Spiral Knights - Total Weaponry Rebalance: Full Statistics Provided

Total Weaponry Rebalance: Full Statistics Provided

20 Réponses [Dernière contribution]

ven, 07/06/2012 - 11:50

Lyzak

BE WARNED! THIS IS A REALLY, REALLY, REEEAAAALLLLLLLY huge post! Read it with intent or don't read it, I won't take any of that TL;DR crap.

I put a lot of time and effort into this. I like Spiral Knights, and having it be as good of a game as possibles is important to me. A lot of people just say that SK has dissolved into a money-grubbing sink for Sega and have just given up entirely.

I don't like to to give up.

As an aspiring game developer, it frustrates me often just how much this game lacks item balance.
In short, you should never be able to look at two items in a game and say, "This one is better in general because ___________"
And, as it stands, I can indeed do just that.

I was ready to go on a total rampage and try to offer statistical rebalances of every single item in the game, including weaponry, armor and shields. However, I lacked adequate information on exactly how armor works (Yes, I think armor is broken too). In addition, I was frustrated by the numerical algorithms Spiral Knights uses to come up with its rather arbitrary-looking damage numbers.

So, the best I can do is provide end-game rebalances. The amount of detail I've put into this is pretty huge, but extrapolation will be necessary to make these numbers work in all three tiers.

Summary:
The most broken items in the game are swords. I was so infuriated that the developers decided to fix an arbitrary bomb that no one has any issue with on the count that it "acts like a gun" and "ruins the bomb experience," while there are guns that act like bombs, swords that act like guns, and everything in between. I have no problem with making the shard-line bombs more bomb-like (and of course, adding new bombs <3), but there are so many other items in more desperate need for a look at. Swords are one of them.

I have to guess that when Spiral Knights was in drafting, the Leviathan Blade was suppose to be the general-purpose sword. Well, it's not. The Divine Avenger or [insert brandish-line sword here] is. The Sudaruska line is totally obsolete because of its speed and mediocre damage. It's practically used like a bomb with its charge attack, and nothing else. There is no draw to use the "side-grades" to the Flourish line. Shadow damage weapons are called "special" because they do shadow damage, and that is used as an excuse not to give them any kind of special abilities (Acheron v. Elemental Brandish, Graviton Vortex v. Electron Vortex). Brandish charges work like a cross between a bomb and a gun. At the same time. Finally, normal damage sucks! Players have no incentive to carry around a normal-damage weapon because the draw of a special-damage weapon which is equally or more useful two thirds of the time is so much more appealing. Special damage types is not a side-grade with advantages and disadvantages, because people simply choose to carry around additional weaponry. It's a flat-out upgrade.

In other news, the Big Angry Bomb and Irontech Destroyer both still suck in comparison to their "little brother," the Nitronome; the Iron Slug still hasn't gotten a fix, and both it and the Callahan are only... passable, as ranged weapons, in the first place. The Polaris is the number 1 most useful item in the game, acting like an unholy devil-child of a knockback-inflicing status bomb and a powerful ranged weapon at the same time. And I don't even know what the Neutralizer and Biohazard are suppose to be good for...

So, here is a list of every end-game weapon currently in circulation, with their suggested rebalance:
**All damage values are end-of-stratum-6**

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The Leviathan Blade:
Three-hit weapon, speed A
Damage Type: Normal
Hit 1 and 2: 203
Hit 3: 258
Charge: 368
Effects: none
"All in all a great place to start. Since swords are woefully overused and just a mess in general, I'm using the Leviathan Blade as it should have been used: a starting point."

The Cold Iron Vanquisher:
Three-hit weapon, speed A
Damage Type: Normal
Hit 1 and 2: 186
Hit 3: 238
Charge: 330
Effects: Damage v. Undead VERY HIGH, chance to inflict Curse on Undead on hits 3 or Charge (Yes, I'm aware undead are normally immune to curse)
"This weapon is totally outclassed by every single other elemental weapon in the game for uses against undead. The fact that it deals normal to everything else doesn't matter at all, because normal damage is underpowered in the first place. It needs to be more useful, so I added an extra stage of undead damage, made the base drop in damage only about 10%, and added curse against undead; something no other item in the game can do."

The Fang of Vog:
Three-hit weapon, speed A (NOT SLOWER!)
Damage type: ELEMENTAL ONLY (For crying out loud, the sword is MADE OF LAVA AND FIRE!)
Hit 1 and 2: 162
Hit 3: 206
Charge: ~500
Effects: Chance of Strong Fire on third hit, or charge. Chance to receive fire.
"In general, this sword needs to be as fast as its neighbor weapons, the Brandish Line and the Calibur Line. I've changed its damage type because there are way too many elemental/normal weapons. If there's one weapon that deserves to be purely elemental for "realism" purposes, it's this one. In addition, I've changed its damage to be 20% lower than that of the Leviathan Blade. This is a convention I use for all weaponry that has a special damage type to make normal damage more viable."

