Spiral Knights - Lets make sleep not OP!

Lets make sleep not OP!

21 respuestas [Último envío]

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 09:38

Serell

Come on, who doesn't want to see sleep again? I have heard there used to be monsters that inflicted sleep, but they were taken out because sleep status was OP. I would really like to see more sleep monsters, have sleep themed levels, and have weapons that inflict sleep!

So... in order to do that.... we have to help OOO figure out a way to make sleep not OP o.O

My idea for balancing sleep :

It instantly heals all inflicted with sleep but makes them completely immobilized for just long enough where enemies will be able to do some major damage. But if you get inflicted with sleep and your team mates can get all the monsters away, you're completely fine and fully replenished! This would call for some great team work and would encourage the team to stick together. So, one of 2 things would happen if you get inflicted with sleep :
1. You die. Sadness :(
2. You're fully replenished! Yay :D

I only see 2 problems in this :

1. sleep levels would be almost impossible to solo like T3 fiends. But yay for teamwork :D
2. Sleep weapons would be terrible against bosses.

Now, i also believe this would not be OP in Lockdown.
It would be real difficult to use a sleep status bomb, and you definitely could not use it as your main weapon!
But i think if used correctly, you can put all those annoying toothpickers to sleep and let your team mates take 'em out!

Now, fellow forumites, that is my idea for making sleep not OP, but what is YOUR idea? o.O

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 09:56

Hexzyle

@Serell

My idea is that you haven't really thought of a solution at all, you've just recapped why sleep was removed from the game. If you want it to be readded, at least think of some decent workarounds for the issues with sleep, and "teamwork" isnt a solution as lots of people go solo, and teamwork doesn't exist in a lot of parties.

You've forgotten about the people who've spent over 10kCE on sleep UVd equipment and zee cores.

Sleep is earning OOO money and keeping collectors happy.

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 10:06

Serell

@Hexsyle

Oh, i am sorry. I have totally forgoten about the people who have paid lots of money for sleep UV'd equipment and zee cores.
Maybe this wasn't such a good idea, but i think i'll wait to see a few more comments about this before i graveyard it.
Thank you for your help, hexzyle.

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 10:03

Bisento

Ok I'll give it a try. How

Ok I'll give it a try.

How about instead of a full heal, enemies heal at a similar rate to having a silverwing nearby. And if a player gets hit they heal at a similar rate to standing on a heart pad in an arena level. I don't know about anyone else but the sound of "full heal" just puts me off. It would bring people to use poison more often to counter the healing, which could be clever or OP depending on how you look at it.

And it would make people think about whether letting people sit there and heal or interrupting them for just a couple seconds is tactically better. Imagine party members banding together to protect one member to let him heal more in the middle of battle.

Of course this is me assuming getting hit interrupts the sleep like with freeze status.

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 11:30

Serell

Wait! Idea!

Ok... hexzyle has made a good point.
If we add sleep, people will rage that they can't get sleep UV's to help them.
But, if we add sleep UV's back in, players that paid 10k CE for the once-rare items with sleep UV's will rage.
Hexzlye has also stated that if sleep levels were to difficult to the point of almost not being able to solo, then lots of people will be upset because most like to solo.
Now, i am all about trying to make everyone happy, so i am going to add some idea's trying to get hexzlyes approval :P

What if there are no sleep themed levels in the clockworks, but have a 20% chance after defeating a danger room, a gate appears that you can take down to a sleep themed level of the clockworks. This is totally optional, really hard, but gives tons of loot! The cost of going down is the same as a normal elevator, 10 energy, and after the level is complete you go back into the normal clockworks.

Example : You find a danger room on D15. You beat it. A elevator appears with a sign explaining the dangers below. You invite your friends to come with you. You all go down into the sleep themed level, taking D16's place. You beat it, receiving lots of CR (I suggest the level should give around 1500 CR, but this is subject to change). You then take an elevator down back into the regular clockworks starting at D17.

Since the sleep levels are totally optional, no one should be complaining about them being to hard.
And with them being completely optional, i believe that might be reason enough to not add sleep UV's back in.
It would also raise the price of sleep UV's, giving OOO more moneyz :3

@Bisento : Getting hit while asleep does not awake you.
You have also made good points, and i shall comment on them later, for my fingers have gotten tired :3

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 14:24

Hexzyle

@Serell

Curious. But I hope that sleep UVs would not give players an unfair advantage in said levels, because as a game mechanic, limited edition equipment is not alllowed.

Perhaps a status similar to sleep but going by a different name could be added.

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 14:34

Lilipup

no more sleep

wasn`t there a update where u can't get sleep status UV's any more?

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 14:59

Hexzyle

@Lilipup

That's one of my points.

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 17:13

Luguiru

I read "Lilipup" as "Lalapop"

I believe sleep was removed for the same reason healing weapons do not exist for player use.

The end, now go to bed.

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 18:28

Magnicth

OR they could make it so that

OR they could make it so that sleep does not heal you or the monsters?and instead makes you completely immobile for 10-20 seconds?just a thought.sleep doesnt necessarily have to heal.and besides,i want to explore and scavenge through the Shrine of Slumber.

