvers, devils etc. The fire doesn't do *much* damage, but since the chance is per bullet, and not per shot, you're more likely to cause fire than not, meaning it's a regular bonus to stack on top.
I do use the charge fairly often, since the damage of it is actually crazy (around 800~ in FSC, with no gun bonuses) and virtually guarantees fire (outside FSC, obv), and the drag mechanism is amazing; I'm totally in love with my Pepperbox (including the name <3 ). The drag tool on Pepperbox, the KB on the sword, and the two bombs give me a lot of control over the field, which I like.
If you do try the Valiance, let me know how it runs :)

3/ I'd probably have to take the vortex.
The shiver can be used absolutely everywhere, against everything and used easily at that, whereas the Vortex can be used most places (Kats are the main thing that avoid it) and is that bit harder to use, but the difference in usefulness is huge. The shock is actually a fairly small bonus, but nice to let you walk around with them interrupted (especially when they're fireshocked), but the vortex pulling them together in thick clumps allows you to just walk into them and get two full combos off, then let the vortex explode; so far, not much survives that.
Also, the vortex allows the most fully-efficient sword charge, allowing you to slam it in the middle of half a dozen enemies at once; clears the room!

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 07:08

#16

Bopp

switch Suda out for DA/GF based on level?

Darkbrady, I don't know about Khorovod vs. Sudaruska. I'm comparing Sudaruska to Final Flourish/Barbarous Thorn Blade, Divine Avenger, Combuster/Voltedge/Glacius, Gran Faust, Acheron. For example, here are depth-28 damage data from the wiki:

*Sudaruska: 258, 321
*DA/GF vs. neutral: 234, 363
*Comb/Volt/Glac/Ach vs. neutral: 203, 203, 292
*FF/BTB vs. neutral: 203, 203, 258

So Sudaruska has a nice first hit, but a weak combo overall. And that's not even letting the other weapons take advantage of their damage type. When we do that, Sudaruska is tragically bad:

*Sudaruska: 258, 321
*DA/GF vs. preferred: 328, 445
*Comb/Volt/Glac/Ach vs. preferred: 292, 292, 382
*FF/BTB vs. preferred: 285, 285, 340

Of course, your loadout uses only one sword, so it's harder to take advantage of monster weaknesses. I wonder whether you could switch the Sudaruska out for either Divine Avenger or Gran Faust, depending on the level, to increase your damage output? Or would that hurt the knockback part of your plan? I'm honestly asking. Because a lot of people, who might consider trying your idea, already have DA/GF.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 07:19

#17

Darkbrady

Again Bopp, you're just

Again Bopp, you're just looking at the damage. Suda will never compare in overall damage, either by dps or combo definitely, so it's easy to focus on the numbers and be put off.
When you're against, say JK, or attackin' a trojan, it certainly will never pan out as nicely as...well, any of the fast swords that have better combos; it just won't.
But that's for two reasons:
a/ This is a group/aoe build, focussed on the floors themselves and groups
2/ As mentioned, it's not a dps weapon, so focussing on just dealing as much damage as possible isn't a good plan for it.

The reason that lets this become useful is that it's quite safe to use. Like my example in the Dstrux Zone; the overall combo damage of my Acheron was far, far higher, but with low knockback and needing three attacks for the combo/interrupt, it resulted in a lot of blocking for groups. The Khoro can walk in and take one 180 degree swing and just send everything flying. The damage isn't as high, but you just hit 6 monsters instead of 2/3; count the total damage per combo on heads hit and the actual damage starts racking up.
It's like saying that Nitronome doesn't do much damage, but forgetting to account for the fact that it's meant to be hitting ten things, not one.
Although it does still come down to more than the damage itself, there is the KB factor. A lot of enemy attacks actually get interrupted on the first swing of the khorovod, and if not, the certainly on the second swing; that's while sending them back far.
It's letting you keep groups controlled nicely and denying them any room or attacks.