The Brandish-Line:
Three-hit weapon, speed A
Damage type: Normal/Elemental (or Normal/Shadow, for the Acheron)
Hit 1 and 2: 172
Hit 3: 220
Charge: Initial sweep deals ~240 damage. The charge attack is changed to result in a series of explosions directly in front of the user. For reference, think of the animation for the Nitronome explosion, which looks like the bomb is detonating several times (Obviously the Brandish's charge attack would be smaller than this). Charge attack still results in a high chance of status infliction and some decent damage, but the idea is that it looks much less like a long-ranged gun/bomb/sword thing. Now it's... JUST a... bomb/sword thing...
Effects: Elemental Brandish-Line swords still result in their respective status condition. The Acheron needs a status infliction of some sort. I suggested something called "Blindness" which made enemies sometimes deal "MISS" damage for some time, but as pointed out somewhat... crudely, it's a little overpowered. The Acheron still needs a status infliction though. Maybe poison. /shurg
"Brandish-Line swords deal only 15% less damage than the Leviathan Blade to account for their half-normal status, and the decreased bonus against certain monsters. The change in charge attack is the biggest change; but it could still cause the sword to deal a significant amount of damage, while not making it act so much like a ranged explosive weapon."

The Striker Blades:
Five-Hit Weapon, speed B
Damage type: Normal (Wild Hunting Blade becomes half-normal, half-piecing)
Hit 1: No change (Wild Hunting Blade deals 10% less damage)
Hit 1.5: No change
Hit 5: No change
Charge: No change
Effects: Wild Hunting Blade becomes Damage v Beast VERY HIGH
"All in all, these swords are more or less fine as is. They're still not very used, but hopefully the "nerf" to special damage types will make normal damage more attractive again. And the Wild Hunting Blade... still really isn't the optimal sword for beast hunting. Everyone just uses a Flourish or Dark Briar Barrage."

The Final Flourish and Barbarous Thorn Blade:
Three-hit weapon, speed C ("Fast Three-strike Sword" speed)
Damage type: Piercing
Hit 1 and 2: 162
Hit 3: 206
Charge: Adjust Accordingly
Effects: none
"Faster and more powerful than the Leviathan Blade, using a Flourish Line weapon for all cases except jellies and constructs is a no-brainer. For jellies and constructs, bring a DA. Everyone does. So, I nerfed the damage on this to be 20% less than the Leviathan Blade to accommodate for its special damage type. In general, the FF and BTB are identical weapons with different charges. They can remain that way."

The Fearless Rigadoon and Furious Flamberge:
Three-hit weapon, speed C
Damage type: Piercing
Hit 1 and 2: 152
Hit 3: 193
Charge: Adjust Accordingly. Charge Times should be reduced.
Effects: Chance to inflict Strong Stun or Medium Fire, respectively.
"I don't know if these weapons will ever be worth their damage penalty..."

The Sudaruska:
Two-Hit Weapon, Speed D (As fast as the Divine Avenger/Gran Faust, NOT SLOWER!)
Damage type: Normal
Hit 1: no change
Hit 2: no change
Charge: no change
Effects: Chance of Strong Stun on hit 2 or Charge.
"This sword was pitifully USELESS. This sword should be the Leviathan Blade of the heavy-sword sector -- the standard, or jumping off point. It needs to deal DAMAGE! Lots of it! It's a really slow sword that only hits twice, and the knockback makes that second hit tricky at times, too.

However, the damage numbers I gave it originally were a bit too high, so I've ommitted them and am treating these two swords just like I said I should: the jumping off point. To compensate for their back-to-normal damage, the Divine Avenger and Gran Faust have already been nerfed for your viewing pleasure."

The Triglav:
Two-Hit Weapon, Speed D
Damage type: Normal
Hit 1: ~5% less than the Sudaruska
Hit 2: ~5% less than the Sudaruska
Charge: The basic charge attack is the same, except that monsters get the full impact of the knockback before getting frozen... if such a thing can be programmed into the engine.
Effects: Chance of Strong Freeze on hit 2 or Charge.
"For this to be an adequate side-grade, it needs to maintain the Sudaruska's ability to knockback enemies. For a heavy sword user, freezing an enemy right in front of you while you're trying to hit them away is counterproductive and self-destructive.

The Divine Avenger and Gran Faust:
Two-Hit Weapon, Speed D
Damage type: Normal/Elemental (or Normal/Shadow)
Hit 1: 200
Hit 2: 288
Charge: Adjust Accordingly
Effects: Gran Faust retains its curse abilities. No change
"Really, these weapons need to be weaker than the Sudaruska and Triglav. They are meant to be powerful elemental and shadow weapons, not "the only viable heavy swords in the game." Poor Sudaruska and Triglav -- they stand no chance."

The Warmaster Rocket Hammer:
Two-Hit Weapon with intermediate "dash," Speed D
Damage type: Elemental
Hit 1: 188
Dash: 125 up to three times
Hit 2: 250
Charge: Adjust Accordingly
Effects: none
"This weapon has not been changed other than its damage, which I reduced to be slightly less than that of the Divine Avenger. The draw of this weapon is that, if used correctly, it can deal MORE than the Divine Avenger in a standard combo. Otherwise, it's kind of useless.

And, for those who are feeling a little ticked off, I did NOT say this was the ONLY draw for the weapon."

I have no comments on the Winmillion, anymore. It is not a 5* weapon and therefore I cannot really consider it "end-game," so at least for this post, it's pretty irrelevant.

