Spiral Knights - If you don't take your own words seriously, we won't either

If you don't take your own words seriously, we won't either

47 replies [Last post]

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 08:51

Zeddy

"Regarding the weapons, they are not identical in function to any weapon currently in the game, no."

Is a really dishonest statement. It's true, but that doesn't stop it from being misleading. Here's what you should've said:

"Regarding the new weapons, they're exact duplicates of already existing weapons, but with less damage and a chance for poison."

See how that one doesn't build up false expectations, which leads to those expecations being broken and everyone's respect for you lessened below what they previously were? How are we supposed to get hyped about anything you say when we know we have to everything you say with a salt shaker?

For all we know:

"Two dozen new handguns"

could mean

"24 proto guns with different combinations of damage bonuses versus families"

I don't know why you think misleading statements exeggarating your announcements is a good idea, but it's not, Nick. It provides very short-term hype at the expense of your long-term reputation.

I don't actually mind that the new weapons are reskins with a status. That's fine. They're valid weapons. What I do mind is being lied to.

Actually, it's not being lied to. I am able to see through these lies at this point. What I do mind is the implication behind the lie being said: that is, the expectation that I will fall for it. That is to say, the expecation that I am an idiot.

Please don't treat us like idiots, Nick. Nobody likes being treated like idiots. Not even actual idiots.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:00

Battlegrinder

@Zeddy

I see your point, and to abductions extent I agree with you, but given how virulent the hatred for reskins is in some segments of this community, I can see why OOO would bend over backward to not use that phrase. Honesty, I don't mind the new weapons being what they are (aside from leaving me conflicted about whether or not I should make a 5* version of the none status weapons the new ones branch off of),

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:06

Thimol

-----

That is to say, the expecation that I am an idiot.

wow

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:27

Wolfe-Knight

Wolfe-knight applauds

I can see the point in not using the word reskins but the way Nick worded it it almost seemed like we would get a whole new class of weapons. Technically they function the same as their predecessors but have a status and different visual effects, and this is where im sad. Having something shiny that is just like items we already have will not tide us over for long.

The real only new items (not reskins) we have gotten have been the kat hats, and those are event exclusive. I want a sword that is as fun to use as catalyzers, a bomb that has no charge and acts like a shrapnel grenade, I just want something different. Any new item with fun mechanics will keep people around longer, having a new shiny reskin will not.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:30

Zeddy

@Battlegrinder

What gets me is that this particular truth doesn't even need embellishment.

Google up, oh... I dunno... Poison Brandish?

Or poison Vortex.

These are weapons people have asked for. We wanted these. I really like my poison vortex, even though it kind of obsoletes Graviton. Nick's statement could look like this:

"Regarding the weapons, they're much-requested poison variations of popular weapon lines. All of them feature spooky aesthetical effects that make the weapons feel quite unique!"

See that? All the enthusiasm, none of the lying.

The lying shows more than a lack of respect for their customers. It also shows that Nick is ashamed of their work. He must think it inadequate, like it's not actually good enough for release, and therefore he must hide its true nature.

Either way, nothing good comes from it.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:36

Thimol

-----

The lying shows more than a lack of respect for their customers. It also shows that Nick is ashamed of their work. He must think it inadequate, like it's not actually good enough for release, and therefore he must hide its true nature.

ok this I can agree with

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:37

Feyi-Feyi

I could write a lot of fancy words but you did it for me.

+1.

Changing announcements, screwing up the 1 billionth rebalance, misleading info.
What happened OOO?

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:37

Momofuku

so i heard you gunners like specialized damage...

Introducing the new Gunslinger Gear! We've heard your suggestions and we hope you like the new arsenal of gear at your disposal.