And I accept that normal damage isn't fantastic, but the raw damage per swing does do it some justice still, and also means you're absolutely never hitting grays, which is somewhat of a benefit, but regardless, you never find yourself thinkin' "eesh, that hit did nothing".

Like I said though, this isn't meant to be the best build; compare it against a cookie-cutter vog/brandish line and yeah, s'very probable it won't come close, but it has elements of gameplay that other builds lack; the DA/GF don't have the same kind of KB or interrupt mechanics for example, and the swing reach just isnae as high.
And the charge is just...really, really fun. Nigh impossible to do regularly, but with a vortex you really get to see it hit. Even on T2 you can rock 500~ damage on whatever it hits, that's on top of interruption and being sent to the farthest away hard place. Great fun for a charge!

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 07:35

#18

Bopp

so we agree

"Again Bopp, you're just looking at the damage."

Yes, exactly. I said so in my first post. I am not criticizing the holistic effect of the loadout. I am just trying to make sure that people aren't misled about the damage, which is an important consideration, but not the only consideration, in choosing a loadout. Indeed, your loadout is principally about crowd control rather than damage, and I find it interesting for that reason. So we largely agree.

DA/GF also have wide swings that damage multiple monsters in a crowd. This is the only way they can hold their own against the Brandishes. So I'm still not convinced that Sudaruska does higher damage. But you're saying that Sudaruska has bigger knockback on those swings, and that's what's important. See, I'm trying to help you clarify your argument.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 07:40

#19

Irokwe

sounds fun, might try it. But do l need those uvs?

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 07:46

#20

Darkbrady

@Bopp: Oh no, I'm not tryin'

@Bopp:
Oh no, I'm not tryin' to argue, just tryin' to explain/discuss it. Damage is typically the most concerned about factor, and it's definitely not the prime of Suda; the only reason it has high damage per swing is to make up for the fact that it's dps/combo damage is low; if it had low damage per swing as well it'd be completely useless.
I don't want to go misleading people either, saying it's a high damage build, s'why I went into depth in my OP, to try and get across that there's more to the bulid than just big numbers.

The DA/GF do have swings, but not as wide/far-reaching, and the KBs certainly aren't quite as large. The charge attack is also very different and has about the highest single KB I can think of (anything directly hit will juts fly off screen, if possible). Consider it like...a more exetreme-sized version of the Sealed line, with a different charge! I just...don't find the Sealed line to have quite the same...striking force, as it were.

@Odin:
The UVs aren't necessary, I'm only using low's after all, so it won't count for too much in the end, certainly not enough to make the build worthless without them.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 08:27

#21

Bopp

but see what you did?

"the only reason it has high damage per swing is to make up for the fact that it's dps/combo damage is low; if it had low damage per swing as well it'd be completely useless."

"there's more to the bulid than just big numbers"

See, but you keep making statements like this. You will convince more people, if you are forthright about the drawbacks, while you tout the advantages. Instead of saying "Sudaruska has good damage, huge knockback, and good interrupting", say "Sudaruska has poor damage, but huge knockback and good interrupting", and then make your case. The casual skimmer of your mega-posts will give your idea a fair chance, instead of dismissing it out of hand.

Well, we've dwelt long enough on this minor point. I hope that you get good feedback on the important aspects of your loadout. Cheers.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 08:51

#22

Darkbrady

I guess it's down to how you

I guess it's down to how you take it I suppose.
In my mind, I am being clear, by saying good damage from the raw numbers aspect, but avoid the term dps.
I guess that the community in SK just sees "damage" as one and the same; I'm too used to games where, when we discuss things in-depth, there's a very clear line between the two but that's my issue from past experience, shouldn't be bringing it upon here. Will keep a mind for that in the future; our past "Dragonscale Shield" thread should have taught me this much already!

