Spiral Knights - Normal Damage Weapon Suggestions

Normal Damage Weapon Suggestions

8 replies [Last post]

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 14:58

Trollingyou

Normal weapons do not fit well anywhere right now. Their intended role of being “Jack-of-all-trade” weapons is overshadowed by attributed weapons. To help put this in perspective here is an example:

This assumes all weapons have no family bonuses and only 2 equipment slots are used. Each “O” represents how effective it is against each mob type on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being the most effective.

Using two normal damage weapons:

Beast: OOO
Gremlin: OOO
Construct: OOO
Undead: OOO
Fiend: OOO
Slime: OOO

Using one pierce and one elemental weapon:

Beast: OOOOO
Gremlin: OOO
Construct: OOOOO
Undead: OOOOO
Fiend: OOOOO
Slime: OOO

Using one normal and one elemental weapon:

Beast: OOO
Gremlin: OOO
Construct: OOOOO
Undead: OOOOO
Fiend: OOO
Slime: OOO

As you can see, by using even just one attributed weapon, your setup even with only two weapon slots becomes that much more effective, without sacrificing anything at all. Normal damage weapons currently are what the name suggests: Average. The problem with them being average is that attributed weapons can be both average and effective, meaning they do not lose anything against a normal damage weapon. The only case where this current balancing would work is if there was only one weapon slot, but we get two weapon slots for free, so that is out of the question.

Normal damage weapons should be made above average, but not exceptional. What I mean is for the balance to be like this:

Using two normal damage weapons:

Beast: OOOO
Gremlin: OOOO
Construct: OOOO
Undead: OOOO
Fiend: OOOO
Slime: OOOO

Using one pierce and one elemental weapon:

Beast: OOOOO
Gremlin: OOO
Construct: OOOOO
Undead: OOOOO
Fiend: OOOOO
Slime: OOO

Using one normal and one elemental weapon:

Beast: OOOO
Gremlin: OOOO
Construct: OOOOO
Undead: OOOOO
Fiend: OOOO
Slime: OOOO

You see here, by keeping a normal damage weapon in your arsenal, you can have above average effectiveness against each family type. By not having a normal damage weapon and two specialized weapons you’re giving up above average effectiveness for more specialization. With two weapon slots, this would work. However, with three or more weapon slots, we all know that you can be exceptionally effective against everything in damage, and to some extent in utility too. So, what I would suggest is to give normal damage weapons a form of utility that attributed weapons do not have. Whether it is combined forms of utility or just something unique to that weapon. This may take some time, but here are a few ideas that I/others currently have (Keep in mind some of these ideas may not be new, just putting them all the ones that appear in this thread together):

Valiance Ideas:

Alter the charge attack so that the initial bullet is smaller (Like that of the alchemers) and keep the blast radius the same size it is now. This will make it easier to hit multiple targets with the blast radius rather than having one big bullet run into a mob in front of a crowd and only hitting that one mob, simply because the space is not big enough to hit the crowd.

Volcanic Pepperbox Ideas:

Reduce the knockback of the charge attack, add small knockback to the normal shots, and increase the chance of fire from “slight” to “good”. The reduced knockback will help it land more shots on the charge attack and the addition of knockback on the normal shots will make it a less damaging but safer in comparison to the blitz needle. Higher chance of fire is obviously for more fire.

Iron Slug Ideas:

Athaza suggests to make the charge attack pierce through multiple enemies like the way the final bullet of sentenza/AP does.
Luguiru suggests that the Iron Slug has more knockback than the Callahan if this change were to occur.

Supernova Ideas:

Take away the knockback, add interrupt (Like what the Callahan has) instead. Alter the explosion graphic to make it easier to see through them or have silhouettes appear through the explosions so people can see what is happening (would be nice for more than just this weapon actually). The main purpose of this is to make it easier to chain shots on a target and also make it more party friendly than the Polaris.

Neutralizer Ideas:

Hmmnm suggests that the charges explode after a set amount of time and have explosions set off other explosions.
Luguiru suggests that the explosions are set off when the mob that has the charges dies.

Sudaruska and Triglav Ideas:

Increase their range. The sword is obviously bigger than the sealed lines, so why does it have the same reach? Increasing the range on them would allow then to keep more mobs at bay and fulfill their I-smash-everything role.
Luguiru suggests a slight increase in the base damage of these weapons as well.

Leviathan Ideas:

Slightly increase the speed of the normal attack swings, so it’s faster than a brandish but slower than a flourish. This will make the normal attack a little more useful, as the charge is already great.
Luguiru suggests to keep the sword the way it is.

Cold Iron Vanquisher Ideas:

Same as Leviathan and increase its base damage slightly, but still keep it under Leviathan.
Luguiru suggests to increase the undead bonus to very high.

