Spiral Knights - Solving a serious problem (HAHA, time for another ambitious idea!)

Solving a serious problem (HAHA, time for another ambitious idea!) - READ FIRST

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Sat, 08/25/2012 - 06:22

Deltikon

Good day knights. (yes, long wall of text incoming...)

I'm going to make another and even more extreme suggestion that I think it would improve the game even more than my last one! Basically there's something that drives off the new players at their 1st playthrough. And if you guessed it right, it's the elevator costs! Basically, many new players find this game exciting and fun, until they get slammed in the face with "loloutofenergygobuymore". And people simply detest that and leaves. In fact, this problem is so bad, my guess is that only a small fraction of new players actually come back after the 1st mist tank. You all felt this way, you play this for the 1st time and you suddenly run out of energy. You want to play for longer, but the loloutofenergy thing won't let you unless you pay real money for it (or trade it for CE, with is really silly considering you'd still be on tier 1). And people simply don't like that, it sounds like an average Zynga game. And Zynga games are awful (yes, even Farmville).

So my suggestion would be that, for the sake of this game and all newcomers in particular, to remove the elevator's energy cost. It sounds insane, I can tell that. And well it is, since if this idea was putted in practice the CE prices would skyrocket all the way to the next dimension, and if nothing else changes, making crafting 3* or higher gear impossible for the f2per, turning the game p2continue2p to absolute p2w. Which is even worse...

Solution for this? Simple, since you need energy to craft, how about being to craft stuff without it aswell? Just make an NPC, a blacksmith gremlin on preference, that allows you to craft stuff. Of course in order to be profitable for 3rings/SEGA, the CE crafting should also be available and it has to be more advantaging then Cr crafing and here's a few things I suggest that I think it's fair compared with CE and crown crafting.
- CE crafting has a higher chance of getting UVs, crown crafting does not at all. Instead, the player can talk to Punch to get one if the player wishes so.
- CE crafting has to be cheaper compared to now (half to current value from 3* and higher to be fair), in order to incentive people to craft stuff from there. For crown crafting, It requires the double of the mats (maybe even triple for some, since it's relatively easy to get most of them), and a fair price that does not require an enormous amount of grinding like it happens now. Something like this (of course we can discuss about it):
1* - 500
2* - 4000
3* - 10000
4* - 25000
5* - 50000 (edited)
- CE crafting should no longer require heating, which means you can craft all the way to the 5* without the obligation of binding it, given you have enough energy for it. Nothing changes for crown crafting on that.

Of course not just the crafting that needs a change to keep the game as normal as possible, although it is the most important, but also there's gotta be other changes to incentive people to pay money for the game asides from promotions. Solution is also simple: make stuff purchasable with CE a lot cheaper (better value for money means a bigger incentive to spend real money on the game, you all know that):
- This goes specially with the keys, on particular, the shadow lair ones, since the CE is no longer possible to obtain with real money.Actually, for that key, it should be also purchasable with crowns too to make it more fair, but with a relatively expensive price compared with buying it with CE. (400CE for it, while with crowns it would be over 100K cr);
- Unbinding should be cheaper to about the following values (sounds fair?):
0* - 5 (because why the hell not?)
1* - 25
2* - 50
3* - 150
4* - 300
5* - 600
- Slot unlockers could also be cheaper (100 for trinket - for a good reason below, and about 200 for weapon slots);
- Heat and Krogmo coin boosters also get a cheaper price (half the value should be alright).
- Yes, even the weapons sold directly on the supply depot should be cheaper too, not too much compared to the costs of crafting though...

But wait, some of you will ask: "What's the point of having the CE-cr market if the prices will go so high? No-one will simply buy the energy now, it's pointless..." Well, in that case it's simple: get rid of it. If it's useless now, then we don't need it. More, it can turn to be a good thing, since energy seller/buyers tend to rely on the market's price and removing such guide would actually be useful, since there will be a wider variety of offers than it would be possible with it. And more variety means a better chance of being capable of buying energy, although it certainly still be far more expensive than now... Doesn't mean it shouldn't be possible to trade it now though...

Also some of you will ask about the mist tank. Since elevators are free now, why do we need it anymore? Easy, there's still may applications for it:
- Soften up the costs for CE crafting
- Revivals when everyone is ded in your party (costs should be higher, about the double though)
- Buy trinket slots.

And there's a reason to be able to buy trinkets with mist. It has to do with lockdown and heart pendants. And speaking of which, since they're only craftable by the Krog's alchemy machine, there should be also recipes purchasable with krog coins in order to not make it exclusive content for the p2pers, making the pvp even more p2w than it already is. Same thing goes for the weapon status boosters. Remember, people should only pay money to skip the grinding or to get a fancier character, and not to get an unfair advantage over f2pers.