But aye! It's an interesting build to be sure, and I'm startin' to slowly get the hang of it (I'm not kiddin', I suck with swords on a normal day, so this is a double-learning experience for me!) but I definitely do like the ability to have sheer control of the field, with the mix of weapons I've chosen.
Now all I gotta do is get on my alt and ragecraft a perfect swiftstrike! D:

And mega-posts? :(
I do ramble too much, don't I? QQ

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 10:26

#23

Alynn

if you want pure DPS

this is the most fun way to kill you can go for in FSC(although NOT fastest)

2 party members take turns using vortex bomb to herd all the monsters in(preferably electron so the monsters dont fly out at the end)

1 party member remain and continue the bombing to keep them together(preferably someone with CTR VH)

all 3 other party members charge FoV/Blitz

the remaining party member bomb one last time and charge Fov/Blitz

4 people from 4 directions let lose their FoV/Blitz

insta kill

although it takes a while to set up, its fun seeing things die instantly and a mass of stuff drop on the floor. If there are trojans in the mob, it takes some aiming and timing to kill them alone with the rest of the stuff in the vortex

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 11:10

#24

Demonicsothe

Alynn, this isn't a loadout

Alynn, this isn't a loadout for dps'ing. This, if I read it correctly, seems to be a solo loadout. One, that differs from outright killing with huge dps. Keep your own guides to your own threads.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 11:41

#25

Bopp

how can this keep happening?

"In my mind, I am being clear, by saying good damage from the raw numbers aspect, but avoid the term dps."

Once again: I have been talking only about damage, but I have NOT been talking only about DPS. I have been talking about MANY different practical measures of damage. As I demonstrated in post #16 above, the Sudaruska is poor in EVERY measure of damage except one: first-swing-against-neutral-enemies. (Its charge attack also does far less damage than DA's or GF's.) It does NOT have "good damage from the raw numbers aspect".

Your loadout isn't good because of Sudaruska's good damage; it's good DESPITE Sudaruska's poor damage. I will not comment further on the matter. Cheers.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 12:09

#26

Darkbrady

@Demonicsothe:Seems to work

@Demonicsothe:
Seems to work really nicely in soloing, since you're pretty much guaranteed to one-combo everything; in a duo party, things can take maybe an extra hit or two and it's alright; am usin' this loadout with my girl, who's just a pure swordy and it seems to be workin' nicely enough.
Yet to try it with 3~4 people, but with the current damage I'm doin', I don't see it goin' well enough; I'd need 5* stuff for sure to pull off FSC with more than two people right now.
Soon as I get some of the gear up'd though, I'll be trying it inl arger parties, but it's not much of a worry personally anyaways, I usually just do runs w/ my girl, so as long as my loadouts are at least duo-sufficient it should be grand!

@Bopp:
Did you read anything past the first line of what I said?
I started by saying WHY I was wording things in a way that's clearly confusing you, then explained myself as such due to it being old habits, since terminology usage is obviously different in this community, then finished by saying I'd try to avoid it.
Did...you just ignore all that, really? Cuz from what you just said, it looks like you read one line and skipped to the "post" button...

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 12:48

#27

Irokwe

l doubt he'd do that.

I don't want to get into this argument but l think Bopp is saying "dps fails" and you are saying "damage is great"

And you're arguing about totally different stuff even though you are both agreeing without knowing it....

If that's not the point, l'm sorry, and I'll just shut up.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 13:17

#28

Bopp

like a moth to flame

Darkbrady, what is this power you have over me? :) I did read all of your post, but the part after the first line was confusing:

"In my mind, I am being clear, by saying good damage from the raw numbers aspect, but avoid the term dps.
I guess that the community in SK just sees "damage" as one and the same; I'm too used to games where, when we discuss things in-depth, there's a very clear line between the two"

One and the same as what? Between the two what? It was unclear to me. So I read it as: "The SK community sees damage as being just DPS, but other game communities use multiple measures of damage, including DPS but not limited to DPS." Isn't that what you meant?

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 13:52

#29

Darkbrady

Well, it seems to be the same

Well, it seems to be the same kind of confusion as this thread from a while back where I said the word "damage" and BSoD heard "dps". I actually even asked guildies and randomers and Haven and it does seem to be a common thing here that when people say "damage" they're actually talking about dps in general; the full out damage *potential*.