Dread Venom Striker/Wild Hunting Blade Ideas:

Read here, since it has some good ideas: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/59117
Luguiru suggests the weapons are fine and left alone as is.

Winmillion Ideas:

Change the charge so it acts like a short range boomerang. When released, it will go straight out a small distance, and reverse direction so it comes back to the user. It will constantly damage anything it touches similar to how the Antigua’s birds do, and it will push monsters it hits to the edge of the boomerang’s range. The user cannot move during this time. Also, make a 5 star version of it.
Hmmnm suggests that the user is able to move during this charge and that the disc pulls mobs back with it.

Nitronome Ideas:

Grittle and Luguiru suggests that this bomb be left alone and is good as it is.
Luguiru suggests that the animation be toned down, and I'm pretty sure the entire SK community would agree, unless they were using it to troll parties (but there is still Trollaris for that).

Big Angry Bomb Ideas:

Increase its damage by 15-20 percent. Big Angry Bomb should have the blast that says, “Stay down bro."
Grittle suggests in addition to this that the bomb gets a faster fuse, less knockback, and increased blast radius.
Luguiru suggests the bomb gets ~11% damage increase.

Irontech Destroyer Ideas:

Grittle suggests that this bomb gets an all around performance increase (Faster movement while charging, 5 percent damage increase, faster charge time, and increased blast radius)
Luguiru suggests that this bomb be balanced as the midway point between Nitronome and Big Angry Bomb.

Heavy Deconstructor Ideas:

Grittle suggests that this bomb gets a slight damage and charge time boost, as well as a 5 star version.
Luguiru suggests that the bomb's construct bonus is increased maximum and that's it's 5 star version has slightly less base damage than the nitronome.

If anyone has ideas for any of these weapons, even ones that already have ideas, mention it and I will throw it into this list with your name by it.

Tue, 07/17/2012 - 08:00

Athaza

Iron Slug/Callahan

I'd like to see Iron Slug's charge attack pierce through multiple enemies like the way the final bullet of sentenza/peace keeper does.

EDIT: I would also prefer Callahan to have a Good chance of causing Low FREEZE rather than the STUN chance it has now.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 17:53

Trollingyou

Iron Slug

I wouldn't mind this change either. They did say the Magnus lines are getting a buff for sure though.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 18:30

Grittle

nitro doesn't need change,

nitro doesn't need change, its already a bomber's best friend and won best bomb choice award 2 years in a row.

irontech needs a HUGE buff, its awfully slow while charging, only slightly above normal nitro damage, and a ridiculouslly long charge, only way it can be avrage is to make it faster while charging, 5% damage increase, and a larger blast radiance.

decon also needs a slight buff, add a 5* version (i.e- incinerator) mabey add a small damage boost and CTR, because its only meant to be red roarmulios twin rushed right now

BAB also needs a faster fuse, less knockback, and larger blast zone along side the damage buff

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 18:59

Trollingyou

Bombs

Thanks for the feedback, your suggestions has been added. Looks like I may have to alter the format a bit to fit more suggestions, lol.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 20:48

Hmmnm

Neutralizer

The catalyzer line damage isn't actually that bad. It isn't popular because it is very hard to use (Not only do you have o hit things with a small and slow bullet, you have to reshoot a specific enemy in the crowd to use the charge attack).

Solutions:
a. Chain reaction: Catalyzer explosions set off charges on another enemy.
b. Have the charges explode after 20 sec instead of dissapearing.
c. Have the charges explode if the tagged enemy dies.

Volcanic Pepperbox used to be able to "suck" enemies in with their attacks, which helped it do full damage. I wish they would put that mechanism back on its charge attack.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 19:34

Hmmnm

An idea...

The Winmillion boomerang would be pretty useless if it had to always come back in the same path that the forward part of the attack already cleared.

How about letting the user run around while the charge attack in progrss, and have the boomerang curve back to the user (bringing back a bunch of enemies with it...)?

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 19:45

Luguiru

Dem circles

Before the addition of loadout stations between floors excluding boss series stratum, normal weapons were very important for Arcade runs. Since the update all you need to know is which one or two specialized damage type weapons to take with you. Mathematically normal weapons have a significant advantage, but the easy access to switch to a specialized weapon has diminished reliance on how versatile your weapons have to be in order to survive.

Valiance is essentially a shotgun. I know that seems strange, because it is, but it has significant utility for a decent gunner and/or bomber as a sidearm to pick enemies off your face.

Pepperbox used to have a vacuum effect which would force targets to come closer to take more hits combined with its pure normal damage and chance to inflict fire; this made it compete with Blitz. When they changed the vacuum effect to repelling it created another abusable feature: pinning a target in place. Due to the lack of complaints against this I suspect very few people know how to use it. The rapid bullets and pure normal damage decently compensate the low rate of fire, but adding pushback to the normal attack would benefit this weapon greatly as a leaf blow and burn device.