And there's another thing important that I'm sure many of you will tell me and complain about - elevator passes. Since there would be no elevator costs, they would become useless... So, for those who bought it just before the update, they should have the value of their passes redeemed to an appropriate amount of energy value for them. And for those who had one but it has already been used long ago, please go away. You paid to get a month free of elevator charges. You got your full month for free earlier than anyone else, so you shouldn't complain about it... This part is just for those who didn't took the full time and advantage of it.

And for those who still think it's a terrible idea, I have something for you: less limitations means more fun, more fun means more people, more people means more wallets, more wallets means a bigger chance for them buying something with real money! Think about it. And not only that, but it would be very likely to make Spiral Knights one of the best, if not THE best free mmo out there! Maybe even better than maplestory! Maybe... Seriously, how many reviewers dropped a few points on their final score because of the energy limitation? A lot of them! And it's not just the own website's reviewers that bashed the game because of that, so the the players did too. I can show about 10 or even more links that proves this right. Or just google it, it's easy to find anyways.

So in a nutshell: In order to make the elevator cost removing viable:
>Make stuff craftable without energy aswell
>Cheapen the stuff that cost CE (and make shadow lair keys purchasable with crowns too)
>Remove the CE-cr market (still make the CE tradable like always though), if possible.
>Compensate recent elevator pass purchasers with equivalent worth in CE

And to make things even more exciting, this should be implemented on the same day as the Core would open (implying it will ever happen ;_;)

And I think that's it. And now I should run away from people who wants to feed me to the wolvers because they think my idea is stupid. Also apologies for eventual engrish and typos.

Thoughts? /run

EDIT: Please keep the wall of texts to a minimum...

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 06:26

Thunderbog

...

I know ye're trying so hard and I look only a little and scrolled down, trying to do an conclusion.

There are pros and cons of whatever ye make, ye know.
People would just be very tired of looking these suggestions, I say...
So, just let it rest, 'boyo.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 06:30

Deltikon

Dude...

Have you even readed the whole thread? You can't just jump to the conclusions like that...

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 06:51

Thunderbog

...

We are tired of looking stuffs like these, really.

No offense, but every thread such as these we made is somewhat related to the CE market skyrockets. It's like an erection.

Mr. Popovich, or any GM should have reviewed and discussed suggestions like these with us by commenting to our suggestion threads earlier, and it's been a year that maybe I had not seen a GM trying to discuss about crystal energies.

I'm sick of it. Nobody is trying to help. Not even Luguiru's branching. We only see the pros and cons of our comments and nothing happened.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 06:55

Deltikon

You really didn't readed the thread, did you?

Im saying to make the crafting possible even without using energy. The CE prices can go all the way to the next universe as far as I care, but as long as it's possible to craft with just crowns I'm not giving a single care.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:01

Thunderbog

Still CE related.

Spiral Knights itself is based on Energy, if ye removed crafting energy cost, what is the use of energy?
Unless people are lazy and spent 10$ and bought a single 5* stuff, I'll consider them too rich to spend.

I know ye're trying to help but, just.. think again. We aren't the ones who manipulate the game, we only know how to suggest stuffs to the developers. And most of the threads, for instance like this one, are easily ignored and rejected.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:07

Deltikon

Right

Because breast plates are more important than fixing a real issue of the game? And you definitely didn't readed the thread. Let me help you then:

"Solution for this? Simple, since you need energy to craft, how about just be able to craft stuff without it? Just make an NPC, a blacksmith gremlin on preference, that allows you to craft stuff. Of course in order to be profitable for 3rings/SEGA, the CE crafting should also be available and it has to be more advantaging then Cr crafing and here's a few things I suggest that I think it's fair compared with CE and crown crafting.
- CE crafting has a higher chance of getting UVs, crown crafting does not at all. Instead, the player can talk to Punch to get one if the player wishes so.
- CE crafting has to be cheaper compared to now (half to current value from 3* and higher to be fair), in order to incentive people to craft stuff from there. For crown crafting, It requires the double of the mats (maybe even triple for some, since it's relatively easy to get most of them), and a fair price that does not require an enormous amount of grinding like it happens now. Something like this (of course we can discuss about it):
1* - 400cr
2* - 1,000cr
3* - 5,000cr
4* - 15,000cr
5* - 35,000cr
- CE crafting should no longer require heating, which means you can craft all the way to the 5* without the obligation of binding it, given you have enough energy for it. Nothing changes for crown crafting on that."

I'm not saying to get rid of the CE craft, I'm just saying to add an extra option for the sake of f2pers. And to turn the CE crafting more advantageous than just with crowns. Now will you actually read the thread and tell me what you think?

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:15

Thunderbog

"CE crafting has a higher

"CE crafting has a higher chance of getting UVs, crown crafting does not at all. Instead, the player can talk to Punch to get one if the player wishes so."

