Spiral Knights - One more thread on how to fix the Forge

One more thread on how to fix the Forge

15 respuestas [Último envío]

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 15:39

Likal

First off, let me get some bile out of the way. Whoever's in charge? I need you to track down the guy who thought it was a good idea to implement a random chance that your progress would just fail. Fire him. No no, I don't want to hear it. FIRE HIM. "What do you mean you lost your progress, you get to keep your heat on a failed forge!" I could heat this weapon five times over in the time it takes me to re-farm the crystals for even the lowest-rank (AKA: Guaranteed to fail) level of forging. Seriously, you took something that used to be free and painless and made it actively stressful. I understand that, with elevators now free, you need some kind of gating mechanism to keep people from advancing too quickly. Guess what, you already have that! It's called CRAFTING. You either let people farm the orbs (that system has some issues too, but you got the drop rate fairly reasonable on the first try, congratulations on that), or you let them PAY YOU MONEY. I fail to see how this was a bad system. I seriously want to inflict physical harm upon the person who came up with this piece of dreck, but that won't solve anything, that won't help anything. Removing him from the design process will. So fire him.

Moving on.

Despite how provably bad the forge system is at the moment, you're not going to take it out. No matter how much even the most reasonable and level-headed players beg you, it's here to stay. I don't like that, but I accept it. You put time, effort, and microtransactions into it. So instead we fix it.

First off, we standardize the crystal cost. I don't know what formula you're using, but it's overdesigned and incomprehensible. I've even heard reports of the amount changing for the very same weapon. It needs to be some flat number, times the new level of the weapon, times the forging rank. Let's have an example, and we'll use two. I have a four-star weapon that I want to forge to level 6, and I don't want to gamble - because gambling is bad - so I use the third forge rank. 36 crystals. Easy math.

Next, the interface is bad. Sometimes it'll let me forge without the full number of crystals at reduced odds, sometimes it won't, and in either case I can't look at what the requested number is (and I can't just guess; as previously mentioned, the current math is indecipherable). There needs to be some way to view the recommended/required number of crystals at each tier, but otherwise I don't have good suggestions on how to fix it. The menu is really overblown with a lot of wasted space, but I don't really have any good suggestions for making it look better. Sorry, I dilettante in a lot of things, but graphics design isn't one of them.

Okay, best/worst for last. This is kind of an overhaul, but I think the forge needs one (that, or a drastic reduction of crystal cost). The baseline forging is 100%, but with no bonuses. You can add chances for bonuses, but that decreases the odd of a successful forging. But to balance that, you can pay in more crystals to pump the odds back up. This way, any gambling is opt-in, rather than opt-out-at-ridiculous-cost. This version would probably require higher baseline costs than they are now, but for the same price I'd rather have a guaranteed level up with no bonuses than some maybe bonuses with 1/3 odds of just losing the crystals I farmed for NOTHING.

In review: fire that guy, easily-understood costs, de-bloat the interface, remove gambling. The rest of the update was cool, but this part is terrible.

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 15:51

Demonicsothe

Since we're using anecdotes

Since we're using anecdotes as evidence, I successfully forged twice at 20%. Thus, I put forward the notion that this entire suggestion is in the wrong due to the fact that it has no substance, and is simply based on op's dislike of the forging system.

Assuming you are talking about the crystal cost increasing for the same weapon as it levels up, that makes sense. It takes more and more effort to level up, a common concept in any mmorpg.

I haven't had any of the interface problems you listed.

Tl;dr Another unhappy thread about forging because the focus changed from farming ce to farming fire crystals.

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 16:04

Goldenmariopower

They should just remove the forge system

the new forge system is so unbelievably terrible if they don't remove it soon or seriously fix it there going to lose like half there players.

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 16:11

Kripur

And yet, after more than a

And yet, after more than a week, people are still playing this game, and more are coming back (such as myself) to try it out again since, you know, you don't need to pay for elevators now.

To wit, I'm a solid 2* Elite solo player and always pay max fire crystals for each forge, without paying money to OOO. I don't know if that will change down the road, but I will say love the double-levels and +25% heat gains I tend to get at the moment.

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 17:29

Likal

Re: Demonicsothe

"Assuming you are talking about the crystal cost increasing for the same weapon as it levels up, that makes sense. It takes more and more effort to level up, a common concept in any mmorpg. "

No, I mean they tried to level up, failed, and the cost was different the next time they tried.

And yes, of course I'm unhappy with it. I wouldn't post a topic on how to fix it if I were liked it. So thank you captain obvious.