However, in all my previous games, in equipment discussions, when someone said "damage" it was always commonly understood that they actually meant the single hit damage; the actual visible numbers from that one hit, disregarding dps and secondaries etc, and that it was an entirely separate entity from "dps".
It just seems that my old habits are causing confusion here, where people seem to worry less about "damage" as I see it and just skip straight to dps, which is what keeps causing the issue.

When I said about the Suda having "high damage to make up for being otherwise slow/crap" i meant that the simple raw damage numbers were only reaching high numbers that are comparable to other weapons to counter the fact that it's otherwise crap. It's eaxctly what you said; the loadout works despite the low damage, because of the other factors.

Odin's kinda right; we're both saying the exact same things, but using such different wordings that we're not used to, and are actually confusin' the hell out of each other, but fact is we're on the same page (....i think o_o).

That's all that's relevant to our wee tangent, at least. Eveyrthin' from here is just more thread-related about my tests with fast swords and other slow swords, another mega-post, if you cbf with it!

~~~

I have been playing around with other weapons as well to compare.
The fast swings are invariably better at killing small groups or solo mobs, there's no competition. However, due to the lack of radius and KB, when a group mob comes in, the huge arcs of the slow swingers are just taking them down faster. The fast-swords do hit for more per hit/combo (being 5* and preferred damage) but the actual difference is pretty low (20%, or thereabouts?), so that a large arc attack hitting 5 enemies twice will still kill them all, whereas the fast swingers will kill them in still only two hits, but each individually faster.
It's the common aoe principle as far as damage spread goes. The slow swords are definitely the aoe'rs, and the fast swords are for small groups.
Even with a * higher and preferred damage, I simply could not kill large groups as fast as with the slow sword.

That much we know.
For the alternative slow swords, which I think is your main thing: why Suda and not GA/DF?
Well I don't have the 5* Sealed lines myself, so I can't say about their range. At 4*, their ranges are roughly the same, but there's something about the arc of Suda; it just seems to swing that bit wider, allowing it to clip more enemies. This may just be my imagination, but with the Avenger, I'm finding that I'm plowing through the middle of groups, whereas with the Khoro I'm just hitting everything.
The damage output is pretty inarguable. On preferred enemies, the Sealed does more, at pretty much the same speed. Even on bad type enemies, it's the similar situation of rounding figures rule, meaning they don't even kill that much slower, however that also applies to the vice versa; the damage may certainly be higher with the Sealeds, but to a degree that it's not saving any considerable amount of time or swings.
From just normal attacks alone, it really just does seem to be about two special types and a normal, from the days before the Arsenal stations.

The main thing, I suppose, is the charge attacks. Apparently the Suda's had the chance to stun removed from 2nd hit, which seems kinda...horrible, considerin' GF retains that bonus. The GF/DA have their "stand back and fire" style of charges, with pretty serious damage and a push back, while the Suda has a bomb-style rad aoe with flatrate damage and a nice stun bonus, with crazy high KB.
I guess the Sealed line was always preferred because their charges are generally far, far easier to execute and having higher raw damage comes off nicely.
However I do still like the rad style damage that works nicely with the vortex, and the stun compliments the speed of the weapon well, allowing further attacks with greater ease than before.

I digress, I'm still playing about with the Avenger; this build could easily enough work with any slow sword as things show right now, depending on which charge you like more, mostly. Will keep testing them out.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 14:24

#30

Bopp

okay

In post #1 above, I laid out several ways to measure damage, including damage-on-first-swing (your notion from other games), damage-per-second (what you believe the SK community focuses on), and other ways. This is the multifaceted notion of "damage" that I've been using in this entire thread. I'm glad to hear that our argument is just a misunderstanding about terminology.