Virulisk Chapeau / Virulisk Mantle: Damage Bonus vs Slime: Medium, Gun ASI Low
Goldensun Stetson / Goldensun Slicker: Damage Bonus vs Fiend: Medium, Gun ASI Low
Dragon Poacher Hat / Dragon Poacher Poncho: Damage Bonus vs Beast: Medium, Gun ASI Low
Darkfang Chapeau / Darkfang Mantle: Damage Bonus vs Gremlin: Medium, Gun ASI Low
Mechadrone Helmet / Mechadrone Mail: Damage Bonus vs Construct: Medium, Gun ASI Low

Ten brand new 5* gear with no identical function to existing gunslinger armor!

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:37

Writhes

I kinda agree. Maybe "function" wasn't the best choice in words considering they "function" exactly like the other weapon in their alchemy family. Maybe he didn't realize exactly what thought process this would provoke when people read his statement or actually is exaggerating... who knows...

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 09:43

Battlegrinder

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.

I think we should keep this in mind, since with the ongoing radiant fiasco and now this, the communities paranoia seems to have been cranked up by several orders of magnitude.

@Zeddy
True, they could have said that, but I think that was a little too close to the dreaded R-word for them to risk using (at least in there minds).

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 10:17

#10

Heavy-Dragon

Give credit and criticism where they're due.

"Regarding the weapons, they are not identical in function to any weapon currently in the game, no."

Dont subject this to a euphemism, Zeddy. It -is- a lie. a blatant one.

if he had said:

"Regarding the weapons, they are not identical to any weapon currently in the game, no."

Then it would have been misleading as you said.

These weapons function like the alternates of the weapons used to create them. The aesthetics may be different, but functionally they ARE identical.

However.

Look at the heart and soul they poured into the lore. The weapon designs and flavor text are amazing. even the materials have an eerie tone I like.

I don't care about the reskin, Nick. You don't have to try to pass it off as a completely new weapon. Unless I am wrong.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 10:20

#11

Capt-Chopper

>:C

I completely expected something like this from them, I would be utterly surprised if they were actual new and unique weapons.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 10:20

#12

Lanieu

I've asked for a poison

I've asked for a poison Brandish many times.

I have no problems with the sword (don't have it yet; just assuming)

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 10:32

#13

Windsickle

Regarding False Advertising

Suppose you were to tell some friends that you were going to give a great gift to them, the likes of which they'd never seen before. Do you think they would be hurt more if you later explained that you couldn't give them that great gift (due to undesirable circumstances perhaps), or if you continued to excite them but then gave them a box full of random junk?

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 10:31

#14

Windsickle

It's not the action that I

It's not the action that I mind but the deception.

In either case, it's not the initial action that one would mind so much. I'm sure some of our friends would love to explore and play with a box of random junk. I'm all for spooky poison variants. I really don't even mind "reskins." Rather, I do find misleading and deceptive wording in poor taste.

-Windsickle

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 12:58

#15

Aphrodite

Community Manager

There is no deception here.

There is no deception here. What Nick said is correct. These are new weapons. A reskin is something that we have done in the past. It doesn't change the mechanics of the item, only the appearance. See The Bitter End shield from the Dangerous Prize Box or the Scissor Blades as examples of reskins.

The Obsidian weapons are expansions of existing weapon lines. They share characteristics with others in that line, but are unique weapons in the game.

Also, please refrain from personal attacks, as that is not allowed under the Forum Rules.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:07

#16

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Interesting, but true.

I was very hyped until I saw that we needed 4* items to make these items. Then I sorta was like "Meh they're just reskins."

I haven't seen any in use but they're bound to look awesome!

EDIT: GM sniped me! xD

Well, if that's the reasoning, I see. But still, at first I was thinking entirely new stuff. So, no, not entirely 'new' new, but still unique.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:06

#17

Daili

A round of applause for Aphrodite!
(Not being sarcastic)

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:08

#18

Khamsin

Aphrodite is right. They're not really reskins. They're new weapons. They're not like, y'know, new types of weapon, but they are new weapons.

Still, I speak for many players when I say that we do want new types of weapons. Rocket hammer and DR were well received because they had all new mechanics that were fun and interesting. These new weapons and possibly the gunner patch don't introduce very many new playstyles to the game which is what a lot of players are looking for now.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:11

#19

Fallconn

The Obsidian weapons are expansions of existing weapon lines. They share characteristics with others in that line, but are unique weapons in the game.