In other news:
Swordsmen need a pure shadow-damage sword!

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That concludes the Sword Section. From here, there aren't a whole lot of balances. Most of the guns are the same, so I'll just list the ones that need a bit of touching up. I used the Valiance as the "jumping off" point, much as I used the Leviathan Blade for the swords.

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The Volcanic Pepperbox:
Automatic Gun
Damage Type: ELEMENTAL
Damage per Bullet: 50 (between the Blitz Needle and Plague Needle, since poison results in dealing more damage, where fire only indirectly results in that. Also, can constructs even be poisoned? ...)
Charge Attack: No change
Effects: Chance of STRONG FIRE
Other notes: I was informed this weapon has knockback, which none of the other auto-gun line weapons have. Get rid of this.
"No one uses this weapon. I don't know why, I guess it's just not as useful as a gun that can poison and cause all your party members to deal exponentially higher damage... or a piecing gun that can kill trojans immediately. So, lets give it a reason to be useful by changing its damage type."

Unpublished Gun:
Automatic Gun
Damage Type: Normal
Damage per Bullet: 65-68 (It's a normal-type gun. YES this is more than the Needle Blitz)
Charge: Same as the rest of the autogun line.
Effects: none
"To have a gun that is totally different from all other guns, you need to have a "jumping off" point. The catalyzers get a Normal gun. The Magnums get a normal gun. Even the stupid Pulsar line gets a normal gun... but the automatic weapons don't?"

The Neutralizer and Biohazard:
Floating Charge Gun (slow bullets)
Damage Type: Normal or Shadow
Damage per Bullet: No data found. No change.
Damage per Explosion: No data found. Increase this!
Effects: None (Biohazard has a chance to inflict SEVERE poison)
Other notes: Increase the duration that charges float around. This weapon is so underused it's not even funny. I don't even know if this weapon is salvageable, but if there's one way to do it without making a new weapon entirely, it's to give the player more time to stack charges up on their enemies.

The Supernova and Polaris:
Expanding Charge Gun (slow bullets)
Damage Type: Normal (Polaris is Elemental)
Damage per Bullet: no change on Supernova (72 for the Trollari -- I mean, Polaris)
Damage per Expanded Bullet: no change on Supernova (88 Polaris)
Charge: Increase knockback or increased chance to shock.
Effects: none (Polaris has a chance to cause Shock)
Other notes: Decrease the ammunition of this weapon to 2. Polaris does not inflict knockback; only the Supernova does. This is a PvP balance, mostly.
"What's both a gun, a blast bomb and a voltaic tempest, all rolled up into one? The Trollaris is, of course! And it makes Lockdown a nightmare. Cut spam, add skill, have more fun. This gun is nonsense."

The IRON SLUG and Callahan:
Heavy Gun
Damage Type: Normal (Callahan is Piercing)
Damage per Bullet: 150!!! (Callahan is only 132)
Charge: 450!!! (Callahan is... oh I don't know, how about 398?)
Effects: Callahan has a chance to cause Stun
"These weapons are sad. Yes, it's nice to have a gun that half the monsters in the game don't just dodge willy-nilly. But they are HEAVY GUNS! SLOW, HEAVY GUNS! They need more power! Guns are already super-weak compared to most other weapons. And please, Iron Slug is crying. It's so useless. A dinky autogun-line can dish out more damage than it can. Give it the OOMPH it deserves!"

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That's all the guns! The bombs are, more or less, actually quite good! In fact, the bombs have my favorite example of GOOD GAME BALANCING in their arsenal. The Dark Briar Barrage is a wonderful bomb -- and it's balanced, too. It's a hair weaker than the Nitronome to account for its special damage type, and while it's a bit faster than it as well, it lacks the knockback that the Nitronome is known for. The two cannot be called the same bomb with different damage types.

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The Nitronome:
Blast Bomb
Damage Type: Normal
Charge Time: Fast
Fuse Time: Fast
Walk Speed: Normal
Knockback: Good
Blast Radius: Huge
Damage: 230
Effects: None
"I didn't change this bomb. It's a great bomb! It's just a reference I can use for "fixing" the REST of the blast bombs:"

The Irontech Destroyer:
Blast Bomb
Damage Type: Normal
Charge Time: no change
Fuse Time: .5 seconds or less, like the current Shard Bombs
Walk Speed: no change
Knockback: no chance
Blast Radius: no change
Damage: 180-ish
Effects: Chance to inflict... something. Maybe stun? (That status needs to be fixed still, doesn't it...)
"In general, the Blast Bomb line is really one sided. You have a fast bomb with fast walking speed and a fast fuse and a large blast radius. Go down the line to Irontech Destroyer and Big Angry Bomb and you get slower and slower and smaller and smaller and in general, just worse of a choice for a bomber that needs responsiveness and maneuverability. If you want to slow down a bomb, you give it more usefulness as a result."

The BIG ANGRY BOMB:
Blast Bomb
Damage Type: Normal
Charge Time: no change
Fuse Time: no change
Walk Speed: no change
Knockback: no change
Blast Radius: no change
Damage: 400!!!
Effects: None
"You want a slow bomb with an attitude? HERE is a slow bomb with an attitude. Give it some punch. 260 damage is NOT a punch. It's a slap. Maybe a hard slap, but that's not enough for a bomber who needs his feet in tact. This is the Heavy Bomber weapon. Again, if you slow down a bomb, you need to make it useful enough to be worth it. And usefulness can come in the form of a punch. A really, really big punch."