As to your most recent post, I look forward to your testing this loadout with DA/GF (see my post #16). Maybe you could post some video, showing how they behave differently from Sudaruska/Triglav in this loadout.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 15:00

#31

Darkbrady

I think I'm going to need to

I think I'm going to need to get them both to 5* before I get any significant results or differences.
Ignoring charge attacks and looking purely at normal attacks, so far there's no tangible difference.

That's to say, any damage gain/loss is redundant. Both of them are hitting high enough numbers by now (and at the same speed) that they're killing at the same speeds.
I.e, both of them take a full combo to kill something. Even though the Avenger is quite noticeably outdamaging the Khoro on ele-weak mobs, the damage is kept up enough still for them to both kill in two hits. Until one of them drops or gains a swing to the kill count, there'll be no important difference beyond charges.
Wonderin' if 5*s will be different or pull the same ploy...

EDIT:
Finally just got a different kill count in a 2man GY; took a single extra first-swing on the khoro, when the Avenger was taking over 2 combos.
Pretty small difference; will show up more in larger parties.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 17:10

#32

Azkaellion

...a lurker emerges...

Ahhhh, a gathering place for Sudaruska fans!
In recent times I to have tried the superheavy loadout. I'm planning to get a Elite Quick Strike Module or two tonight, but already this loadout is fun. I've been pairing it with my Graviton Vortex and a stratum appropriate gun: I lurv it! Looking at getting a Iron Slug, as Tsubasa-No-Me seems to reccomend it very highly, and I do like my Callahan. I'm thinking more speed could be very helpful as opposed to more damage here.

~Az

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 17:51

#33

Fehzor

http://i.imgur.com/dadIA.jpg

I've got the bombs too, so that I can switch it all out. I don't have the matching armor, but everything else, yeah. And it works ok, though I don't have weapon slots/trinkets. Sometimes I use chaos cloak instead of AotF with it.... is very good, if you have a sword and a gun.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 19:58

#34

Realnight

@Bopp I'd like to see the

@Bopp I'd like to see the damage difference between a DA and Sudaruska in actual swings though instead of the numbers. Because even when we're comparing the Sudaruska vs. DA(max potential) we're only seeing a 20% difference in damage. So that means it'll take an extra swing every 4 swings and Darkbrandy is talking about killing things in 4 or less. So maybe this whole damage difference doesn't matter as much as the raw numbers make it seem - or at least in solo.

In groups or against bosses I can see this being a problem but I don't think thats the style this particular build is going after anyway so the point may be moot.

It's like the difference between the leviathan blade and CIV - the damage difference is so small that you usually don't see it affect how many swings it takes to kill things.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 20:02

#35

Bopp

agreed

I agree that the number you really care about is swings-to-kill, not raw damage-dealt. Darkbrady comments some on this in post #31 above. Sometimes he sees differences between DA and Sudaruska in swings-to-kill, and sometimes not.

If monsters are partially damaged (after weaker attacks from you or your teammates), then that further complicates the question.

Sun, 01/22/2012 - 20:56

#36

Azkaellion

...a lurker emerges...

Took this loadout into Tier2 of the current Vana gate... Undead & Fiends.
Weapons
Sword: Sudaruska UV Undead Low
Gun: Argent Peacemaker UV Construct Low
Bomb: Shivermist Buster UV Undead Very High
Shield: Swiftstrike Buckler UV Stun Low
Helm: Deadshot Chapeau UV Pierce Low (COSTUME: WOLVER CAP)
Armour: Deadshot Mantle (COSTUME: WOLVER COAT w/Tails Tails, Pumpkin Bomb Bandolier)
Trinket: Elite Quick Strike Module

http://steamcommunity.com/id/azkaellion/screenshot/649876689869605291?ta...

Mon, 01/23/2012 - 00:09

#37

Tsubasa-No-Me

A note about the slug...

Pros:
*longer range
*deals damage = to all
*splash damage
*insta-vortex charge
*interrupts ALL turrets
*switch-shoot-switch works well

Cons:
*no bonuses...
*Hard to aim? i cant think of any others... O.o

btw... TY bopp for trying to keep things equal and aligned... or perhaps its perspective... sorry i'm still not good with words :/

~Tsu

Mon, 01/23/2012 - 10:04

#38

Darkbrady

Glad that all the Suda fans

Glad that all the Suda fans are havin' fun with this, hopefully it can be further improved upon :)
