Spiral Knights - Do you guys ever wonder what the devs were thinking when they made the armor sets?

Do you guys ever wonder what the devs were thinking when they made the armor sets?

14 respuestas [Último envío]

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 10:40

Fehzor

So like, most of the armors are decent in some way, but some are just objectively, or almost objectively, worse than others in every way.

Ok, Valkyrie. It has:
-Low normal/shadow resistance
-Fiend med bonus
-Negative fire resistance
-Poison/Curse resistance

Poison isn't such a big deal, so why wouldn't I just use the new kat hat, which has the same defenses as valkyrie? Or even just snarbolax or dread skelly? How would owning this item benefit me? It lacks ice resistance, making kat hats even better for that. Poisonous fiends are relatively rare as well.

Skelly/jelly/grey feather. Why do they have the same defenses as other random items, but no boost? Status resistance is valuable, but not worth giving up valuable bonuses over.
Skelly < Kat hats, or snarbolax if you'd rather have status resistances.
Jelly < Mercurial
Grey feather about equals arcane salamander. I guess you could want this for that extra bit of elemental, but why? Mixed status stratums are relatively rare, so is it really worth worrying about that little bit of resistance?

Then there is Fallen- She gives us:
-Low normal/shadow defense
-Negative fiend?
-Asi low
-Poison + fire resistance
-Negative curse resistance

So you can fight what with this? Undead? Compare to deadshot-
-Good normal/slightly lower shadow defense
-Undead med
-Handgun ASI low
-Curse resistance

This is indefinitely better for graveyards, and better for most firey levels too, provided there are undead on them. Sword ASI is a loss, but isn't so much compared to the undead bonus. Or you can compare it to using a piece of vog and a piece of justifier/nameless, making fallen worthless on levels that don't house mostly undead.

So... where would I even want to use these items? Why are they in the game? These questions are partially posed towards the devs, if they are feeling kind, and partially posed towards Bopp, whom always yells at me when I make threads here.

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 10:49

Spicegirls

Basically their system for armor balance during the big armor balance patch a while back, every set should have a net total of 2 "boosts". Each max status counts as a "boost" and every Medium bonus is another "boost".

They dont care if the status are useful just that they closely match this system.

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 10:59

Fehzor

But how is that an excuse to not actually balance the armors?

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 11:12

Bopp

haha

I hope that I don't really yell at you, Fehzor. But I do like to play devil's advocate. I basically agree with your point, but keep in mind that some aspects of the game have changed since launch, while others have not, and this itself accounts for some of the inbalance. For example:

* Deadshot used to offer undead+2, but no gun ASI. ASI is a recent addition.

* Valkyrie and Dread Skelly had fire weakness, but Fallen didn't. A shadow armor that won't make you burn to death? This made some sense in FSC, despite the fiend penalty. The Dread Skelly you're looking at is actually buffed from what it used to be.

* People have increasingly (I sense) been gravitating toward the highly offensive armor pieces, such as new Chaos, Black Kat Cowl, Mad Bomber, Swiftstrike Buckler. I can think of three reasons. First, so many people have all aspects of PvE memorized, so that they just don't need much defense. Second, they want to appear to be so good that they don't need much defense. Third, because of Punch, and the buffs to Punch, it is much easier to get strong status UVs on these offensive armors, that overcome their status weaknesses. In the old days, it was much harder to get UVs. In fact, the conspiracy theorist in me sees these "glass cannon" sets as another ploy by Three Rings to get us spending lots of money on Punch.

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 12:31

Fehzor

Its been like a year since deadshot got a boost though.. why was fallen not considered when they gave it this boost?

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 12:44

Spicegirls

It is "balanced" in their books.

Deadshot got the boost because gunslingers were complaining that it was not a real gunners set.

You also have to remember you used to only have 1 UV so you couldn't cover all of the deadly statuses in one set.

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 13:02

Fehzor

However, the sets are as of right now, unbalanced. I don't care if they were balanced 6 months ago, or if the devs intended something else, whats in the game is in the game. Its unfair to say that they were somehow more balanced before X happened. I'm just wanting to know why these things are even out there in their current state, and what their purpose is. Likewise, if the devs books say that they are balanced when they clearly aren't, why haven't the devs changed their books?

