Spiral Knights - Brandish balance! (Again)

Brandish balance! (Again)

33 respuestas [Último envío]

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 11:17

Autofire

I have an easy brandish fix that should balance them even without decreasing their (crazy high) damage. I think that changing the charge attack so that the explosions turn in a random direction (and angle) from the attacker. So, if I were to use a charge attack, it could veer to the left, right, or travel straight. Each explosion would turn the same amount as the last, and they couldn't turn too sharp. (Maybe up to 20-25 degrees on each explosion.) This would make the Brandishes reliable at close range, but not so much of a sniping weapon.

Note that the explosions would still always push forward, so you can only have enemies travel along the wave of explosion if they travel straight.

This would effect every single brandish like charge, including Proto Sword and other T1 weapons with similar charges. However, when you are working with 1-2 explosions, the effect is so small that you wouldn't really be effected by it. It only is more noticeable when you have more explosions, where the turn effect can stack.

I got this idea from Red Rovers in FSC, believe it or not.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 13:11

Arcknightdelta

@ Autofire

Not a bad suggestion. But then there won't be any skill in using. Like you wouldn't be able to pull of trick shots if you didn't know the direction the wave was going. It will all be a bit random and annoying. I like the brandish line as it is now. It doesn't need a fix because it's not broken.

Maybe something like the spur line. The disks could veer off in all sorts of random directions. But obviously to truly test it we need a 5 star version of it.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:10

Klipik-Forum

What about this?

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:17

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

It doesn't need a fix because it's not broken.

I fail the believe that.

Convince me. I'm tired of being the only one who thinks that it's broken and that it's too gun-like. I WANT to believe that it's not broken, just like you do, but I don't.

I don't think OOO wants to ever nerf any sword's damage, so we're stuck with high damage on the Combuster and the Acheron, but at least this could help. If players wanted consistency, get they'd get the slow Divine Avenger.

And besides, you're still doing top-notch damage if just 2 explosions hit. (Nearly 1k damage against a Gremlin on the Acheron. My DVS with Gremlin MAX will take a bit longer to do that amount of damage.)

Also, the Spur line sooo doesn't need to be random. It's already random enough... (Sometimes it doesn't hit or it hits very late on the charge.)

EDIT: Klipik sniped me. Yes, that might work. I'm not sure, though...it would make it totally own large slow enemies which previously don't get pushed by the explosions.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:30

Arcknightdelta

@ Autofire

Well take Voltedge for example. If a monster gets shocked it won't ride the wave, or it will very rarely. In my experience using it in fsc, I hardly ever get zombies to take all explosions with the charge. So they aren't taking the max damage from it. Same applies to Blizzbrand. I haven't played in ages so I can't say more than this. But I can say when I was using my Voltedge it was balanced in terms of the explosion hitting and riding the full length of the explosion.

@ Klipik-Forum; that's not bad. It's sort of like that ultimate move from Drakon, firestorm or something? I don't know the name sorry. But then again just image the devastation using it combined with an electron vortex! Nope straight predictable line is better.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:32

Trats-Romra

to Klipik

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:37

Gpyro

@Arcknightdelta

Not really since if you shield bump the large enemies they do ride the waves.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:39

Arcknightdelta

@ Gpyro

Serious? So wait do you shield bump immediately after you release the charge? Will it work with Voltedge?

Edit: I'm only talking about zombies. It seems impossible to me. The speed of the explosion is too fast to successfully shield bump and regardless it requires skill to pull off. Therefore enforcing what I said. The brandish line is balanced.

Edit: you can't shield bump shocked or frozen enemies.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:39

Gpyro

@Arcknightdelta

Sadly i don't know with Voltedge or Glacius but i know it works with the others.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:42

Arcknightdelta

@ Gpyro

Interesting. But again it just means you have to do something that extra to take full use of the charge of the brandish line. So again no need to fix something that isn't broken. Autofire have I convinced you? If not ask more questions. I'll try my best to answer them if I can =)

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:45

#10

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

and combuster, acheron and obsidian? you know, addressing problems to damage with half of the line doesn't mean the other half is broken.
and I still believe that the whole line does too much damage, not only with the charge. I have a 4* blazebrand and it's OP already.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 14:55

