I recommend that we put the Howlitzers in the Fiend family instead of the Undead family. I have two reasons:
Are we agreed, or am I all wet?
2.Beast or fiend.
1.We have sentient jellies. Deep Space travel, energy in the air, furry humani=oid creatures, a unrealistic world. AND YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT A UNDEAD TURENT!?
I ask why?
Who thought howlizers were undead constructs? They are just undead. If you belive that they are constructs because they are turrets look at polyps.
Living chicken cannons.
Do want.
Question is, what will they fire?
Isn't it obvious? They'll be bent over, and rotate so that their butt is facing the knight. BUCUUUUCK!
@Alchemistic: It would be much simpler to replace the elemental weakness with a piercing weakness.
@Atrumvindex: I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting for the sake of balance.
@Tuhui: But undead what? Undead beasts? Undead fiends? What kind of creature died and became undead? The wiki suggests that the howlitzers were once gun puppies. Hence, they are undead gun puppies.
I don't think it's implausible. Still, I have to agree that they seem more like undead than fiends, but then again, aren't Trojans the same way?
I just read the wiki and it says "Howlitzers are the undead version of Gun Puppies." so read the wiki better. I honestly don't know what kind of living creature it once was but we really don't need to know do we? It can be assumed that it was once a animal but it's not anymore, most likely it is something we don't even know about. Also how could they be undead gun puppies? Gun puppies are machines that turn into scrap when destroyed.
Also if anything i would want to replace the slime turret with a beast turret so there is a complete circle with advantages and disadvantages.
Twice you've misunderstood me and the wiki. I read the wiki like you did; I know that it says Howlitzers are undead versions of Gun Puppies. I said as much in the post you replied to, which was itself intended to correct you: you said, "Who thought howlizers were undead constructs?" I essentially said that the wiki thought so. You also asked, "How could they be undead gun puppies... [if they] are machines that turn into scrap when destroyed?" I dunno, that's what I was questioning. If you want a definite answer, ask OOO.
Put simply, I'd appreciate it if you'd read my posts more carefully.
You've misunderstood the context of the wiki:
If I say "Polyps are the slime versions of Gun puppies", I'm meaning the mechanics of a polyp match the mechanics of a gunpuppy. By no means am I saying that Gun puppies were hit by some gelatin transforming ray which made them all blobby and strawberry flavoured, and now fire spikes instead of bullets.
By a less related but no means less relevant example:
If I say "Quicktime is the Apple version of Windows Media Player", I'm meaning that they both play multimedia files, but the former is primarily used on Macs while the latter is primarily used on Windows. by no means am I saying that when moving Windows Media Player onto a Mac does it magically transform into Quicktime, nor did the Developers of Windows Media Player decide to convert it into Quicktime using some ungodly programming method.
Then again, I'm assuming that the cotext of the wiki is regarding the "mechanics" of the two enemies. Which would be a correct assumption, as the description was written by not a member of OOO, but a regular player. It would be safe to assume that he was talking about the mechanics of said enemy, and not the background, because unless there is proof elsewhere (stated by Three Rings Staff) that the edit was added regarding the background of the enemy, a player would not know anything about the monster or where it came from unless it was mentioned ingame.
Let's see if I can clarify my position on gun puppies and howlitzers:
I know gun puppies are constructs.
I know howlitzers are undead.
I believe howlitzers were once constructs (lore-wise).
I believe that gun puppies, howlitzers, and polyps are all turrets that all work in exactly the same way. None are "versions" of each other.
The wiki does not contradict the above statements.
My suggestion is that howlitzers be re-classified as fiends. The reasons are thus:
Gun puppies deal elemental and are weak to elemental.
Howlitzers deal shadow and are weak to elemental.
Polyps deal pierce and are weak to shadow.
There are no turrets that are weak to pierce.
There are more turrets weak to elemental than are weak to shadow.
*Facts end here
To rectify the lack of a turret weak to piercing, there are three options:
Option 1: add a new fiend or beast turret.
Advantage: does not change current level structures.
Disadvantage: there are still more turrets weak to elemental than there are turrets weak to other damage types.
*Note: adding both a new fiend and beast turret will cause the polyp to be the only turret weak to shadow, which only shifts the problem.
Option 2: add as many turrets as there are monster families.
Advantage: very balanced, adds useful complexity.
Disadvantage: requires far more design work to implement.
Option 3: change the monster family class of howlitzers from "Undead" to "Fiend."
Advantage: No re-design needed, very balanced.
Disadvantage: Might confuse veterans.
Now can you see what I see? I'll let you do the math.
In no way did any lore tell you that howlizers were once turrets. What was written can have that meaning but it is impossible to happen. Constructs are not things that are "alive" and have no skeletal structure. There is no way that you get a howlizer out of a construct. You do know what undead means right? Something that is not living can't die only be destroyed.
The howlizer will never become fiend. Everything about it is undead. As it is now it would not work as a fiend. The only thing that would work in balancing this would have every type of enemy have a turret but i don't see that working for gremlins or beasts.
"I believe howlitzers were once constructs (lore-wise)."