"CE crafting should no longer require heating, which means you can craft all the way to the 5* without the obligation of binding it, given you have enough energy for it. Nothing changes for crown crafting on that."

Ye're turning this game into some sort of adding Cash Shop related stuffs.

Here's another thing I just saw while scrolling down:

">Remove the CE-cr market (still make the CE tradable like always though), if possible."

I... really need ye to rethink again, is this what ye really want? From what I know now, the problem only lies between Tier 2's economy issues. 2.5k crowns payout is really low, I know that.

...

If ye were to continue helping them, I recommend waiting for a developer response. Everyone who tried to suggest this kind of thread has been rejected and driven down.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:24

Deltikon

Actually...

Unbinding stuff is not really important for a f2per, and if it's much of a issue, make it able to pay in crowns too, or just craft some unbinding tool that does the job aswell. And remember that you still can craft ask punch to put a UV on the stuff (should be cheaper though)

I'm saying to get rid of the market if possible, but to still be able to trade CE with actual player to player trading, not with the market..

And does this looks like the average BAWWW, GET REED OF CEE thread?

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:28

Thunderbog

"I'm saying to get rid of the

"I'm saying to get rid of the market if possible, but to still be able to trade CE with actual player to player trading, not with the market.."

So ye actually dislike marketing?

"And does this looks like the average BAWWW, GET REED OF CEE thread?"

What are ye thoughts then? Do ye wish that energy in this game to disappear forever?

If I recall, there was a very long thread about people said before they used to play without energy. I suppose it was in-development of the game.
(anyone can correct me if I am wrong for this one)

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:35

#10

Derpules

Um.

One question: if CE wasn't needed to craft or to run levels, and could not easily be exchanged for cr. . . why would anyone buy it?

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:37

#11

Deltikon

Marketing - The action or

Marketing - The action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising. Nothing to do with what I said.

And no, do you even read? I'm not saying to make it disappear, I'm saying to remove the elevator costs and make f2pers less dependent of the CE.

And as for no-one paid for energy before, I honestly have no idea... And even if it did, it wouldn't really matter now.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:41

#12

Deltikon

Acessories, I guess

People could sell CE via trading so they can get extra money to get them. And you still are able to craft with CE...

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 07:55

#13

Thunderbog

...

Screw what I said about marketing, but removing the CE market would be stupid, remember I said about ye turning this game adding a Cash Shop priviledge.

The market provides a ensured supplies and demands. For instance, the player sells CE in the market, one of the player buys.

If ye are going to base these on trading, let's say... the cons are having more scammers.
(or even people would haggle prices, nifty!)

"And no, do you even read? I'm not saying to make it disappear, I'm saying to remove the elevator costs and make f2pers less dependent of the CE."

Question, not statement. Do ye wish that energy in this game disappear forever?

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:06

#14

Deltikon

ugh...

Maybe you're right about the market, it's silly... and you are kinda right about the scammers... although it would be hilarious to see people haggling for CE. :)

And well, i did said about not making the cash shop an unfair advantage. But i also did said that it could be used to skip grinding. And by increasing chance, i don't mean a enormous boost, just a small one to incentive to spend some money on the game And well, if you really want the UVs, but not enough money, get some crowns and ask Punch to punch the gear. UVs are nice, but not necessary, unlike the gear. And before you say something about it, you still are able to get uvs, you might need to grind a little more, but you are still able to. That's the point.

And no, not really... I just want the elevator costs gone, but without making a mess on the game, that's all...

Unrelated to the topic, are you scottish?

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:22

#15

Thunderbog

I hate cash shop stuffs.

I hate cash shop stuffs. Really.

If only ye could find someone to gift stuffs for ye nicely, I'll be gladly to pay that person back. It is just that, ye a little faith. :/

I'm already glad this game is F2P, CE is the top priority that I can have, no extra stuffs that I can not get with real life cash and things things things etc.

I just want to know from yer answer, that's all. A no is a no.

Ye do what ye want from this thread now on, if there's no change, hopefully ye should just play yer game and let the others be.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:39

#16

Deltikon

Hmm...

I suppose you do, nothing wrong with them as long as they don't sell exclusive content (unfortunatly it's the case of the shadow keys (which doesn't really matter because the stuff you craft there are mostly gibberish and you still have danger missions for challenge), and weapon slots in my idea... could be solved somehow though...)

And yeah, but it comes to a cost of only being limited to play a couple of hours a day, which is a thing that many people don't like. It's a good thing it's not entirely p2w though (except maybe for lockdown...).

And well, maybe I am worried a bit too much about this, but fixing these problems is far more important than boob plate acessories... Still, cutting the CE costs on crafting is good enough for me, if OOO ever manages to do that...

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I wonder what other people think about this though...