#11

Arcknightdelta

@ Thunder-The-Bright

It does a tonne of damage. I use max damage as well with my chaos set and BTS. But then nerf the damage not the random or cluster nature of the charge. But then again I don't know. Just imagine the rage when OOO nerf the Voltedge damage after they buffed the Acheron damage.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:02

#12

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

acheron is balanced with other brandishes so it will be probably nerfed alongside them.
that being said, I think that the chanrge should be more sword-like. the swing it does when you charge, 1.5x damage and 3-4x wide, and only that. maybe knockback, but it will probably flinch everything so it's not really needed.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:10

#13

Megawatt-King

>Klipik-ForumWhy not using

>Klipik-Forum
Why not using that charge on a separate weapon? The brandish lines are fine, the absurd damage is the only thing that's wrong with them.

>Autofire
Two problems:
1 - The charge will rely more on luck than skill (which it doesn't really take much of it anyways...)
2 - Not everyone constantly spams charge attacks. With or without charge attack, you can still turn a lumber into chopsticks with the regular attacks alone.

As I said, damage is the only thing that is wrong with the brandish - the charge attack is fine, the damage however is not. Don't try to fix what's not broken.

Sorry, it's a -1 from me.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:09

#14

Arcknightdelta

I don't Price Check no more. I ask for Price Checks

I hate to -1 suggestions, but for the reasons given above I wouldn't want a change in it's direction or spread of charge. Nerf the damage only or leave it as it is.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:13

#15

Gpyro

Guns and bosses

Personally i don't think we should be asking for swords to to be balanced right now but talk about guns and their balancing since the gunner update hasn't been released yet so its possible that we can kinda of influence what gets changed. But that's just me.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:18

#16

Megawatt-King

We can't give feedback...

We can't talk about gun balance when they're being tested out for a later patch. Since most of us don't have access to it, we don't know how the guns behave there and we cannot give proper feedback for it. Trying to discuss it here would be somewhat futile, leaving the discussion about swords and bombs' balance alone.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:22

#17

Arcknightdelta

I don't Price Check no more. I ask for Price Checks

Ib4 GD being spammed with OMG they nerded Valiance! OMG they made Polaris explosion larger! OMG Blitzneedle fires less spikes than before! Etc...etc...etc...

Oh believe me trying to suggest a fix for brandish lines will be the least of your worries once gunner update is finally released to us.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:22

#18

Gpyro

@Megawatt-King

I was talking about the guns we have now and how balanced they are. Sorry for the confusion.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:38

#19

Megawatt-King

Arcknightdelta Devs can

Arcknightdelta
Devs can listen to the community at times but they're not full retard. Personally, Valiance doesn't need changes and the Pulsars can be easily and fairly nerfed by only limiting the "magazine" size for two shots, just like the alcheimer guns.

Gpyro
Ah, I see. Still, it can't be seriously discussed by the common folk until the update is released.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 15:43

#20

Gpyro

@Megawatt-King

That's true well back to the topic

What about adding the status was added to the regular attacks. If this follows the pattern already in place by OOO they would decrease the damage to balance it.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 16:22

#21

Megawatt-King

You don't want to make

You don't want to make tradeoffs with an OP weapon. It would probably be less powerful for PvE, thats for sure, but it could be a bigger problem for PvP.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 17:00

#22

Gpyro

@Megawatt-King

Lockdown is broken. Lockdown should not be a factor in whether a weapon gets nerfed or not. Lockdown needs to be balanced seprately.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 17:09

#23

Megawatt-King

Gpyro Lockdown is broken and

Gpyro
Lockdown is broken and will remain so as long as all the gear available stay heavily imbalanced. The weapons that are used on PvE are the same ones that you use on PvP. Weapons MUST be balanced for both PvP and PvE.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 17:22

#24

Gpyro

@Megawatt-King

Weapons were created to kill monsters in the game. If we were to nerf the toothpicks for example wolvers and friends would kill swordies since these fast paced weapons are designed to hit those enemies fast and hard. Lockdown needs to be re-balanced separately from PvE or else people will start complaining the monsters are too hard.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 17:58

#25

Megawatt-King

Most monsters are laughably

Most monsters are laughably easy to begin with, specially wolvers thanks to the nerfbatting along the time. You can kill them with pretty much with anything, as long as it's suitable for the depth.