In other news:
Give the Graviton Vortex a status.

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That concludes my weaponry analysis and rebalance! Tell me what you think! I'm open to suggestions. But ultimately, this is targeted at the developers. The weaponry in this game is severely flawed, and it's time for a big fix-up. This rebalance is designed explicitly to give EVERY weapon an equal degree of usefulness where a chance for usefulness still exists (Sorry, Catalyzer line...). Balance is important.

Enjoy the wall.
-Lyzák

ven, 07/06/2012 - 13:58

Addisond

I read half of that

I got shaky when you said that the only draw of the hammer was that it was able to do more damage than a DA and when you said that winmillion should be removed because it "didn't act like a sword", I left. I don't see why a sword has to act like a sword.

ven, 07/06/2012 - 13:59

Canine-Vladmir

TL;DR

Good Job with...um..this.
Reallllyyyy informative.
Sir this is not a bump for your cause. -_- (stern look)

ven, 07/06/2012 - 14:09

Artistbma

Well.

That was a lot of text. But I read it all! ^_^ So Intriguing. I liked most of these changes. Many weapons need to be fixed so every end game player not only uses DA, GF, Polaris, FF/BTB.

However, some ideas you had weren't the best. I forget which ones I made a mental note about, but look over what you said a bit. Think about some of those.

ven, 07/06/2012 - 14:19

Luguiru

Honk

Balancing weapons comes down to what they are designed for. Of the two Calibur lines Vanquisher is better against undead but Leviathan is better generally; they work very similarly and have the same basic mechanic but Vanquisher tends to fall short. I completely agree with swords being biased in favor of in this game while bombers tend to get smacked. The Seerus bombs definitely needed to be nerfed, though they could use a little more damage, but taking the shard bomb mechanic away was a sucker punch to the crotch. For Brandish lines the explosions on the charge attack used to have a chance of having so many rather than always having the same explosion count as the star rank, which made it more of a gamble whether it was useful or not. Sealed lines are powerful, no doubt, but so are most swords somewhat. In combat swords are easier to use and have instantly gratifying damage rates. People want to kill immediately, not use that thing between their ears. This game has a lot of this kind of combat. Some games have created a combat environment where strategy determines victory, such as one of my personal favorites Dofus; that particular game has a turn based combat system where the battle is set on the map you started the battle on and has various obstacles in the area and all classes have skills which can be used for various strategies. For example, the masochist class Sacrier gains bonuses for taking damage when they activate a certain skill while the assassin class Sram can set invisible traps to damage and/or poison the target and can run around while invisible. The Sram can set up traps to lure enemies which have short range attacks then turn invisible when they get too close. The Sacrier has a skill which allows them to pull an enemy to them in case they try to run away, meaning anything along the path the pulled target happens to move over affect it. However, if the map does not allow the Sram to be pulled to the Sacrier enough then the Sram can still run away- These are just two of the fourteen classes which are currently available, not including the new class which is supposed to come out in a month or something. Bottom line, the combat relies heavily on intellect and planning; Spiral Knights combat is more based on coordination and offensive ability. Sometimes you want projectiles, sometimes you want area of effect, sometimes you want long range- it commonly comes down to picking the poison, metaphorically. I do not expect Spiral Knights to kiss up to Dofus, but some of the equipment we have simply makes combat too easy to clear a room by spamming the same thing over and over and over and o-

Normal weapons are supposed to be useful for versatility, but specialist weapons tend to one-up them since the update where loadout stations are commonly available; before then you had to know what you were going to face and plan ahead. After the update all you need is a few specialized weapons before going out the door. About Acheron and Graviton compared to their element counterparts, I also agree; Acheron should have more damage since it has no status or the element lines have their damage lowered. Graviton is often dwarfed by Electron because of the damage type, though the shock Electron also has is where heads start to bash; why does Electron have the same damage as Graviton but also has shock? Because it comes from Krogmo tokens. Electron used to have less base damage than Graviton to counterbalance its shocking ability, though currently it seems they tried to remove shock from Electron. If the purpose of removing shock from the effects for Electron was to remove it they did it wrong. Graviton itself is still very useful, my personal first and favorite 5* bomb, but the damage type is less versatile for the higher ranked areas where shadow resistant enemies are abundant. This bomb is great but Electron came along and replaced it. Why did we need Electron? Graviton was fine, it was useful and less abusable for general use; now that Electron is around the whole suction mechanic has gone stale.