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:44

#17

Vaclavv

I'm going to comment on the

I'm going to comment on the thing about new players since there is something to it. The rest of the post would seriously undermine the fabric of the game and actually goes counter to patches to the economy that OOO has made in the past.

My thought is this. Instead of giving new players a mist tank, give them a one to two day ele pass?

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:54

#18

Deltikon

Thing is, I didn't mean it's

Thing is, I didn't mean it's not just one-time mist tank and that's it. I meant the same mist we use everyday... You probably got that though. And 2-day elevator pass could help them enjoy a bit longer, but it would happen the same thing. Plus, it might be even abused by some players.
My idea was to allow people to play freely, but trying to keep things as close as they are now (except the CE cost prices, they do need to go down)

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:57

#19

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

I am not entirely sure that the prices of cr crafting would be enough to offset the massive deluge of cr incoming from infinite FSC grinding. We already had a lesser issue from the elevator passes. Unfortunately, the people I can see profiting the most from this are those who are already obscenely rich, since they are capable of getting access to FSC easily and repeatably.
I am not an immediate fan of this.
Choobski's suggestion sounds a better one to me, to be honest.

As for the rest, I agree that the price of certain items in Kozma's bag of trinkets is exorbitant, and that the cost could do with something of a reduction. I get the impression the reduction should be about a third or so, but that's just me and I suspect you would need to do some fiddling with the price to come up with something acceptable.

Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Thunderbog is in fact azn. I might be hallucinating, though.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:02

#20

Thunderbog

Somewhere? :)

Ye're not hallucinating, 'boyo.

If ye notice Enclavean and the asian power stuffs, we are.
(i bet he's another singaporean, my 2 cents!)

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:19

#21

Deltikon

@Aureate

The perfect price would be if it's cheap enough to not make it a grindfest, but high enough to make the CE used for crafting worth it. And that's kinda delicate, just like the CE prices, which is why I'm asking people's opinions about the price. But eh, if it's like nowadays' crafting price, it should be something redundantly like (taken account of 50% mist tank):
1* - 500
2* - 4000
3* - 10000
4* - 25000
5* - 50000
(heh, funny, it's about the same as the next star recipe's cost)
And well, it's considerably more expensive than what i said before, but it's about the same, if not more or less, of what it takes with CE today.

And I don't really care if people get richer or not to be honest. And again, on many other threads as it said, reducing the FSC income would help fight that stupidity.

Thanks for the feedback.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:21

#22

Zeddy

I like it!

Lots of games have the entirety of non-cosmetic stuff in a game available without paying. Such as, oh, a little known game called Team Fortress 2!

I would like to put in an addition:

Remove mist entirely!
Reviving becomes something only paying players can do. It'll be not unlike arcade machines of ye olde days!

As for trinkets and weapon slots, they'd be available at crown costs / craftable somehow.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:30

#23

Deltikon

No way.

Removing the mist tank used by f2pers would make revivals considered p2w. Unless there's an alternate solution for it, like up to 2 free revivals every dungeon crawling, just like if it was 3 lives (inc. the one you start with). And yeah, that's a fairly good idea too, but it has to be done in a way that it's worth the CE more, but rather not too much, than crafting then with crowns.

Even so, it's better to keep the mist tank... It does have its uses afterall.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:41

#24

Zeddy

That's the point!

Removing the mist tank used by f2pers would make revivals considered p2w.

Well, yeah! Nothing in the game requires reviving. Two free revivals per dungeon crawling sounds very excessive, too. How about this?

-Mist tank has capacity of 20.
-1 mist takes 1 hour to refill.

Now you can revive twice in a day for free, but not the same person during the same run. A group of four friends would be able to completely wipe eight times every day. I want to nerf it to 10 already!

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:47

#25

Luguiru

I may as well do something

We should also take the CE everyone has on their knight, cut it in half, then give that to all non-premium players.

Then we should make it so energy can only be used to buy useless cosmetic stuff so Three Rings goes bankrupt and the game gets shut down.

After the game closes we can get no refunds and all the non-premium and premium players will be equal.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 09:48

#26

Deltikon

Don't be silly

There's more uses for mist, such as crafting aid for the p2ps and for crafting low star equip freely too.

And revives only need to be more expensive (5E for tier 1. 10E for tier 2 and 20E for tier 3).

And I just readed your old post again, and im displeased with the fact you are supporting p2w there.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 10:17

#27

Deltikon

Luguiru, stop being silly.

I'm tryng to benefit the players and make the game more enjoyable for everyone, specially to newcomers, not trying to screw the p2pers. And how would OOO get bankrupt if there would be more people playing the game and some of them actually would be willing to pay money for it?