"The wiki does not contradict the above statement"
Nor does it prove the "statement" (which is not a statement at all, it's a belief)
I can believe that hearts dropped in dungeons are the feces of the enemies I kill and the wiki doesn't contradict that but it doesn't offer any evidence to support it either.
"I believe that gun puppies, howlitzers, and polyps are all turrets that all work in exactly the same way. None are "versions" of each other"
Oh but they are. They all fire the same way, so they are "versions" of eachother. A gremlin scorcher is the flame-wielding version of the gremlin thwacker. They all move the same way and share quite simliar behaviour.
Incase you didn't read my comment, or didnt understand my last paragraph, when Conanwong (aka NOT A DEVELOPER) wrote: "Howlitzers are the undead version of Gun Puppies" he was obviously referring to that the AI used for all turrets is shared, and just reskinned. He was not talking about the lore of the enemy, he was talking about the programming of the game.
-1 because Howlitzers are skulls. Period.
Unless you can suggest a new enemy for a fiend turret, reclassifying a Howlitzer as a Fiend is both unnecessary and out of place.
@Hexzyle: I see your point. I need to modify my suggestion a little...
Howlitzers are living skulls, so they're undead. Trojans are living statues, so they're fiends. Sounds like special pleading to me. But be that as it may, why can't lore and realism be sacrificed a little bit for the sake of balance? All I'm asking for is that the elemental weakness of the Howlitzers be changed to a piercing weakness, of which the main side effect is the reclassification of the monster. Vanaduke regularly defies classification, so such a move is not unprecedented.
In short, I'm not trying to make a case for Howlitzers to be fiends instead of undead. I don't really care. I'm trying to make a case for a weakness change; the family classification is a secondary issue for me.
Family classifications are pretty core to the game, saying Howlitzers are undead and then making them weak to piercing anyway seems like a great way to confuse people. Also, Vanaduke is a boss, that's apples and oranges you got there.
To my understanding OOO value their lore pretty highly, they've put it above game balance numerous times before, and your complaint is relatively minor. You've got a very slim chance of success putting up a suggestion that flies in the face of fluff.
I see what you mean with this; the other turrets are resistant to it, so why not make the three more seperate? Gun Puppies deal and are susceptable to element, Polyps deal pierce and are weak to shadow, while Howlitzers deal shadow and are weak to element. None of the turrets are weak to pierce. However, keep in mind what deals pierce: rapiers (Flourish and Snarble Barb lines), Barrage, Crystal (bomb) lines, Blitz/Plague Needle and Callahan. Toothpicks do not need to be explained here. Barrage is essentially Nitronome with a few tweaks. Crystal lines are designed to destroy targets with limited mobility; plant, pop, high damage, repeat forever. Blitz is a rapid fire, no-strafe gun which also does immense damage when fired in close proximity to the target; see Trojans. Callahan can stun-nail.
Keep in mind the three existing turrets are all either weak or neutral to element damage, which most guns are purely.
The only way this is gonna ever be truly balanced is that if there were turrets for all types, and as i have said before i can not see it working for gremlins or beasts. You say it would be balanced then but there is one thing you forget, both polyps and puppys are resistant to piercing. It may be a small thing but exactally on topic with what you say you wanna "fix".
The complete fix for this problem would be just to add more monsters. Don't worry, the monsters are coming :)
Just probably not very soon.
@Hexzyle
Don't worry, the monsters are coming:)
AAAAAAAAAAH THE MONSTERS ARE COMING EVERYONE RUN RUN FOR YOUR LIVES HIDE YOUR WIFE HIDE YOUR KIDS HIDE YOUR CHEETOS
: |
Tojans are undead knights. They should be classified as spiral knights.
zombies are undead almirians. They should be classified as almirians (or spiral knights if my theory that SKs used to be almirians in their way history).
retrodes are zombie mecha knights. they should be classified as mecha knights.
scuttlebots are robot chromalisks. they should be classified as chromalisks.
shufflebots are robotic jellies. they should be classified as jelly cubes.
kats are undead kats. They should be classified as kats.
Wait, what?
Problem is, existing Piercing weapons are designed to thoroughly decimate enemies weak to Piercing, simply because they usually can be one of the toughest enemies to kill (particularly in terms of agility).
I can foresee Blitzes being abused to one-shot turrets with ease with your proposed change. I.e., no, unless you want Howlitzers to fly around while shooting you (good luck persuading the community on that).
"Unless you want Howlitzers to fly around while shooting you."
^That's actually a good idea! When the main howlitzer turret is destroyed, the head can fly around and shoot at you while trying to ram you. Of course, the lifespan of the head would be unchanged.
Tell me, folks - can I persuade the community on that? :D
Probably not. I mean, it's already a kamikaze skull. If it shot bullets at you as well as collide with you, all shields bar shadow would pretty much break instantly.
The last ditch exploding rocket head fits better with an Undead classification.
It would be better to create brand new turrets for the neglected monster families than to confuse veteran players by changing the classification of Howlitzers. It would be a lot of work to adjust places like Candlestick Keep where Fiends are not supposed to appear.
Just be patient, OOO will get around to filling in the gaps for turrets. They can get around to them sooner if we suggest good ideas for turrets.