-Magnicth the Dragon Mage

Jue, 04/19/2012 - 21:36

#10

Hexzyle

Perhaps a new status

Perhaps a new status "weariness" could be added instead, which gives a delay on all actions, with a movement speed decrease.

So if you clicked to raise your shield, you might have like a 1 second delay before your shield is brought up. The same goes for attacks.

Anyone who has combined both the "walk" and "sleep" animations in Spiral-Spy should know how this should look. :) (it's kind of a dragging feet while walking and swaying too)

Now that I think about it, this just sounds like a more annoying version of stun. So any better ideas?

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 02:35

#11

Baodur

Omgoshyeah

@ Hexzyle: Yeah kind of sounds like stun, but stun is so bugged right not it's pretty useless. Slooms and the Sloomlargo things were epic. Infact some armors have sleep resistance already (Jelly, as an example) so sleep UV may be "limited edition equipment" but some armors can have the same buffs.

@ Serell: I believe you do wake up after getting hit 2 or more times, using sleep vials on slags either lasts a very short amount of time or AP wakes them up fast. Anyway, I do like the idea of sleep coming back, but it definitely has some fixing up needed. Healing is to OP... Not healing makes the 10 second delay OP and makes stun obsolete (Not that stun isn't already obsolete do to bugs). I'm sure you'll think of something and GL coming up with a fix.

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 08:02

#12

Hexzyle

It honestly doesn't matter if

It honestly doesn't matter if you can achieve the same UVs with a different armour, if there is a practical application of a limited edition item, that's OP and grounds for justified raging and consequently, rage quitting.

Such as fighting slooms with jelly armour does not give the same bonuses as fighting a sloom with wolver + max sleep. (a common sleep UVd item)
One gives a lot more sleep resist and a sword bonus, while the other does not.

No armour or ability that affects the game has been limited edition, and there won't ever be. It just would ruin the game if all the old players gained an instant advantage (no matter how small). Well, it wouldn't ruin the game, but there would be a lot of unhappy players convinced that it would.

So, convert plate and jellies "sleep" defenses to "weariness" defenses while adding new UVs to the UV possibilities. Make sleep UVs not resist weariness status at all.

That way, sleep would not be OP.
Sleep UV armour owning players would not rage.
and People without Sleep UV armours would not rage.

Everyone is happy.

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 15:59

#13

Serell

Ok... I have been trying tot

Ok... I have been trying tot hink of a way to make sleep OP... my conclusion : Can't. I keep trying to think of something, but i just can't. Now hex is right about some things. Sleep will become a new status, "weariness". And because it's OP, all weariness levels are totally optional.

After defeating a danger room, there is a 20% chance an elevator appears. There is a sign explaining the dangers of whats below, and the new status "weariness"(suggested by hex). You ignore it because your awesome, but you invite your friends to help you. You tell them you are being nice, giving them a chance to earn lots of money, but the real reason why you invited them is because you are scared &*^$less of this new place. You all descend down, taking the next depths place. (Ex. You were on D15, you do weariness stratum and then you return to the normal clockworks starting at D17). The place is filled with monsters that inflict weariness. It was tough, for they inflicted weariness often and you were constantly either protecting one of your friends inflicted with weariness or being protected while under the influence of weariness by your friends. You manage to get to the end, rewarding you with many, many treasure boxes. You all shout "Horray!", for you have done it! You then find an elevator and go back to the normal clockworks. (I suggest the level should give around 2000 crowns, but this is subject to change).

....thats all i got so far on that ._.
Will be expanding, and possibly add a boss and tokens.

Now because i don't think sleep can be balanced, i don't think there should be any weapons that can inflict "weariness".
But maybe....maybe....there's still hope..... just have to keep thnking....

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 16:38

#14

Softhead

-_-

How about a shock/stun like status.

You move realy slow, and would pause(no dmg) for 3 secs, then resume in slow walk. Rinse and repeat. A friend can cancel the pause doze by wacking them.

Sleep sometimes can not heal you.

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 20:00

#15

Hexzyle

Or perhaps weariness can work

Or perhaps weariness can work exactly like sleep, but only in those levels, elsewhere it wouldn't exist.
I don't know. It seems like quite a fiddly mechanic. I'm beginning to understand another reason for its removal lol XD

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 20:19

#16

Uuni

Just make it work like

Just make it work like freeze, immobilization where you cant turn but it can be broken by a melee attack from a teammate or enemy. Unlike freeze though, you heal and in return you cant shield

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 20:40

#17

Doctorspacebar

Here are my thoughts: -Sleep

Here are my thoughts:

-Sleep inflicted on players gives a small defense decrease. If a player awakens naturally, they gain back half the amount of health taken by the average Sloom attack in that stratum; if they are shocked awake by an attack, it heals one-quarter the amount of health taken by the average Sloom attack in that stratum. Obviously, being hit breaks Sleep, and Poison negates the healing from Sleep. Fire and Shock will also break Sleep (nobody can stay asleep while they're burning alive), but Freeze and Poison will not, unless they come with a damaging attack.

-Sleep inflicted on monsters will have a similar effect, but the amount healed will depend on the strength of the Sleep (makes sense, sleeping for longer will heal more).