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 18:28

Rogue-Wolf

...

Your initial comment is pretty bad. The crafting system was altered to make it easier to craft. The orb drop rate has little effect on the prevention of fast progression. You can pay money to get the orbs, but the Forge still slows down your progession. It's working as intended; there's nothing wrong with it.

I actually prefer the "pay more, higher chance of success + bonuses" model. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to use the minimum cost and have no chance of getting any bonus.

Think of it this way, more grinding = more crowns, more fire crystals, more orbs, increased likelihood of leveling, more sparks of life, possibility of leveling bonuses. Doing one, benefits the other.

Regardless, decide on your own math before replacing a system. Do I have to add bonuses prior to adding the one I want (25% heat, before double level up, before forge box). How much does the price increase by (if 100% + all bonuses ends up being more expensive, doesn't that make your system even worse?)? Your system sounds nice, but go into a little bit more detail. Do remember the Forge slows progression. Making the Forge easy to bypass defeats the purpose.

As for the crystal cost, I've never come across the issue you mentioned. I would assume there is easy math behind the current system (possibly a level bug? increase level cost, but not actual level?).

Interface has issues, but nothing overly major.

Vie, 08/09/2013 - 20:03

Likal

...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the new crafting system. I have a couple issues with it (like the pile of 1* orbs I will ~never~ use, or how they didn't change their CE costs to account for the lack of Mist energy), but by and large they got the drop rate just about right on the first try.

While I understand that the forge is a gating mechanism meant to slow our progress, it's just so heavy-handed and unfriendly to the players. And I guess part of it is that I'm insulted by the "You don't lose progress on a failed forging" line, when the heat that you keep is trivial compared to the crystals that you lose. They might as well do away with heat. (Can't share it with party members anyway.)

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 05:33

Remove-The-Forge

FINALLY

FINALLY, SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE TRUE PROBLEM WITH THE MONSTROUS ATROCITY FROM HELL THAT IS THE FORGE!!!!!!!!!!11

I came back 3 days ago after 2 years of inactivity. Everything you have said thus far is my EXACT feeling for what is wrong with it.

...Although I have to take points away due to the fact you seem to come up the silly idea of losing all gained heat whenever you fail. This not happening insults you and the fact you instantly come up with this insults me. The system is bad enough as it is, don't give the developers ideas.

I also have to take away points because you said you liked it and said it was cool. Yes, the looks of it and the intentions behind it are rather nice, but in the long run, it's always good to scrap the whole thing and start over with a new one. AND YES I AM BIASED AGAINST THE FORGE, IT'S A HORRIBLE IDEA.

But overrall, your posts get a 63/104 nonetheless.

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 05:41

Thunder-The-Bright

re-re-re-stating idea again. couldn't you please follow only one topic?
every [insert amount here] of heat should rise the success chance of 1%. rewards would not be affected. maybe put a cap of 75% on the first. that will slow down progression.
also, lower the prices of crystal in the depot so someone actually buys them. everybody seeing the 700 ce price said "screw that, I'm up for an arcade run" which makes useless the fact they are there.

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 09:49

Kripur

Stuff

@Thunder-The-Bright:

I already answered your idea here, but I'll make it a bit clearer this time: Hunting down or buying Fire Crystals for success rates is what OOO wants at the moment. You're not giving anything to substitute that which already is a substitute from the previous F2P system.

I'd also like to ask that you try to help write ideas tailored to other peoples' threads rather than solely advertising your own, or at least keep it to one topic and keep bumping your own topic if you really want. Please keep it to one topic, as you say yourself.

Edit due to later post: I don't intend to argue subjectively whether your idea is the best or not, as I have not played long enough to really know the ins-and-outs of the game to say one way or the other. In fact, I'm not even suggesting that one idea is better than another. The thing is that you're not giving any criticism at all to this OP other than, simply saying, "my idea is better", which is far from constructive. I'll leave it to them whether they feel it is rude, condescending, or offensive.

I will say this however, objectively: It is obvious that OOO wants an input-output system from the fire crystals, but simply attaching success rate to heat instead isn't much of an idea on that end because it'll either become a surely guarenteed chance (in which OOO loses) or a never-guaranteed chance (in which the players lose). Fortunately for us, if enough people don't like the system, OOO will either change it themselves or lose players.