And from the discussions with Bopp, it seems entirely feasible that this build can work with any heavy sword just the same, if you're going for the preferred damage, different charges etc; but Suda's still oor nice, universally useful all-rounder!

edit:
Also, due to my habits as a bomber, I'd been avoiding status' like shock, like the plague and not caring about stun etc. It's come to my attention that with this build, it seems like stun is *the* worst status to have. Shock isn't that bad, 'cuz you can take a swing between spasm's that KBs everythin' to the hills, and can't block anyways. But stun brings you back down to slower than a non-speeded up version of the sword and that includes the "uselessness" recovery times: ouch!

@Tsuba:
I think what you mean is that it's good that he's being a fair devil's advocate on the topic, without immediately dismissing an unpopular idea and taking serious discussion with it beyond just the numbers.
Also, I may just try getting an Iron Slug myself to try it out. I'm not going to be 5*ing guns any time soon either way so comparing it against my Pepperbox would be interesting.

@Bopp:
Aye, initially I was more concerned with the damage, just because it's the first reaction of everyone to go "oh, but the damage..." but when I started seriously testing the two of them and looking into it, I just realised that the 20% wasn't counting for nearly enough overall. When solo, I simply cannae see any difference at all, mob hp is low enough that the swing2kill are the same, but not low enough that either can get a ohko. In 2mans it only makes a difference on particularly high hp'd mobs. Still to try out on parties to compare against partially damaged monsters, so who knows about that yet, but it could also work out as a benefit for the Suda: the partial damage might not be eonugh to shave down the Avenger, but enough to bring the Khoro swings to match Avenger.

@Realright:
Definitely not a boss option. Even on Trojans it's a pain. I did try it on JK before I realised that even my Pepperbox was insanely faster, although never actually tried out the charge; JK would be a perfect candidate for being Suda charged to the face, being hard to miss and allowing you to stand outwith headbutt distance when you release it. The could ideally be a brilliant group option; not for the dps surely, but allowing to to deal a fair bit of damage on top of utterly destroying nearby mini's and the like, protecting your team.

Tue, 01/24/2012 - 21:27

#39

Otaia

Um, have you Sudaruska users

Um, have you Sudaruska users tried using DA? I read through the part about Sudaruska being different than DA/GF and I couldn't help but think, "that doesn't sound right." So I purchased a Sealed Sword with my stack of Jelly Gems and pulled out the Grintovec that I haven't touched forever and I hit up the Advanced Training Hall. Both weapons have the exact same range, speed, and attack pattern. Unless something changes between 3* and 5*, the only differences between DA and Sudaruska are as follows:

- damage
- damage type
- chance to stun on 2nd hit
- charge attack

This leads me to question why anyone would use a Sudaruska (other than for the sake of not using a popular weapon). I'm totally for different playstyles and stuff, but there is almost no difference between a DA and a Sudaruska in terms of the way you play. You're saying it has a huge range and knockback, and the charge attack is very powerful, but so is DA. It's basically just a weaker, normal-type DA. DA's mixed Normal/Elemental is superior to Sudaruska's Normal. Stun is a very weak status in PvE, and it doesn't even happen that often. The charge attack on DA is well, better. So unless you can't use a different weapon for Gremlins and Beasts ... I don't see what the Sudaruska has to offer.

Tue, 01/24/2012 - 22:28

#40

Darkbrady

It's basically just a weaker,

It's basically just a weaker, normal-type DA

Actually, it's not weaker at all. On neutral type enemies, teh DA hits pretty much what the Suda does. The only thing that matters is the specialised damage, so if you go into an area where there's mobs weak and strong to elemental, DAs damage will yoyo a lot, whereas Suda remains perfectly consistent during all floors and monsters. It's the same as any normal vs. spec argument.

However, the point of the discussion was that the damage differences aren't high enough to matter much; ultimately the swings-to-kill rate changes very minutely, so even having a weak type weapon won't matter that much when the base damage is this high.

So it just comes down to the other factors:
Consistent damage
Charge attack