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 13:51

Krakob

Wait...

THE DEVS WERE THINKING?

Jue, 02/14/2013 - 15:49

Bopp

well, agree

Fehzor, I agree that the sets are currently out of balance. In giving the "historical view" above, I was arguing that they haven't kept up with the changes necessitated by new rules, new features, and new promotions. These are necessary, to give players new content and to adjust other aspects of the game. But they keep wrecking the equipment balance, which wasn't great to begin with. I'm not excusing or justifying it. I'm just trying to understand why it has happened.

Vie, 02/15/2013 - 11:42

Atacii

...

Too many choices can be off-putting for players, especially newer ones. So it is common for games to offer a few good choices among many bad ones. The pleasure of making the correct decision without effort or anxiety.

I would, of course, prefer an honest attempt at balance.

Oh well.

Vie, 02/15/2013 - 20:10

#10

Fehzor

Oh! And here is what I meant by yelling at me:

* Deadshot used to offer undead+2, but no gun ASI. ASI is a recent addition.

Like... I was there for all of that. I saw those get buffed and +1'd them all the time... I used and tested them and then you go and try to inform me of them as changes? As if I just didn't know?

Vie, 02/15/2013 - 20:24

#11

Bopp

no offense intended

Why are you so upset? I'm not trying to insult you. I don't know when you joined. Take it easy.

Sáb, 02/16/2013 - 15:21

#12

Espeonage

They really cannot be compared.

The items in this game are from 2 different eras, basically. Given that, the previous is just horrendously outdated at this point, and only a few items were brought up to keep pace. Heck, in the old timeframe status-themed levels didn't even exist yet, nor Full sets of status monsters, so it was just "you see me or you don't".

Just look at the Cutter (or Spur or Troika) compared to the other swords - they are terribly outpaced by weapons released after their time. The Spur and Troika were updated, but they still fall flat, much like Dread Skelly and etc. in the armor change update. In fact, it's silly that Dread Skelly-vs-Snarbolax and Mad Bomber-vs-Chaos are pretty much in the same boat.
___
On an entirely different but related point:
It's been quite established that aesthetic can essentially be considered a balancing factor in SK. Due to that aspect, it could be gone to just say that it applies to the old items (which is simply unfortunate, but makes it easier to disregard along the way.)

Dom, 03/03/2013 - 06:23

#13

Zeddy

Valkyrie is just full of derp. Let's take Heavenly Iron.
7 Normal
6 Shadow
-4 Shock
+4 Curse
+1 Sword damage
+1 Fiend damage

Compare to Snarbolax.
7 Normal
6 Shadow
+3 Poison
+3 Freeze
+2 Sword damage

These armours were released at the same time. One gives a pure medium bonus, which I think most people agree is more useful than having your bonuses split all over the place, and two positive resists, adding up to +6 resistance. The other one gives a low family bonus and a low sword bonus, adding up to medium only when using swords on fiends. While this is interesting, it's definitely not as useful as +2 fiends and +2 swords alone would be. It should certainly not be punished with a -4 shock, that's just silly.

Either give it +3 shock and +3 curse, +2 fiend damage, or a second resistance like the other valkyries have. Maybe fire? Maybe make the shock positive and give it negative poison?

Lun, 05/13/2013 - 05:06

#14

Gamer-Troopa

Come to think of it...

Regarding the title of this thread, this reminds me of a time I was discussing about the Spiral Plate series, with a friend of mine.

As far as I could remember, normal damage was more common in the earlier times of Spiral Knights. Therefore, the devs created the Spiral Plate sets, for the sole purpose of mitigating, or 'tanking' normal damages. Nowadays, it was overlooked by many, due to the equipments that SK players more commonly use today, mostly for their more general effective-ness, or offensive capabilities, regarding Bopp's opinion on people going for the more offensive equipments.

Also, if you think about it, the devs rarely ever made changes to the Spiral Plate sets, compared to the other armor sets. The reason is that the devs simply leave the Spiral Plate series as it is; a series of highly defensive armors with attack speed penalties, as its trademark ability.

Just wanted to share my personal opinions; I allow constructive criticisms.

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Do you guys ever wonder what the devs were thinking when they made the armor sets?