EDIT: I can tell already that you're just a elitist fool.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 12:25

#28

Niichi

He may be sarcastic, but truth be told I cannot at all fathom how you came up with this. To put it in perspective, you're walking up to Three Rings and telling them to rip out the majority of stuff in the game designed to make them money and replace them with nothing, under the bizarre impression that the very few things remaining would suddenly surge in sales. Very few games can get away with offering the actual gameplay entirely free without grinding and/or restrictions. Ones like Team Fortress 2 are rare exceptions that are popular enough to be able to do it (and even then, you used to have to pay an initial payment for TF2).

You can't just assume that making the majority of content accessible without CE will automatically make everyone go for the few remaining options. For example, I've paid money into this game three times. Twice for an ele pass and once for the OCH. With your suggestions in place I wouldn't have paid for ele passes. Would I have paid that money elsewhere in the game? Probably not. I didn't buy ele passes to mass grind for energy. I got them for the convenience of being able to play any level without worrying if I'm playing an "unprofitable" level or jumping in near the end of a level.

I liked your previous thread because it identified a problem and came up with a fairly reasonable solution. Granted, I didn't support the original idea but I did propose a slightly modified version of it that I felt addressed the key problem (tier/mission clearance for new players) without impacting too much on the profits of the company (limiting the cuts to specific crafting lines). But here it's a case of "make almost everything free, I'm sure Three Rings will be fine".

There are potential ways to help newer f2p get more out of the game while limiting the grinding feeling without gouging out what has to be the biggest sources of income for the game. Those kinds of ideas have been brought up before. Limited time ele passes or more usable mist tanks as rewards. Reduced crafting costs for very specific sets. Further amendments of level payouts to reduce the gap between tier 2 and tier 3 (specifically, that set of levels to do with fire and undead and stuff...). Limit the number of crown offers a player can make for energy at a single time. More crown sinks.

I would actually love to see those things in place and see their effect on f2p and the current energy economy before trying to declare that more drastic measures are required.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 13:05

#29

Deltikon

Maybe I got a bit too ambitious and extreme with this suggestion

But you're implying that people pay CE because they are forced to. And some people just hate that and leave. same thing for the energy limitation, if you don't have a pass, you have to wait for tomorrow or buy CE, which is not really reliable these days...

Also for the real money, that's why I suggested to make the CE cost for stuff cheaper, so it would incentive more people to buy it. Elevator passes do give a extra cash for the developers, I admit, but so can the higher amount of people who would come and enjoy the game, and possibly would pay CE for crafting or other gibberish to compensate for that. Sure my idea needs good polishing, but it is possible to get money without shoving p2w or p2continue2p or even excessive grinding on people's faces on a free mmo. You do have a point about HF2 though.

I know you did liked, but also partially disagreed about my suggestion, but OOO won't really lose money if they cheapen the crafting costs. In fact, it could bring some people back and some other would even spend extra to craft two 5* equipment pieces with just 2 dollars. Because it's a better deal and more worth the money. Not saying that your suggestion is wrong, it could work too.

And yes, there is other solutions, but most of them just are short term solutions. After those passes and tanks are out, it's back to the drawing board. Reducing the gap would help o a longer term though. And yes, limiting the way people put offers on AH would work as well. As for crown sinks it's a bit hard to, since it has to be something pretty attractive to take part of the crowns that go to the market. If all fails, then I guess this could be a last resort then... Just seeing if it could help.

Thanks for the feedback by the way, I appreciate it.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:16

#30

Vossida

Deltikon quit following me

I like Deltikon's idea in the opening post but instead of removing elevator costs, why not make energy recharge faster? I know Deltikon used Facebook games as a bad example but a lot of FB games use an energy system that only takes an hour maybe two to recharge. These FB games have you do plenty of tasks to spend your energy but because it recharges so quickly you can go watch TV for an hour and come back (or lurk around Facebook pretending you got something to do).

Also in order for Deltikon's crafting to work CR weapons and armor must be weaker than their CE versions but good enough so players can progress with them

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 14:41

#31

Deltikon

lol.

It could work, but just changing the recharge rate would inflate the CE-cr market because eventually people will have enough mist more quickly to grind FSC all over again... Still, if the crown-only crafting was implemented, that problem wouldn't really matter, at least for me.

And well, that would be unfair, unless you're mentioning about the UV chance part. If not, it would be considered p2w, since CE crafted weapons would be more powerful than cr ones, leaving the UVs aside.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 00:29

#32

Derpules

Deltikon, you're deluded.

So, you want CE-less crafting and CE-less level running. And you maintain that anyone would bother buying CE under these conditions. Because crafting with CE would be ever so slightly better, or something.

Really?

Think this through.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 01:08

#33

Asukalan

Dont know if someone said it

Dont know if someone said it before but trinket slots for 100CE = free trinket slots for alt users

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 02:14

#34

Psychorazer

Believe me when I say I mean this literally and do not intend offence whatsoever: "What. Is. This."