That still doesn't make sense, the Obsidian sword still functions like a brandish. Just has different characteristics. It still functions the same way. I don't get how this weapon functions different even though it still does the same thing an Acheron does, except it deals poison?

So basically it does function the same way.....Just tell it how it is, Please. Don't beat around the bush, That just makes us feel less important >:[

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:17

#20

Zeddy

I have questions.

Would you say Deadly Shard Bomb is not identical in function to any other weapon in the game? Is it different in function from Deadly Crystal Bomb?

Is it also different in function from Heavy Shard Bomb?

If I roll my Deadly Shard Bomb at Punch and get gremlin low on it, have I now created an entirely new weapon, different in function from a basic Deadly Shard Bomb?

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:20

#21

Khamsin

@Fallconn

I don't get how this weapon functions different even though it still does the same thing an Acheron does, except it deals poison?

Well, the "except" part makes it different. Not much different, but still different.

I mean, this is an extreme example, but you wouldn't call a shivermist and a venom veiler the same thing, even though they're the same type of weapon with a different status.

@Zeddy

If I roll my Deadly Shard Bomb at Punch and get gremlin low on it, have I now created an entirely new weapon, different in function from a basic Deadly Shard Bomb?

This is an interesting argument, but I mean, the situations you would use them aren't radically altered. If 000 gave us a new hunting blade but it had a gremlin damage bonus instead of beast damage bonus, I would probably be pretty annoyed, but the new brandish has different situational uses that make it worthwhile to acquire.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:22

#22

Bitsbee

"That still doesn't make sense, the Obsidian sword still functions like a brandish."

Because it branches from the Brandish.

If you're talking about the Charge Attack being too similar, then what do you propose it should be like?

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:25

#23

Khamsin

@Bitsbee

I think the expectation was that it would be something completely different, like the rocket hammer, which has a combo that is radically different from the other heavy swords.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:29

#24

Bitsbee

I wouldn't say adding another slam from the Charge Attack as 'radically,' but the combo was sure different.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:30

#25

Khamsin

@Bitsbee

The dash move completely changes how the weapon is used, IMO.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:32

#26

Zipb

Someone please defines

Someone please defines "functionally identical".

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:38

#27

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Zeddy

Contact support directly. You're more likely to get an answer.

I'm curious to know what "functionally identical" means as well.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:46

#28

Heavy-Dragon

functional /func·tion·al/

functional /func·tion·al/ (funk´shun-al)
1. pertaining to a function.
2. affecting the function but not the structure.

2. affecting the function but not the structure.

i·den·ti·cal (-dnt-kl)
adj.
1. Exactly equal and alike.
2. Of or relating to a twin or twins developed from the same fertilized ovum and having the same genetic makeup and closely similar appearance; monozygotic.

1. Exactly equal and alike.

A functionally identical weapon is thus a weapon that may be structurally different but is identical to another weapon in terms of usage or "function".

In this case, function can be taken to mean several things, such as attack animations, charge attacks, and statistical damage.

The latter case is the case apparently being used to say they are NOT functionally identical, but the two former cases make that statement untrue.

swinging an obsidian sword is like swinging an acheron,

+ poison if you want to think of stats as the only determining factor of an item, but that really isn't the case.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:50

#29

Yvanblo

this statement was all to obvious to me...

As soon as I read "not identical in function", I knew that we were basically getting a reskin. Much like Nick's puns for the gunner update notes, this stood out to me as a spoiler of sorts. I figured that the "new" stuff was not new, but simply "not identical".

Given Nick's statement, what Zeddy says is exactly correct, a punched bomb is not, in fact, identical in function, to the bomb that was punched.

I have to agree with Zeddy on this one. OOO should be a little more specific, and try to instill trust in the community. Even after reading what Aphodite said, it still feels like a half-truth... and a half-truth is still a lie. Let's face it, if you reskinned a blaster, and made the shot travel .5 squares farther, or slightly faster, it would fit the description of what Nick said.