The Flourishes need a different sort of nerf however. It's not the damage that is the main problem, it's the 1st attack's range, which is what makes it OP on lockdown IMHO. All it's need to be done is to make the 1st attack to be like the 2nd. That's it. It would still be viable as a PvE weapon and it would actually require skill to use it on PvP.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:02

#26

Pipipipipi

not on the subject but,

yes, wolvers are increadibly easy, the only time I get killed by wolvers is when I'm afk

wolvers need buffs, they are probally the most loved monster in game (other then mewkat and lovepuppy) yet the easiest

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:04

#27

Gpyro

@Megawatt-King

the first swing deals with most friends

@Pipipipipi
yes wovlers need buffs as do most monsters in the game.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:11

#28

Megawatt-King

Gpyro

If you use autoaim, the nerf I suggested isn't going to be much of a problem for them. If you don't, you just need to git gud. Simple.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:11

#29

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

WOAH LOT'S OF POSTS.

Darn, guys, you need to stop posting when I'm away for a few hours.

Yes, I really do agree that Brandish damage needs to be nerfed somewhat...but I was trying to think outside the box with this. Having it up to luck isn't a great idea, but what else can I do?

Did you know that Brandishes used to go up to 4* and the chance for getting even 4 explosions was rare? You usually got 2 explosions. Maybe that would be the ticket? Nerf damage and then make the chance for having 5 explosions decrease a bit. (I dunno....50% for 3 explosions, 25% for 4, and 25% for 5 or something.) The other star ratings can follow suit.

@PVP & PVE topic

Both are important, but PvE is more important because that's what the game is built for. PvP is a side thing, even if endgame players go there.

And besides, hasn't anyone heard of PvP stats? As in, stats/effects that only kick in when playing PvP? Give OP weapons negative PvP stats, UP ones positive stats, etc.

However, make another thread if you want to talk about this sorta thing, please. I don't like my threads to leave their rails...

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:34

#30

Arcknightdelta

@ Autofire

You can't nerf the damage then reduce the number of explosions and base it on chance like it was before. It would totally break the brandish line and really it will be back to square one. I personally think it is fine the way it is. If people want anything changing and this is really nit picking now, reduce the damage. End of.

Edit: based on data from wiki. Correct me if I'm wrong

DA charge does 611 on charge swing and the projectile does 188 each
VOLTEDGE charge does 547 on swing and the explosion does 166 each.

If this is correct why should Voltedge get a nerf in damage?

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:39

#31

Megawatt-King

Autofire

Hey, as I said: don't fix what's not broken. Personally I prefer to keep things consistent, so I don't think it would be a good idea to make the number of explosions RNG based. It's still luck based.

About weapon balance, I would say it's more important to balance weapons around PvP because it's where it matters the most to be enjoyable. In PvE you mostly depend on the gear you choose, which can be more or less specialized against the monsters you'll face, and not just for the special damage (ex: Callahan is extremely effective vs devilites, but it's not as good against trojans or gorgos, where the blitz needle excels at them but its lack of mobility makes the user more vulnerable to devilites), therefore making it harder to balance.

PvP in the other hand, you'll have to take whatever is the most powerful so you can stay competitive, which means you can't really make a free choice when setting up for it, because you'll be pummeled by those who follow the meta if you don't.

Balancing weapons for PvP doesn't automatically mean it will be useless for PvE though.

I don't know about differentiating stats, but it wouldn't work if it's more than stats the weapon is OP for, like the flourishes.

For the sake of your thread, I'll stop here. Sorry for going offtopic.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:42

#32

Sandwich-Potato

The charge attack is overpowered in that it can send a large crowd of monsters across the room away, so a person who wears Chaos can spam charge attacks and never be touched by most monsters ever by using only one weapon. Either reduce the size of the explosions, reduce the knockback, or do as Autofire says. And then we have to nerf down the normal swing damage by quite a bit as well.

Sáb, 02/08/2014 - 18:54

#33

Megawatt-King

Sandwich-Potato

Reducing knockback (just a bit!) and damage are the only nerfs I can agree with. The rest not so much.

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Brandish balance! (Again)