As for specialized damages, it mostly comes down to how much more damage you get out of using it: damage increase and decrease for specialized weapons are not consistent with all weapons, but averagely it comes down to 140% against vulnerable families and 30% for resistant enemies. A lot of weapons vary from this, usually from about 120-160% on vulnerable and 10%-30% for resistant, but for a pure specialized damage weapon it tends to be in that range. That means if you hit one resistant and one vulnerable target with the same pure special damage weapon you get about 170% damage, where the pure normal damage weapon would deal 200%; theoretically normal weapons have the advantage. However, split damage weapons: Brandish and Sealed lines. These things have some specialized and normal damage on the same weapon. Why do they get the best of both worlds? Back to Brandish in the old days, its charge attack used to be very unreliable; you only used it if you felt lucky. Sealed lines, more specifically Divine Avenger, has always been used for the charge attack while Gran Faust is favored for its basic attack. This is a decent counterbalance method, but both of these are pretty powerful. Does that mean to nerf Sealed and Brandish lines only? No, almost all swords are substantially powerful. Not to say that all swords are overpowered, such as Spur line; which has a decent mechanic for its worth. Three Rings threw a lazy gun and bomb buff instead of nerfing swords somewhat recently. Why? Apparently nerfing something would upset people so instead they buffed the other end. Now knights do even more ridiculously high damage. Has anyone compared our damage to what enemies do? Our rates are absurd. They should nerf all the weapons down to force us to be more strategic in combat to survive and fight at the same time rather than smashing everything in a few seconds.

Polaris. Pulsar. This thing is abused so often that if I worked for Three Rings I would remove it from the game and fix it immediately. No, I do not ever play Lockdown. This thing has high damage, a significant status, and is easily spammed; it also has knockback that makes your team sad. Pulsars can be used well be a competent gunner, but that 5% of Pulsar users does not counterbalance how abusable this thing is. I know there have been countless threads everywhere about this gun but it Seerusly needs to be changed. Big Angry and Irontech on the Blast branches are also underplayed. Big Angry is supposed to have more bang for the buck and have more knockback while Nitronome is more spammable and has a bigger area of effect, but Big Angry still lacks where it should shine; it already has the knockback it needs, but its damage rates are pretty wimpy. I have notes on buffing it here. As for Irontech, I leave that to someone who uses it enough to form their own balances. Catalyzers are in dire need of a buff. A few threads have also been created for the disowned Roarmulus gun, it usually comes down to making the mines more useful as explosives such as making the mines detonate automatically if the tagged target dies. If that same target was in a giant crowd of enemies then they all blow up with it. Then it would be too bomb-esque and Nick would probably want to take it away, too.

Calibur lines
Neutral target, no damage buffs, D29; this sounds like what I do in my thread.

Easy on buffing Vanquisher. We want it to be a demi-specialist weapon, not overpowered. I have some stuff for Vanquisher and Fang of Vog here as well. Vanquisher is similar to Wild Hunting; pure normal damage, but +3 family bonus. When the math kicks in for Vanquisher I agree to increasing the family bonus, but not to adding curse; by the way, Faust and Gran Faust already have the ability to inflict curse on their second swings and charge attacks though the charge may curse the user. As for Fang of Vog, its basic attack is fine as it is in terms of swing speed. Use it for the charge attack and risk being burned, not a better version of Leviathan for general use. Unlike the Calibur lines, the slower swing rate for Vog allows its spinning charge attack to hit four times instead of three. Keep this in mind when changing the charge damage. Also, the chance to inflict fire for Vog is for all three of its basic swings and on all swings of the charge attack.

Brandish lines

That damage change is enormous. It would literally make this weapon useless. I would just change its charge back to the previous style where it had a chance to make up to however many explosions as its star rank, but to cut one of its legs off is very drastic. The status you want to give Nightblade line is just ridiculously overpowered. Complete negation of damage half the time for ten seconds? All three parts of it are ridiculous. You may as well un-nerf all the Seerus bombs then double all their damage rates on top of that.

Cutter lines

This weapons is supposed to fit the dagger archetype with multiple quick consecutive slashes though most spam its basic attack everywhere they can. This is silly. Both lines have pure normal damage but different bonuses, Dread Venom having poison and Wild Hunting having a family bonus against beast. A dagger is not supposed to deal particularly high damage, but has decent utility when you can land a few quick slashes at the moment. No changing its damage type. The poisoning effect for Dread Venom befits the idea of a venomous assassin, though Wild Hunting seems out of place for a dagger; its family bonus could use an increase seeing as its counterpart has a status, though not a particularly offensive based status, but no changing damage types from pure normal.

Flourish and Snarble lines

Final and Barbarous lines are fine as they are, Flamberge and Rigadoon need to be buffed to catch up; most likely through their statuses to make them more appealing. Swords in general could use a nerf but some are already beaten down as they are. Final and Barbarous are on the high end while Flamberge and Rigadoon are under thumb.

Troika lines

I am beginning to doubt you even use most of these weapons. Troika is supposed to be part of the "guardian" archetype, you can cleave enemies off allies but still do some damage. The damage could use a little buff, but nailing that much more onto it and that kind of charge attack is ridiculous. Its charge attack is fine as it is if you can aim, why should it suddenly be Nitronome with a status to make it overpowered with more overpowered? I have stuff for Troika lines here.

Sealed lines

Sealed lines have their basic attack rates further from each other while Troika lines are closer; this is intentional. Why are you cutting its feet off?

Seerus hammers

This weapon suffers from the same hate Flourish lines receive. The first swing is still about the same as it currently is, but the final swing of the basic attack is nailed. This weapon has no normal damage to share with unlike Brandish and Sealed lines and requires more skill to use.

Spur

No comments. None which are appropriate.