I'm just glad I have put off upgrading my level 10 Blackhawk... Too bad I have both Acheron and Graviton already... sigh. I have been hunting Basil for a Sentenza recipe for the past couple weeks... glad I didn't get one!!!!!!

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 13:54

#30

Reto-Da-Liz

+1 for Zeddy.

OOO talking total BS like they've always done.

/clap

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 14:37

#31

Sirius-Voltbreaker

Aphrodite, there you are wrong.

When I looked at the description, I thought new weaponas. Even if your right, nick should stop saying things in complicated hard to understand ways.
You should listen to what we say properly, instead of ignoring us, and not caring.
You guys need help. You do. Stop being so proud of yourselves and accept the ugly truth
I may be detesting a GM, but I don't care. I fight for what's right. Even when "what's right" is unclear.
I meant what I said what I meant. Thank you very much.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 15:12

#32

Midnight-Dj

Well, the obisidain weapons ARE intended to be poison inflicting. I mean the crusher is a hybrid of electron vortex and venom veiler (in theory at least). So what if it is misleading, Nick is at the end of the day obligated to not spoil anything. If he said that the new weapons will be poison inflicting, that would be a spoiler and what is worse, it came from the developer himself.

Anyway, this reminds me of the free elevator patch, where he said that the loot are no longer shared. And boy did that send me into a panic, I am a support knight and the update sounds like we have to pick up our own stuff before others take them. And being the one who stay behind the swordies, it sounds almost impossible to get any loot for myself after the patch. I don't know how many people quit the game simply because of that misleading statement. Nice one Nick, nice one. (Is the free ele a way to help you make up for that mistake? You do realize that free ele allows noobs to burn through the game contents ten times faster than they did with the mist tank? Check how many new colbalt noob vanguards you have made!)

I guess Nick didn't hire any dwarfs to write his announcement script afterall...

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 15:17

#33

Battlegrinder

Did OOO really have a better

Did OOO really have a better way to release these things? The Kate's cowls are already a controversial item to some people, but al least they are very limited in terms of what you can do with them. I don't see anyway that OOO could release a very unique weapon without causing a controversy, and I doubt these weapons are going to be free of that kind of drama either. slightly different branching weapons are possibly the only way OOO can add event-restricted gear without having it blow up in their face.

And as Zeddy pointed out, people have been wanting these typed of weapon for ages. Now you have them, and you're whining about the wording the announcement! Is there no pleasing you people?

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 15:40

#34

Rezzler

No wonder spiral knights isnt

No wonder spiral knights isnt as big as League of oegends, world of warcraft, or other stuff. Its because of dumb stuff like this.

If OOO was a business like best buy, and they went against their customers wishes, they wouod be out of business like in a year.

Too bad they are not able to understand what makes a good game. Quite sad...quite pathetic indeed.

Worst part is, they wont do anything about it.

Gqme gets more and more lame.....and the cycle continues.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 15:59

#35

No-Thanks

dont flip the tables

players talking BS about OOO is the only thing, that has always been done

i do not even want to care about the actual topic(which should be a joke really!) and neither should anybody else reading this
you are given a game to play for free, which is being maintained and regularly updated and all you do is gather facts to justify completely ridiculous complaints at these people?
ironically, they sometimes put themselves in a bad light on their own, which is why i never know in these forums, when somebody is being serious or not and neither do i want to care

but this looks rather serious and im just here to point out, that your actions make you an actual bad person compared to people with good intent despite their imperfection(i dont even acknowledge their "misleading" words as an imperfection..yea im still sane u...lucky guy protected by forum rules and common sense)

ive complained about alot of things, too, but when you reach the point of directly talking to the staff in such a rude way, you should either do it via mail or get up and make a freaking game on ur own, just so u can spread some truth about it

who knows..maybe itll be so interesting, that 1 day i might end up finding and playing it
but odds are ull keep on ranting and trash talking or joking

if i were to ever tell OOO what to do, i would tell them to keep their forums clean of junk like this or to move on make another game and leave this trashy community to some other poor guy..but theyre better than that and all you do is criticize how they talk about their work

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 16:24

#36

Zeddy

Well, that's a couple of extreme posts in both directions.