-In Lockdown, the defense decrease is removed. Also, in Lockdown, Flourishes and Rocket Hammer should be split damage... but that's a topic for another time.

-Weapons inflicting sleep may be advised.
--Sealed Sword charge
--2* Dream Sword: "A sword that is grounded both in reality and in dreams. Its attacks pull foes into a slumber." An incorporeal, blue 3-hit Normal damage sword with Sleep occuring on the third hit. The Charge Attack creates poofy blue clouds in front of knights that will deal damage, knock enemies into the next cloud, and cause Sleep very often.
--3* Sweet Dreamer: "This weapon wraps its unfortunate victims in the sweetest dreams. Gremlins commonly use it in euthanasia." The Sweet Dreamer deals split Elemental/Normal damage, and attacks like the Dream Sword, but with slightly pink clouds. It looks like the Dream Sword, but is pink.
--3* Bad Dreamer: "Dropping this sword into a storage pit of pure Dark Matter altered its effects severely. Knights who wield it suffer from severe insomnia." Split Shadow/Normal damage, and attacks like the Dream Sword. Its Charge Attack, however, is changed to an orbiting, spinning black crescent moon that flies around the player in a clockwise revolution, carrying enemies with it and causing light damage with a Sleep explosion at the end. It looks like the Dream Sword, but is dark purple.
--4* Deep Sleeper: "More lethargic knights are advised to avoid carrying this blade, which leaves horribly mangled bodies and happy dreams in its wake." Split Elemental/Normal damage, and attacks like the Dream Sword, but with green clouds. It looks like the Dream Sword, but is green.
--4* Bogey Blade: "King Krogmo can't bear to watch his own Coliseum games when these malevolent mincers show up in the hands of particularly sadistic knights." Split Shadow/Normal damage, and attacks like the Bad Dreamer. It's a dark gray Dream Sword.
--5* True Dream Blade: "A sword that is itself a mere daydream. However, even robots attest to its wicked bite, felt only by those unlucky souls who stay awake in their final moments of life." Split Elemental/Normal damage, attacks like Dream Sword, but white, with white clouds that appear in double the range!
--5* Nightmare: "Knights carrying this sword have reported seeing their comrades tortured before their eyes - only to realize it was all just a bad dream. This weapon guarantees its wielder will stay up all night." Split Shadow/Normal, attacks like Bad Dreamer, jet-black. Its charge attack generates an extra moon that goes around in a counter-clockwise direction, and the moons reach a little farther.
--3* Sleepyslime Tranquilizer: "Coated with Sloom goo, a single bullet is all that's needed to get even the most ornery Wolvers snoozing." This heavy, black gun is oozing a strange blue ooze that is totally not from a Sloom. Fires a single piercing shot per clip- but it's powerful, and causes Sleep to unfortunate targets! The Charge Attack will fire a shot that makes a small blue Sleep cloud.
--4* Snoozinslime Tranquilizer: "Many a Pit Boss has been found sleeping on the job thanks to this single-shot sleeper." See the above weapon.
--5* Slumberslime Tranquilizer: "When you have this slumbering sidearm coated with Sloombargo saliva, even a sinister, snarling Snarbolax is nothing to lose sleep over." Another upgraded Tranquilizer.
--2* Lullabomb: A sleep haze bomb. It's blue.
--3* Lullabomb Mk II: A sleep haze bomb with more range.
--4* Lullaburst: A sleep haze bomb with even more range.
--5* Cloud Nine: A big big sleep haze bomb, what did you think?

Vie, 04/20/2012 - 22:19

#18

Hexzyle

What I'm thinking is that

What I'm thinking is that people want to see these monsters (slooms and sloombargos) again.

Only add in slooms and sleep status (alternative) for knights in the aformentioned levels.

Don't add sleep status (alternative) vials, we already have sleep vials. Also there's no need to change sleep status against monsters, its fine.

Don't add sleep weapons, this adds in all sorts of problems, and begins to make sleep mainstream. (and irritating in lockdown) What we're trying to do here is bring back sleep for the sleep fanatics only in one level, a rare one. Not throw new sleep stuff all across cradle.

Do not give slooms exclusive drops. Zee cores should be removed from the sloom drop table. Or at least, add a different material with the same useless purpose, perhaps a different star rating version of a zee core.

I don't know how plausable these will be, but if we want sleep re-introduced it has to overcome all the problems that made it removed, plus not bring up any problems from issues that have come up after its removal.

Sáb, 04/21/2012 - 01:48

#19

Asukalan

I just tried. Its still OP.

Sáb, 04/21/2012 - 02:18

#20

Hexzyle

"I just tried. Its still

"I just tried. Its still OP.

In other words: "I don't like it, im too lazy to think up anything to help, im just going to disagree because i can't be effing bothered reading the rest of the thread regarding its rebalancing."

Sáb, 04/21/2012 - 09:07

#21

Hyperleon

drowzness

what about drowzness it works like sleep but you,re charecter still moves but slower and your attack dont do that much damage as normal and last for 5 to 10 seconds

Buscar

Lets make sleep not OP!