I follow more what Niichi said. Remember that the reason OOO created SK was to make money. Sure your ideas improve player satisfaction, but at my rough-and-completely-speculative-without-numerical-backing estimate, I'd say OOO profits from this game would drop by at least 80% after this goes through, should it ever happen. Players won't need to buy anything, so players won't.

Although that really doesn't say much, considering players at this stage don't 'need' to buy anything either. However, the restrictions that you intend to remove are what slow down and push people to buy. Removing them would make SK completely F2P, and run pretty much on player charity.

The theoretical 'advantages' CE crafting would have over 'Energy-Free' crafting would be negligible. Nobody would really care, considering the chances would probably be similar to getting said 'advantages' through the other means.

As for the thing about Maplestory; OOO is a small company. Although bought over by SEGA, I highly doubt SEGA is going to bother bailing out OOO's F2P-charity games if said games come to exist. Nexon, however has many ways of getting money, and being it's own company, it can spend that money how it wants, even if that includes making a F2P game like Maplestory.

Although I've never played Maplestory, so I can't really comment on it's workings.

This is mostly just wishful thinking. I mean, what player wouldn't love to have an online MMO where everything is easily accessible and you don't have to spend a cent? However, things like that, in this case anyway, can't really exist any time soon.

Well, not 'can't' so much as 'wouldn't'. There's the chance, but I doubt it will be taken.

Even if this attracts more players, which it definitely would, there is a higher chance that they wouldn't spend enough money to help keep the game afloat long enough. If I had to take a guess, Nexon had enough cash to pump into Maplestory to keep it alive long enough to attract enough paying players to make the game self-sustainable. However, I highly doubt SEGA will feel the same about SK, and as a result, OOO would have to foot the bill, which wouldn't really work out very well.

Sorry, but I don't think this is going to work.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 02:59

#35

Deltikon

...

meh, i knew this idea was too extreme for a small group of developers, just wanted to see what people thought of it... unsurprisingly almost everyone said OOO would go bankrupt...

@Asukalan
That's the point. Otherwise no-one would be able to use heart pendants, and they do make a big difference on lockdown. Weapon slots, not so much, at least for me... Unless the original trinket prices are kept and just keep 1 slot available for the f2ps. Or some other way to prevent those p2w trinkets even more p2w.

@Derpules
That's where the grinding comes in. But it still cannot be too much so it makes it unbearable for f2p. But also not too cheap to make the CE crafting pointless. Yes, I said that I don't like grinding and even made a thread against it, but I only mentioned it at the point of being unbearable.

@Psychorazer
I'm not saying it to make it a babby spoon feeding walk, where everything is free and cheap. I'm just trying to suggest what it could be done to keep the game stable while getting rid of the biggest drawback of the game. And just to let you know, I wasn't being very serious about maplestory being a great MMO, 1st time I played it was too repetitive and it takes forever to level up (maybe not so much now, as far as I heard). Plus, most of the money they get is from kids that buy the accessories on the cash shop.
And people do spend money on a game if they know it's good enough for its worth. Well, maybe not so much these days now...

Still, being capable of crafting with just crowns wouldn't be a bad idea, would reduce a lot of the market's influence on the cost...

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 04:41

#36

Derpules

Ha.

"unsurprisingly almost everyone said OOO would go bankrupt"

That's because it's true. Don't you get it? People only buy CE with real money for two reasons:

1) They need it, or
2) They want to sell it to other players for a good price.

If we didn't need CE, reason 1 would evaporate. Once that happened, reason 2 would also evaporate, because there wouldn't be sufficient demand to keep CE prices high enough to be worth selling at.

It's not enough for CE to be useful. It has to be necessary, or the model simply doesn't work.

I'm actually not sure why I'm bothering to point this out to you, since the chance of your suggestion being implemented is exactly nil. I guess I'm just fascinated by how someone can fail to see what's totally obvious. :O

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 04:54

#37

Sirzerox

I disagree Derpules

@derpules I had never bought ce with real money and i only buy it with cr like everyone else. I am nearly fully 5 star and my history says ive only been playing this for 9 weeks....

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 05:10

#38

Zeddy

@Sirzerox

You may not know it, but you're actually making a case for why the CE system does not need to change. You may not have thrown a single cent at OOO, but somebody still paid for that CE you used, so OOO still made money on you.

What would change with Deltikon's suggestion? You'd get to full 5* a bit faster, probably, but this time OOO didn't make anything from you, you freeloader you.

Honestly, I'd much prefer if SK was just an offline game I could buy for a set price and connect peer-to-peer with my friends. Less lag, no server restarts, no prepubescent kids calling me a faggot. Somehow this worked out so well for Tripwire that Killing Floor's stayed regularly updated for years.

Edit: I suppose that's a pretty unfair comparison, isn't it? Killing Floor has, what, six enemies and is a mod of an already existing FPS-engine where SK has an absurd amount of stuff built from scratch.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 05:09

#39

Softhead

@Zeddy

Like R&C's All For One's online?