Autogun lines

Its rate of fire is fine, it has rapid attacks, but the changes to its damage type is unjustifiable. It works fine with normal damage. The reason very few people use it is because it pushes the enemy away, which forces the user to be more strategic to fully take advantage of its combat utility rather than vomiting pointy bullets everywhere with Blitz. I have stuff for V.Pepperbox here.

Catalyzer lines

You suggest no changes, I have nothing to bounce.

Pulsar lines

You want to increase the damage. Get out.

Magnus lines

Magnus lines are usually used for more damage for less boolit. I have stuff for it here.

Blast lines

"Fast" and "good" are not viable values. Nitronome has a blast radius of four, base charge time of five seconds, fuse rate of two seconds, and knockback of about two spaces. Do you even have these weapons? Big Angry has a blast radius of three, base charge time of six seconds, fuse rate of four seconds, and knockback of about five spaces. I do not have Irontech but I assume it has most of its values around the middle point of these two but its blast radius is still only three. Nitronome has less damage per hit but more speed in charge time and area of effect but Big Angry has more knockback and damage per hit. I leave Irontech to someone who uses it, but for Big Angry I can fight you over the damage rates. Get rid of that status, it is far too overpowered; it makes curse look like an idiot. Big Angry definitely needs a buff, but nearly doubling its damage (your descriptions of its other characteristics are too vague to comment on; I do not know how long "slow" is for the charge time) without significantly crippling the rest of it would make it far too overpowered. Maybe if the base charge time is changed to ten seconds at base charge rate, but any less would be far too overpowered.

Graviton

Graviton is a strategic bomb. That status is too overpowered.

ven, 07/06/2012 - 15:27

Lyzak

Addisond, I did not say that

Addisond, I did not say that the ONLY draw of the hammer is its capacity to deal more damage than the DA line. But I did say it was a major draw.

As for the Winmillion... well, I don't know what to tell you. Three Rings is removing the Shard line because they're bombs that don't act like bombs. I'm just following their sentiment. I guess I am being a little harsh when I say they should just be removed -- they're definitely not OVERpowered, but they are kind of... different. Perhaps even underpowered. /shrug

Canine-vladmire, I did not read your post because it was irrelevant and disrespectful. Perhaps you could call it a reverse TL;DR.

ArtistBMA, thanks for reading through! If you would be so kind, please tell me what you disagree with. My rebalance suggestion IS opinionated, but I try to keep the player's best interests in mind.

...except when the "player's interests" involves keeping what is overpowered because they own it. I very much understand that 90% of what I have suggested is basically a huge nerf.

Luguiru, I... haven't finished reading your post yet! XD

ven, 07/06/2012 - 15:40

Lyzak

@ Luguiru, regarding "Specializer Weapons"

The biggest problem with weapons that have "Damage Versus ____________" is that a specialty damage bonus does not stack next to a generic damage bonus. Anyone with two Elite Slash trinkets and a single piece of Vog or Snarbolax (or the other way around) reaches "Damage Bonus: Maximum" for every monster, and the "Damage Bonus Versus Undead/Beast" is totally moot. The swords are supposed to be good against whatever it is they're designed for, but they aren't... because I can deal more damage with any elemental weapon in the game (or any piece weapon).

Ultimately, this means that the game needs a new kind of mechanic that these swords can utilize to be useful. Something like "Gets to be an Elemental Weapon against Undead only, and is otherwise a normal weapon," or something like that. Something SK doesn't currently support.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 08:15

Lyzak

@ Luguiru -- the full response

First off, thanks for your opinions. But... you're a little snippy at times. I don't think I quite deserved some of what you threw at me.

But I'll respond anyhow. A thorough response is a thorough response.

1) As a general note, the point of this "balance" was to make all weapons viable for use. While there is the concept of "well, what was it SUPPOSED to be used for," the argument kind of goes down the toilet. As even you mentioned, most of the combat in this game is relatively... let's call it "straight-forward." So in a sense, you use weapons to hurt things. Period.

2) I already mentioned my beef with "specialty weapons" above.

3) I'm not sure about the Fang of Vog. Perhaps you're right and it's fine as is, but I feel like most people just treat it as a "cool thing to have" and not a real weapon. Its charge is nice if it can hit all four times, but... well, this is something you'll have to fill me in on. I was under the impression it had knockback, so what really is the chance that it will hit four times?

4) In general, a lot of what I did to the swords was exactly what you were saying... somewhat crudely. Cutting their legs off. Most of this was in an effort to fix the problem with normal weapons being relatively useless due to arsenal stations and the abundance of powerful special-damage weapons. I'm not sure what to tell you about the Brandishes, but you were very adamant about it, so please tell me what you'd rather do. Being a dual-damage weapon, and having a charge attack that is the one they currently have, I'm tempted to call them at least mildly overpowered. It's a sword-gun-bomb when used like that.

All the swords got punched in the gut in my rebalance suggestion. That was intentional. Consider again what you said: This game is too much of "clear the room in seconds with repetitive spam" and not "survive and fight cooperatively."

5) Don't know what to say about the status I suggested. It was a sidewise suggestion, not a "The game DEFINITELY needs this!" The intent was simply to illustrate that shadow weapons have nothing going for them. I would not say that the appropriate thing to do is make shadow weapons more powerful. They should be as powerful as every other kind of special-type damage. It's just that, while most counterparts to shadow weapons get bonus effects, the shadow weapons themselves do not. This irritates me.