@Likal

As for the actual topic at hand, it seems you tend to be a low-crystal forger while I tend to be a max-crystal forger. The difference in experience is about as bad as I feared the idea of trying and confirms my intuition, so I'm kind of glad I'm not taking those chances to gamble the system as you are. Unfortunately this tells me that max-crystal forging is rather too good a choice to make, offering very little to low-crystal forging aside from a lot of annoyance and time lost.

While I cannot help with a direct solution or suggestion on the game design, there are ways to deal with it. For example, right now the Sapphire Falcon Gate is currently an extremely helpful source of Warm Fire Crystals (2*) until the gate's strata gets reset. It's easy to run from Depth 1 to Depth 5 in about 15 minutes (Depths 3 and 5 have Arenas) if you don't want to Heat things along the way, running in either Mission-given Cobalt Set or with a made Wolver Set, both of which are 2* as well. Otherwise it takes about half an hour or less in heating a bunch of 1* or 2* gear along the way. I'm sure there are other opportunities elsewhere for the different tiers of Fire Crystals out there.

Edit @Cirnothebaka:
Cirno, you're voicing your opinions on the topics and giving critique, so even with your bias I don't think you're that much of a problem. xD Have fun!

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 09:14

#10

Remove-The-Forge

Oh, another forge-related thread? Must make my opinion known. *packs briefcase*

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 09:26

#11

Thunder-The-Bright

kripur, I think my idea is the best. for now. anyway

Hunting down or buying Fire Crystals for success rates is what OOO wants at the moment.

I'm giving them a reason to to that even if they have enough crystals for the min or the mid tier. right now the price is too high, and nobody is paying it. instead of lowering the price, you get higher chance, but you have to grind more. the overall effect is the same.

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 12:57

#12

Likal

stuff

Re: Kripur
I'm actually a medium-level forger, because I'm impatient. Which is probably a worse choice for my temper, because it makes the losses rarer (in theory, but Theory is a wondrous place where magical things happen. I'd sure love to live in Theory.), but more extreme. And it's high-level forging that's got me raging; I've got a small pile of 4* and 5*mitems just sitting there that would either take a week of casual play or a couple unfun days to grind up the crystals for just one guaranteed forge.

And while I realize that their numbers are tuned so that, on average, consistently using the same tier of forging will give the same advancement rate as any other. But there's a difference between math-on-paper and real life. There are going to be cases where people are lucky and the forge is trivial (which is a Fail because it's not slowing them down), and cases where people are unlucky and the forge is a solid wall (which is a Fail because they can't advance at all). This wouldn't be problematic if there were varying levels of success, but right now it's a pass-or-fail system, and I'm not a fan of flipping coins to see if my effort ~did~ anything. When a failed forging makes me so mad that I need to stop playing, that's pretty much the definition of a bad system. (Didn't help that I had just gotten done fighting Fiends, who are MASSIVELY broken, but that's a rant for another topic.)

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 13:09

#13

Remove-The-Forge

This thread is so correct, It

This thread is so correct, It makes Obama look like McCain.

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 13:30

#14

Cyderiax

Hm...

Likal, I think you should stick with the only the maximal success. I really don't see why people are so impatient to level up their weapons. Once you level them up just a bit, their power is already quite decent. You can then just take your time for when the weapons get to higher levels. I know it gets annoying for crafting 5* equipment, but again, why the rush? The 4* counterparts are pretty decent, and levelling them only annoying once it gets to higher levels. I use to want to rush level my equipment too until I realize it was pointless to rush level the equipment. I leveled my Faust that I got after the update from 1 to 10 without trying too hard and have yet to get my hands on a Gran Faust recipe (in fact, I have an excess amount of shining fire crystals right now that I racked up from spamming treasure vaults in arcade =P). In my opinion, you should really just stick with 100% forge success. Not only does it prevent failforgeraging, but it yields the chance of a forge box (and usually what's contained inside those things are insane; I got 10 sparks of life or so, around 30 of many fire crystals each, an elite alchemy orb and a 3 UV ticket from a radiant forge box). The gambling option is really there as an extra option in my opinion. While I do agree that there are some flaws in the system, but I won't say that it's outright horrible right now.

Although I might be just a bit spoiled from that single forge box that I got. Ever since I got it, I've been trying to get another one. =P

Sáb, 08/10/2013 - 13:39

#15

Likal

Re: Cyderiax

While I agree I should probably stick to the third forge tier, if that is the only reasonable option then the other two options, by definition, are unreasonable and need to be fixed.

(Side-note, I find it amusing that Treasure Vault is now preferable over Graveyard because of Fire Crystals and Alchemy Orbs. Wonder if it was intended.)

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One more thread on how to fix the Forge