Physical Appearance

The latter is purely aesthetic, but it obviously counts to a degree when there's little else to factor in. The damage consistency has been discussed alreayd.
The main factor is charge.
And DAs charge is simply not "better".
It's easier to execute, sure, but under the right circumstances (i.e, this build) it's incredibly easy to get off Suda charges whenever you want. The damage is aoe based to quite a large area and has *enormous* knockback and the stun effect may not be massive, but certainly helps when using a slow sword.
DA charge? The initial high damage hit only hits things in a very small area next to you (whereas the Suda launches you forward), and the projectiles really don't hit for that much. The KB is quite nice, but not enough on it's own. Also consider that the charge projectiles are buggy and have a habit of simply disappearing instead of shooting.

Which charge do you like more, pretty much determines which sword to use. Sayin' that, both swords (and GF) do work equally well with this build.

Tue, 01/24/2012 - 23:22

#41

Encross

+1 for originality. TL;DR

+1 for originality.

TL;DR feels good to be a hipster.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 07:14

#42

Bopp

not buggy

"Also consider that the charge projectiles are buggy and have a habit of simply disappearing instead of shooting."

The charge projectiles disappear when you launch the charge with your back against a wall. When you launch a charge with no obstacle behind you, they do not disappear. So the projectiles are not "buggy"; they follow a simple rule that you can work with. This rule was instantiated to prevent DA tricks in FSC, I believe.

But it's true that the DA charge would be better if the projectiles never disappeared.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 12:08

#43

Tenkii

Troika vs Sealed Sword line (slow swords)

Well, the thing most people whine about is the DPS of the weapon, it being vastly lower than fast weapons. This isn't anything new, the game does favour fast weapons over slow for raw dps, but consider that the DA/GF are still widely used despite being slow. It has less raw dps, but it brings advantages to the table that fast swords simply don't.

The difference in actual play:
Sealed Sword line has faster swing/recovery speeds than the Troika line
Troika line has a stronger Slash1 than the Sealed Sword line
Sealed Sword line has a stronger Slash2 than the Troika line.

GF's charge attack sucks due to extra charge time (regular faust is better for that)
DA's charge attack is generally pretty nice - the burst damage and extra projectile followups deal a bunch of damage.
^ both of their charge attack animations can quickly be cancelled by holding/tapping shield at a certain point in the animation.
Sudaruska's charge attack is... knockback.
Triglav's charge can freeze, but it's not really predictable.
^ their charge attacks are non-cancellable, so misses are pretty much fatal.

In general, DA/GF are safer to use, but if you only have space for 1 sword and prefer heavy swords, then the neutral Troika line might be useful.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 13:44

#44

Bopp

once again, to keep us honest

"Troika line has a stronger Slash1 than the Sealed Sword line
Sealed Sword line has a stronger Slash2 than the Troika line."

And once again, to keep us honest, let us note that this is true only against neutral/resistant enemies. Against preferred enemies, the DA/GF damage is significantly higher in every aspect. Here are damage numbers for first swing, second swing, and charge (without projectiles), from the wiki:

Sudaruska: 258, 321, 468
DA/GF neutral enemy: 234, 363, 600
DA/GF preferred enemy: 328, 445, 682

Question: What do we think of the loadout: DA, GF, Electon Vortex, Shivermist Buster? In other words, how important is the gun in your loadout? Because I'd love to get that extra damage in there somehow!

Question: Is the Sudaruska charge fast enough, to let you charge it into your own vortex (when playing solo)? I don't think that DA/GF can do this without some serious CTR. (Sorry if this question's already been answered.)

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 14:38

#45

Tenkii

@DA/GF damage: Yep. In general, DA is just better than both of them lol.

@Q2: As far as charge time, both Sudaruska and Divine Avenger have the same amount of charge time. Sudaruska has a noticeably longer ending lag and wind-up. If you know how to shield-cancel DA's charge ending lag, you can even get in some extra slashes before the projectiles start moving. It's great burst damage for the charge attack.