6) If the cutter line is supposed to be a "quick dagger" weapon, then the Wild Hunter Blade is totally useless.

...but I don't understand the rest of your argument. With the exception of changing the WHB to half/piercing because it's SUPPOSED to be a weapon specialized against beasts (also, there are no half-piecing weapons yet. Why is elemental so special?), I changed nothing with those two swords.

7) The flourishes. I nerfed their damage like I nerfed all the other swords damage (where appropriate). Other than that, I changed nothing. Again, the idea is to make special-damage weapons, special... and make Normal-damage Weapons more suitable for general use.

8) Troika line. PLEASE do not give me the "you don't use these weapons," ordeal. I JUST went through the long and laborious process of doing just that -- getting myself a Triglav for a potential "guardian" set. I was horrified at just how useless the weapons are.

Charges are nice as is. Okay, whatever. But the swords still suck. No one plays guardian for a reason, it turns out. The damage sucks. They feel useless. There are no teammates that NEED an enemy to get "cleaved off them." Gunners can hold their own. Swordsmen certainly can hold their own. Really, if enemies are getting the chance to close in on you, it's too late to knock em back. The knockback from DA and GF is decent enough to get that job done if they needed to, anyhow.

Now, are the charges I proposed overpowered? Possibly. I don't know. But the swords need more damage, and that's that.

9) "Sealed lines have their basic attack rates further from each other while Troika lines are closer; this is intentional."

I do not understand what you are saying. Please elaborate.

10) I don't know what you're saying about the Hammer. However, I did make a mistake where I nerfed the last hit and forgot to nerf the first one. This isn't a matter of "I hate the weapon" (though it is OP in lockdown), but what I've been doing with all weapons with a specialty damage type -- cutting them down a level. I'll go back and suggest the first hit is lower, too.

11) Spur line. I need to edit what I said. The line is underpowered and relatively useless in my opinion. That does not justify removing them, and I apologize for... offending? any of its avid fans. But what is going on right now with the shard bomb changes is a sentiment I'm reflecting here. Swords are swords. A sword is not a gun. Bombs are bombs. Bombs are not guns. I don't know what to say, there isn't a 5* equivalent of it anyhow, so I can't really consider it endgame.

12) I was not aware the V. Pepperbox pushed enemies away. But having said that, I've also never seen it used. Once. Perhaps the solution is BOTH to make it an elemental weapon (so it doesn't have to compete with the Blitz Needle) and remove its knockback. I don't know?

...

But there should still be a normal-type autogun line XD

13) Pulsar lines. You quit early -- I suggested a damage increase for the Supernova. This is true. But I CERTAINLY did not suggest a damage increase for the Polaris. I nerfed that. And in addition, I suggested that there only be two bullets per clip in both weapons.

If you still find the damage bonus on the SN offensive, perhaps the way to go about this is to nerf them both. Let the Supernova keep the knockback, but kill the knockback on the Polaris. Still only two shots per clip.

14) You're agreeing, I think? I didn't say add more bullets. I did say add more damage. So... it's all good, right? Because as the weapons currently stand, the damage difference between the Iron Slug and the Valiance is considerably small. Valiance is also a 3-shot weapon, not 2-shot, and can be shot while moving.

15) Please cut out the belittling. I do not HAVE accurate statistics on the bombs because my information sources were incomplete. Since you're so competent, please head over to the wiki and give the bomb section a little sprucing up. It could use it...

However, I will go back and simply put "no change" where appropriate. I'm pretty sure the only thing I changed was, in fact, the damage. With the exception of the Irontech, where I changed the fuse to "almost immediately." .5 seconds, basically. Same as the Shard Bombs.

--
--
--

Thanks for the strongly worded response. Just know that I'm trying to offer honest and helpful opinions, and I am not the bane of the universe simply because I included something that was inaccurate, or because I hate the Spur line. Get back to me if you have time/patience.

--Lyzák

sam, 07/07/2012 - 00:35

Theopholis

I think you missed the part

Where normal damage is supposed to do less than specialized damage. Otherwise there would be no point in specializing.

Normal weapons are meant to be all around good, but not great. You have to spend 3x as much to get a set of specialized weapons, and have to be carrying two to make sure your covered.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 02:04

Fehzor

Go read my book.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53465

I wrote an entire section on balancing weapons and armors and everything else. Maybe even go and tell me what you think of it.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 03:30

#10

Zeddy

@Theopholis

Where normal damage is supposed to do less than specialized damage.
It's supposed to do less against specialized targets, yes. As it stands it does more against neutral targets as well, so you only need two specialized weapons to outperform a normal weapon on every monster.

That sounds pretty general for a specialized loadout.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 05:10

#11

Artistbma

@OP

Ok, the BIGGEST problem is the Nitronome charge for Suda. First of all, this charge (By what Ive read) would do tons more damage than the nitronome, so bomb users would get the Sudaruska instead of the Nitronome.

This "blindness" would make the game easier. Too eaaaasy.