I don't know anything about Killing Floor.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 05:37

#40

Deltikon

@Derpules Chances are nill,

@Derpules
Chances are nill, you might be right, but you don't need to be a jerk to tell that. And just to let you know, people buy CE because they are obligated to. If no-one was selling CE right now, you'd obviously see the prices skyrocket, and to make it worse, it would be impossible for people to progress the game. The suggestion about the crafting without the need of CE would "save" the f2pers from such thing. And again, forcing people to buy CE in order to progress makes the game terrible, along with the elevator limitation, no matter how much fun it is.

What I'm saying on the thread too is to make the CE purchase an option to skip grinding, not an obligation for players. And of course, for that to work, you must incentive them to spend their money on free will, like cheaper CE costs OR even a cash shop for costumes/accessories. Believe me, it might work better than you might think. Specially to a community that's more interested on breastplates. :U

@Zeddy
Spiral Knights and Killing Floor are different games, they can't be exactly compared to each other. Still, your idea mite be cool, but not really possible. I'd still pay for a 1-time subscription though, but not at the moment...

@Atrumvindex
Basically l4d, but harder, more varied weapons and perks. Also this: http://youtu.be/ON-7v4qnHP8

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 07:38

#41

Derpules

@Deltikon

"And just to let you know, people buy CE because they are obligated to. If no-one was selling CE right now, you'd obviously see the prices skyrocket, and to make it worse, it would be impossible for people to progress the game."

I know that. That's exactly what keeps people buying CE. It's an essential part of the system.

If no one was selling, that would (practically speaking) mean no one was buying, and that would mean the game would already be dead. As in, we would soon not have a server to play on. At that point, it would hardly matter that progression would be impossible.

"And again, forcing people to buy CE in order to progress makes the game terrible, along with the elevator limitation, no matter how much fun it is."

And your idea would mean we'd have no game at all. Nothx.

"What I'm saying on the thread too is to make the CE purchase an option to skip grinding, not an obligation for players. "

It is already that. You--the individual player--don't need to spend any money on this game if you're willing to grind and just buy CE using cr.

"And of course, for that to work, you must incentive them to spend their money on free will, like cheaper CE costs OR even a cash shop for costumes/accessories."

Or, if those ideas work so well, OOO could introduce them while keeping the current system, and make even more money out of it.

Which is, y'know, kind of their job? And also what allows F2Ps to even play this game.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 08:02

#42

Theopholis

Not only will this never happen

But I actually like the elevator costs. I can play, on average for about 2 hours a day if I'm not rushing through everything. This is a reasonable amount of time. And, If I want to play longer, I can use CE to play. I never had a problem getting up to 5*, personally, and never felt as if my play time was being limited.

In fact, for those of us who have actually lives, the elevator costs are nice. They limit how much time you're spending not doing things you should be.

Now if only they would add something similar to the forums . . .

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 08:32

#43

Deltikon

Being shoved in the butt with limitations a good feature!

Derpules, the whole response of yours implies that there's no alternative ways besides shoving f2pers on the face with grind and time limitations. And if you want to know my opinion about you, you care too much about the company's proft. Nothing wrong with that, but you seem to forget about the players too. I will even go further with this and bet you would accept a horrible idea for the players and still think it's good because it would make profit for the developers.

And if you don't like my idea for that, how about instead of complaining that it won't make profit for company, how about trying to find a better solution that can benefit players, but without considering profit in the 1st place? There ARE alternate solutions for the massive grinding and playtime limits after all. Or you think you're happy with just being able to play a fun game 2 hours a day and then forced to pay?

And you called me deluded for thinking about alternate solutions for a very serious problem with the game, but if you look at theopholis, can you really tell me who's the most deluded?

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 09:34

#44

Derpules

In a nutshell

"Or you think you're happy with just being able to play a fun game 2 hours a day and then forced to pay?"

Um. Yes?

What is wrong with 2h of free game time every day? Assuming you sleep a healthy 7h every day, that's 11% of your waking life you can spend playing SK. is this really not good enough?

And if it isn't, can you really not just spend some of the cr earned in-game to buy CE to play some more? FSC may give the highest profit, but plenty of missions, even in T2, allow you to break even on CE spent. You can already play forever, if you want; you just won't make a fortune doing so.

Also:

"And if you want to know my opinion about you, you care too much about the company's proft. Nothing wrong with that, but you seem to forget about the players too. I will even go further with this and bet you would accept a horrible idea for the players and still think it's good because it would make profit for the developers."

Nope. Your idea wouldn't just cost OOO some profit. It would destroy the game, utterly.

Sure I have other ideas, which you may or may not agree with. But this is your idea thread, not mine. And your idea sucks.

(And since you asked, I don't think Theopholis is deluded at all. He sounds quite reasonable.)