A piercing/penetrating effect is not a new idea. However, it has potential; line up several enemies, pop a cap through all of them. If Callahan had this piercing effect then Iron Slug could have more knockback, effectively being an iron slugger (solid hits which have a significant impact on the target) as well as becoming a desired sidearm for knockback at short range; this would conflict with Valiance to scale against the clip to knockback distances.

Supernova is very similar to a rocket launcher, namely the rocket launcher in TF2, where you can juggle a target without interrupting their sliding as with Polaris line. Both Pulsar lines are often misused by spamming a target until they are swept to Russia. Blah blah whining about Pulsar blah.

For both Catalyzer lines it has been suggested in the past to make the mines detonate when the tagged target dies or over time; the former was favored above the latter. You spent all that time tagging that one target, why should those mines go to waste? Catalyzer is our version of a sticky bomb launcher, but lacks the ability to place mines on the floor. They must be tagged onto an enemy.

I have stuff for Troika lines here to increase damage, though the end values are not too significant of a change. From my own experience Troika lines are pretty useful. Extending swing range would be difficult to balance considering damage rates, but if I were to spitball the extension would be about half or a fourth space swing radius increase. Not too much, but noticeable.

Leviathan is fine as it is, people usually avoid it because it forces the user to actually get close to the target instead of throwing things like babies.

Vanquisher is a bastardized specialist weapon, see Cautery or Hunting as other examples of this; it still has normal damage, but someone glued a family bonus on its back. I also have stuff for this here to improve its specialization ability without making it suddenly overpower Leviathan in spite of its lower knockback which is convenient for parties and chaining multiple spin impacts from the same charge attack.

Cutters are not meant to be used as Brandish, Flourish, or Sealed lines. Switch to it, vomit a few quick slashes, then zip up your pants. Try not to get anything caught.

A boomerang mechanic would most likely be thrown diagonally from the user and curve around in an arc before returning, which could work; by using the charge attack the disk would still be thrown, but instead of only traveling a short distance and dissipating like Avenger/Faust charge it could go around in an arc starting at 60 degrees from the aimed direction, arc around, then come back at the opposite side of the user. The question is how far that arc goes from the user and if the arc is more ovular or circular.

Nitronome is fine as it is, though the animation could be toned down to make it less silly.

Big Angry has more knockback and damage per hit but has a one second longer charge time, one space shorter blast radius, slower fuse, and significantly reduced movement while charging. This bomb supports the "bouncer" tactic, bouncing enemies away from a corner or something where the rest of your team is throwing projectiles without requiring you to run anywhere. I have more math for buffing its damage here though its current fuse, knockback, and radius are fine as they are. This is another one of those weird alternatives to mainstream weapons with different uses. They have their own aspirations.

Irontech is supposed to be the middle ground between Nitronome and Big Angry in essentially everything. If Big Angry were changed this would have to stretch to stay between them.

HDecon is another one of those bastardized specialist weapons with pure normal damage. Yes, I have stuff for it again.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 22:00

Trollingyou

Round circles

@Hmmnm Thanks for the feedback, your ideas have been posted. I guess being able to move with the boomerang mechanic would make for some interesting strategy. As for pepperbox, that suction mechanic is not coming back, according to the devs it was a bug and they fixed it. It was fun using it when it was here though.

@Luguiru Thanks for the feedback as well, your ideas have been posted (hope I did not miss anything). There are some things I do disagree on though.

Cutters, which are meant to be assassin-type weapons do not fit their role well enough. As the other guy in the thread I linked to pointed out, they do not do enough damage in the same time frame as other weapons when every hit connects. Why should I use a cutter to assassinate a target, when the Flourish lines or Brandish lines will do it better, and do many other things as well? Not to mention the charge which is simply suicide if there's more than three mobs present.

The "normal-specialized" weapons family bonuses should not be increased in my opinion, unless the family bonuses were reworked. Reason being is that by increasing them, you may improve the weapon but you also hinder it's room to grow. Heavier Deconstructor may have that max construct bonus, but that also means that's as good as it gets on construct. An elemental bomb would be able to get max construct as well, and leave it to join the tumbleweeds in the desert, because that's all the bomb is good for. The normal-specialized weapons are not just competing with their normal damage counterparts, they are competing with the specialized weapons that happen to be effective in the same thing.
However, if they reworked the family bonus to be a multiplier to the total damage you do (obviously not too big a multiplier) then these idea would work well.

Also, normal damage was becoming obsolete even before the arsenal stations stations were added. All you had to do was equip yourself for the first half of a tier then change equips at the halfway point for the next half if you had only two weapon slots. If you had three weapon slots and one elemental, shadow, and pierce weapon you pretty much had it made for almost anywhere. Arsenal stations only made this situation a lot worse.

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Normal Damage Weapon Suggestions