Winmillion is fine. The reason OOO hasnt made a 5* of it is because it would be to OP. The Winmillion is very powerful as it is. If you were to add a 5* it would be tooo OP. The four star has a 6 hit combo with 3 energy projectiles? 5* would definitely be Overpowered.

Polaris. I don't have one. Lowering the dmg sounds fine. But taking away the knockback, thats basically the POINT of the Polaris.

Couple other things I wanted to say, forgot about em. Im too lazy to look for them

EDIT: Oh you got rid of the first one.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 06:18

#12

Zephyrgon

NO NO NO

If you're saying we need to nerf swords then heck no. Gun and Bomb buff please. Also, have you ever thought that the Wolver set might be to blame. I mean, 5* is pretty balanced, but the armors before that create a huge advantage for swordies. Have this armor nerfed, then you get balanced.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 08:16

#13

Lyzak

@ Zephyrgon; Sorry -- you missed the point. (/o.o)/

Sorry Zephyrgon; you missed the point. The problem isn't as simple as "swords deal a little too much damage," in a way that can be attributed to armor. And, if you're telling me that 5* wolver armors are balanced, then you're totally missing the point -- this rebalance is from the perspective of endgame (5*), so if 5* wolver is balanced (your words) then it CAN'T be to blame. Additionally, the problem with buffing guns and bombs MORE is that it makes the game easier, and this is something Three Rings does not like. I'm simply appealing to their sentiment.

Finally, I didn't JUST nerf swords. I changed their stats around. The idea of the suggestion was to make ALL weapons viable for use.

Let me repeat that now:

THE IDEA IS TO MAKE ALL WEAPONS VIABLE FOR USE.

Simple buffing guns and bombs does not result in all weapons being viable for use. It results in the currently overused guns and bombs being more viable for use, and takes a massive **** on the currently underused swords, guns AND bombs at the same time. This was a comprehensive shuffle-around to solve all of these problems at once, while making the game somewhat harder by lowering the average damage output.

Sorry you don't like that. I can't make everyone happy, and "buffing everything in the game except the overused items" is kind of silly when it's easier to make the overused items weaker. I would then have to go ahead and buff all the monsters too, to accommodate the crazy amounts of damage we have in the game as a result.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 08:14

#14

Lyzak

@ Theopholis -- About normal damage

You are correct. Against a zombie and constructs at least, elemental damage is suppose to hit harder than normal damage. But elemental damage isn't supposed to hit harder than normal damage against all monsters in the game. That would, inversely, make no point in HAVING a normal-damage weapon. Currently, you deal only a little less damage with a Divine Avenger (or Brandish-Line Sword) against monsters that resist elemental damage than you would with a normal-type weapon.

Please do not be confused: I ONLY list the base damage of these weapons. If you want to do the math, when a weapon is "super-effective" against something, it will deal somewhere in the range of 115% to 150% damage, depending on the weapon, how close you are to stratum 6, the star of the weapon and some random mathematical fuzz that's far too complicated for me to figure out. SK has some demented mathematical algorithms.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 10:38

#15

Theopholis

I deal 350's to Zombies with my WRH, and only 130's to an oilier that's on fire. I havent' tried it on something actually resistant to elemental recently, but it'll be less than that still. That's a big drop. Personally, I find that there is a significant difference, which is why I carry two swords at all times.

sam, 07/07/2012 - 13:24

#16

Hmmnm

Some things you might have missed...

Cutter charge takes to much time to execute. It also doesn't interrupt enemies, making it unusable without sacrificing some health.

Catalyzer has a lot of potential. However, the mechanic of having to reshoot your charges (with slow moving mini bullets) makes this gun unusable except for the slowest and most predictable enemies.
Possible solutions: Make the charges explode if t is hit by a. a regular catalyzer bullet b. another catalyzer explosion c. if the charge was stuck onto the enemy for more than 20 sec or d. if the tagged enemies dies.

In short, just let catalyzer charges go boom instead of dissapearing. No need for damage buffs for catalyzer

dim, 07/08/2012 - 21:48

#17

Lyzak

Catalyzerss (/o.o)/

Having a nicer Catalyzer line would be really nice too... but I don't know how to approach it. It's a gun that will always act like a bomb, something that Three Rings is expressing great distaste in considering the Shard Bomb update.

mar, 07/10/2012 - 21:59

#18

Lyzak

Any other thoughts? o.O

mer, 07/11/2012 - 07:19

#19

Lukehandkooler

@ Catalyzer

I think it would be a wonderful idea to buff/enhance catalyzer charge mechanics so that when the owner of a set charge swaps to any other weapon (or shields maby) the charges detonate. Being that the current position of the charge's gravitation around enemy determines the direction of the knockback this would make the gun more team friendly (for those so inclined).

This also addresses the issue of charges going to waste. I know for a fact that slimes have A.I to hide behind any other enemy nearby if they are holding a charge and make anxious or inexperienced or downright PO'd catalyzer users drop their DPS and focus on trying to hit their charge at all costs before it gets one shottyd by some acheron shadow napalm wave.

~Luke

sam, 07/21/2012 - 17:48

#20

Lyzak

@ Catalyzer

I'm not sure charges detonating when you switch weapons is balanced. In fact, I'm not even sure charges detonating after 30 seconds instead of vanishing is balanced. But one way or another, that stupid gun needs some serious help =\

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