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 09:36

#45

Deltikon

>It's okay to me, so it should be okay for everyone else too!

That's how you answered.

And no it would not... It sounds horrible to you because it would dramatically change the game, but definitely not destroying it...

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 09:40

#46

Derpules

Nope.

My answer to the supposed problem of game time limits is this:

Anyone can play forever already by buying CE with cr. They just won't make huge in-game profit by doing so (except on select missions/levels).

An objective, empirical claim. Do you disagree with it?

Re: destroying the game: I do not mean that the game would cease to be fun for me (although it might). I mean that OOO would literally not be able to pay for the servers any more if it implemented the changes you want. SK would cease to exist.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 09:42

#47

Deltikon

They can, I say.

But not to a midgame player that just wants to progress on the game. The decision on buying more CE so he can play the game would hold him back. So he either chooses to pay to play for longer, or stop so he can get another mist tank and keep getting money for crafting. Or in other words, at the status of this game, would he prefer to either grinds forever and waits for a few days, or to grind for the rest of the eternity but keeps playing the game. Does it sound good to you?

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 09:47

#48

Derpules

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

So long as you have access to T2, you can keep playing forever and not sacrifice progress. Because you're actually breaking even, or making a profit, every time you run a level with CE.

I am addressing, here, only your "limited game-time" complaint. Your "too much grinding" complaint is a totally separate issue.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 10:34

#49

Deltikon

No, this is where you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

"So long as you have access to T2, you can keep playing forever and not sacrifice progress."
Wrong, unless you pay for an elevator pass, which proves my point that it forces players to pay real money. You either buy more energy and lose your money-made progress, or you stop playing because you are out of energy but don't want to spend crowns on a new pack of CE or real money.

And I might have gone off-topic, but I'm still right about what I said now. And my suggestion would allow to both extend the playtime a person can do everyday, and still be able to do the same money as always.

"Re: destroying the game: I do not mean that the game would cease to be fun for me (although it might). I mean that OOO would literally not be able to pay for the servers any more if it implemented the changes you want. SK would cease to exist."
Never implied that you said it would make it less fun. And I was just trying to see if we could discuss about alternative ways of OOO/sega of getting money without having to shove us with limits and grinding, without also making it more p2w than it already is. I thought these forums are for that, not to just put a wall of text about an idea more of less complicated and wait for people cutting other people's wrists for being so edgy and tell that their ideas are bad because it would just make 3rongs lose proft, without even saying any improvements for the idea.

I suggested this thread, it's true that I have to deal with criticism, and that my ideas are more or less bad, but at least I'm actually trying to help improve the game big time and not just with itsy-bitsy lil' thingies that little matter to the game, but I was expecting to see some other opinions on how to improve it, not just simply OMG 3RONGS WILL GO BANKRUPT IF THIS HAPPENS! BREAST PLATES ARE FAR BETTER IDEA BECAUSE I WANNA BE A GRIL AND I'D GIVE MY MONEY TO THEM FOR A SEMI P2P GRINDFEST GAEM. HUH YOUR IDEA IS TOO SHORT, YOU WANT US TO HELP DEVELOP IT TOO? TOO BAD, UR IDEA IS TERRIBLE AND I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS RELATED TO YOUR THREAD BUT YOUR THREAD IS GARBAGE SO I CAN CALL YOU GARBAGE TOO AND NOT EVEN BOTHER TO TELL HOW TO IMPROVE IT!! That's what's wrong with this community. You don't want to focus on the real problems such as stupidly high crafting costs or even about the game whacking us with the loloutofenergy stupidity. Or even worse, you people see an idea, and instead of helping OPs to develope its potential, more or less rubbish, but still with true potential, you just keep it for yourselves and bash them. You simply don't care at all. And even if you do, I honestly don't see many people trying to help making major improvements asides of a bunch of new toys that they STILL take 5ever to get if they ever get on the game.

And now that I'm done with my rant, I might consider graveyard this because no-one simply cares about it besides the new players.

I hope you step on legos with your bare foot.

Sun, 08/26/2012 - 11:05

#50

Derpules

Ha.

"Wrong, unless you pay for an elevator pass, which proves my point that it forces players to pay real money. You either buy more energy and lose your money-made progress, or you stop playing because you are out of energy but don't want to spend crowns on a new pack of CE or real money."

No. Why do you say "buy more energy and lose your money-made progress", as if you lost cr doing so? If you buy 100 CE with crowns, and use that 100 CE to to run RJP (either the whole thing, or first two levels only) until your mist is gone, you end up making enough cr to buy another batch of 100 CE, with quite a bit left over. You make progress, wealth-wise, buying CE and using it on RJP. You do not lose progress.

Seriously. Do you not know this?

The same is true of some other T2 missions, and all the T3 missions (AFAIK).

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