For the record, apart from the imbalance regarding Acheron and Obsidian Carbine, I think this was a really good update! The mission is a lot of fun, featuring a new map, (Functionally new, even!), with an entirely new enemy, soundtrack, puzzles, gimmick, the works. This is exactly how I want my events to be!

I like the weapons, too! The aesthetic difference from their other weapons in their lines are much more involved than the Cleavers were, for instance, where the function of the weapon was a complete mismatch from what the weapons themselves looked like. Poison is cool, too, so I'm glad to see poison added onto more weapon lines.

If the weapons were actually new, I think that would be a bad thing. Event-limited things should not be unique! Why would you hide away cool stuff like that?

Regarding the update itself, I don't have many sour grapes at all.

It's that statement. The topic is about that statement and the other statements like it. Statements such as:
it is not our intention to reduce the power of these bombs in any way. (The power of these bombs got literally halved. And that's just the raw damage per shard.)
Over the next couple of months, we will focus on refining these features and other areas of the game further to improve the overall experience of Spiral Knights, with an emphasis on improving the balance of Battle Sprites (We had maybe one patch nerfing Caustic Quills slightly and some bugfixes. Sprites, and especially their ultimates, are still largely imbalanced and/or bugged in glaringly obvious ways.)

Those two are the ones I can remember off the top of my head, but you could find a lot of this just digging through announcements.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 16:46

#37

Canine-Vladmir

ooooh, you guys is so mad

but what you forgot is:
Spiralception

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 18:56

#38

Aiden-Curry-Puff

Post #36 sums it up for me.

This patch really was quite brilliant.

The misleading wordplay sours that mildly.

But I'd say this is the best, most outside-the-box patch we've received in a long time. (:

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 19:37

#39

Arkate

Great Patch.

This is an amazing patch, that adds in some formidable items. Face it, every game in the world that is a PvE game always has a group of better-than-most weapons. Deal with it. The people complaining about the items already have them anyways, so why complain? The items have slightly different mechanics, yes. But I still think tentacles that drag your opponent in would've been cooler...

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 20:48

#40

Culture

Hmm

I agree with #36, this really is a fun patch with some very enjoyable and surprising content. Massive kudos to the dev team!

Just with a name like "crusher" I was hoping to finally have a shadow blast bomb, but a poison vortex is useful too.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 20:55

#41

Xxpapaya

The papaya attempt to relive some tension

[Tension relieving system:ON]
But I like proto guns :D

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 22:35

#42

Waffleconecake

They don't bother making truly new weapons anymore.

And yet some people wounder why I get so aggravated on these forums sometimes.
The main reason is with how the admins work.
The secondary reason is how the forum posters work.

The thing that aggravates me the most is that they could use a suggestion for all of these weapons. I'll just simply remake 3 of my current weapon ideas into a theme that would work for this.
"Reflective Twister"
Remember that one scythe I made for that one stupidly large danger mission token thread? No? Okay. Here it is. Well this is basically that but it just looks like obsidian and stuff. Maybe hands during the charge spin.

"Shadow Caller"
Oh hay, its that one cross bow gun I made for the same thread. What a concentrated area of suggestions for new weapons. If only it was used. Now it is basically obsidian and hands fall from the sky or just appear form the ground.

"Solidifying Shadows"
And now its just that one arctic bombI made for the HoI tokens.
Now it just makes dark shadows and the freeze effect could be the hands.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 22:50

#43

Hexzyle

@Xxpapaya

Agreed. Proto guns are awesome.
I remember when I first started up my reboot character. I used the Frost Gun alongside my Khovorod because of the Frost Gun's knockback, chance of knockdown, freeze, and three shot combos.