I remember way back (before the electron vortex), someone tried to make a case for graviton in FSC - bunch up monsters and hit them with DA's charge. It was devastatingly awesome. I think you need something like a CTR:High (total?) to pull that off solo though, but as I haven't tried it myself, that's just an estimate.

Gran Faust's charge is absolutely worthless.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 16:12

#46

Alice-In-Pyroland

I'm not going to read or

I'm not going to read or address the rest of the thread, I just want to take issue with this;

The DA/GF do have swings, but not as wide/far-reaching, and the KBs certainly aren't quite as large.

Is there any actual proof of this? As far as I know even though the Triglav and Sudaruska have longer models than the Sealed Sword line, their hitboxes are exactly the same. I also wasn't under the impression it had more knockback, so if someone would like to do a comparison video that would be nice.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 17:19

#47

Darkbrady

@Echoez: No proof whatsoever,

@Echoez:
No proof whatsoever, going based off of my experience/personal judgement of Khorovod vs. Avenger, I could just have sworn that the Khoro's arc was wider at the sides (as in, hit mobs farther to your sides, whereas the other needed mobs to be closer in front of you), however the DA seems to be catching the same mobs as Khoro now, so either the DA has an equal hitbox, or it's just my imagination entirely. I think I addressed that earlier, (may not have e.e) but I don't blame you for not readin' all these megas.
I can't remember where that was said at all, but if it was hidden somewhere in the OP I'll try look for it and remove/reword it to keep accurate.

@Bopp:
Buggy:
Never knew that rule tbh, however I'd personally still consider that buggy-feeling. There may be a good reason (beyond me what people could do to abuse it mind you...) but all it does is feels restrictive to me and forces me to "plan out" my charges more (altuogh before this I also had some degree of "hope out" too!) whereas the Khoro charge is just a nice, predictable step-slam-KB-stun-kill combo.

Q1: Looking from a purely statistical standpoint, the DAGF loadout looks entirely better for keeping damage permanant and at least one nice charge, but in practcial use, however, I find that I use the gun far too much to afford losing it. If anyone else tries this build and finds they don't for some reason, feel free to chime in, but the gun is integral to the build, the way I run it. The gun, being autogun series, has a pretty seriously huge charge attack damage, so you're safe to hit stuff from a bit of a distance, setting stuff on fire is easy, and shootin' stuff in vortexes is like firing a flame thrower. The charge attacks drag ability is also massive, letting you, for instance, yank a Lumber out of a big crowd, so you can chop it to death.

Q2: Aye, never had any problems with that myself. My Khoro is +10 ofc, but no other CTR bonuses. If the Suda's charge is longer then I couldn't say, but the Khoro can get in with some very slightly time to spare, assuming you pre-switch and start charging before the vortex det's. Haven't actually tried it with the DA yet as the projectiles are more awkward to fit into the crowd, and the main damage swing involves you being in their faces; I like the Khoro charge for vortexes becasue it lets me stand beack and hit, but this is also because I tend to do this to mobs that hit me hard, such as Mech Knights, Lumbers etc, on the basis that my shield might as well be my forehead for all the good it does against those guys.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 18:27

#48

Orangeo

Aww, figured this was a tank

Aww, figured this was a tank loadout fourm.
Ironmight/Volcanic plate mail mix with the volcanic sheild, or full ancient if you don't care about spike traps or blast boxes.
Iron Slug.
Triglav (stun already on iron slug).
Irontech bomb.
Heart pendant.
GOTIME.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 18:47

#49

Darkbrady

Attacking with either sword

Attacking with either sword or gun would feel like walkin' through sludge; the swiftstrike would be utterly essential, but then that'd break the tank feel, since you'd attack slowly and not be able to block.

Also..irontech? Why?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 23:54

#50

Mikalator

such a good thread!

Reading the discussion here has been really enlightening & informative. Stuff like this makes a forum worth reading. Thanks for the great post, and replies.

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Sudaruska: The Highlander Loadout