Thu, 10/24/2013 - 23:28

#44

Oatmonster

Lick Number 58425

If you're only technically telling the truth to your customers, you're probably doing something wrong.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 05:45

#45

Iamnoone

ditto

"And yet some people wounder why I get so aggravated on these forums sometimes.
The main reason is with how the admins work.
The secondary reason is how the forum posters work."

That order can be reversed sometimes. It can also be admins aren't working at handling forum issues and posters are tearing up the forum and other users. It could also be admin suddenly works aggressively and recklessly to handle issues after they see why they should have been working to handle the problem.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 08:26

#46

Magnum-Frost

Comparison time!

Say I have a bright yellow graphite pencil, the purpose I have intended for this pencil is stabbing. Now say I paint that pencil black and purple, put cyanide on the pointy graphite part, and even make the eraser glow in the dark. Have I made a new weapon-pencil-thing? Will a news reporter be dumbstruck upon finding this object at a crime scene, not knowing what to call it? The answers are no and no. I have not made something new, I just changed its aesthetics and coated it with something to make it more lethal, and it would still be a pencil.

To compare, if you were to take a sentenza and, oh I don't know, make it look like some black rocks held together by purple stuff, and for added effect, made its bullets poisonous, then what do you have? I'll tell you what you have, you have an awesome looking sentenza with poison bullets...but that doesn't change the fact that IT IS STILL A SENTENZA. As the old saying goes, you can dress up a pig, but it's still a pig. "But wait, didn't they say these weapons were NEW?!"...Of course they did, silly, that is what they ALWAYS say!

Honestly, I don't mind the "new" weapons, they are pretty cool and I plan on getting them. What I DO mind is the fact that though these weapons are unique in looks and even have a status effect thrown in, they are marketed as being NEW. These weapons are most certainly DIFFERENT, they are not NEW.

Please note, devs, we don't hate you, we don't mean any harm, and this post especially was not designed to be angry, just disappointed. The players of this game, me especially, love the work that you have done with this game and the blood, sweat, and tears that you have put into appeasing your (sometimes a bit demanding) customers. But please, PLEASE, try to understand that labeling something as something that it is not, even if it is -technically- correct, should not be the way to go about hype. If you were to tell us that we got "Poison variants of the sentenza, acheron, and graviton vortex!" that the community probably would have been in an uproar...an uproar of PRAISE, praise for finally getting these variants, not new weapons, that people have been asking for for so long. We love ya', Three Rings, but please understand that most of us will be disappointed when we find out that the fact that the stuff we were promised is "new" is only -technically- correct.

Fri, 10/25/2013 - 10:51

#47

Yvanblo

Let me add a bit

(I'm being calm, by the way. This may sound angry, but it's not, at all. Just a bit disappointed) Although I agree with Zeddy and the point he is making, let me just say; I expect this sort of behavior from OOO. I can't say that I'm ok with it, or don't mind, because I do mind. OOO is soooo secretive and 'can be' a bit misleading at times. I have had some poor luck on a few occasions that, had OOO been a little more open with the SK community (or perhaps hyped the 'actual features' & rewards of an upcoming event), I would have avoided entirely.

That being said... I have played Spiral Knights for well over 900 hours at this point... and I anticipate playing hundreds more hours. I can generally hang with the choices OOO makes. I don't always like them, and plenty of things bother me about the game and the way the company handles things, but it's a fun game, and I like playing it.

OOO: Thank you for a very fun game, please consider our thoughts and concerns.

EDIT: I wrote this before I refreshed and saw post #46. Notice that we said pretty much the same thing 'not angry, just disappointed'. This statement is sincere, and very important.

p.s.
I am really enjoying the new event!
However, I'm a bit bummed that I
don't have time to do both Halloween events.
Plus Borderlands 2 is having a HUUUUGE
event right now as well... if you have
not heard, they are giving away ~$146,000
in money and prizes!!! 3 events... so little time. sigh.

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If you don't take your own words seriously, we won't either