Forums › English Language Forums › General › Suggestions

Search

Suggestion for Three Rings for Lockdown

9 replies [Last post]
Sun, 11/30/2014 - 00:04
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On

Alright, this suggestion is directed to Three Rings, but is open to discussion as always!

*Hides in nuke-proof bunker* Here goes...

I have some thoughts on how Lockdown can be improved for everyone who plays.

I believe Lockdown is a huge part of the game, and in my opinion is the only thing preventing a significant portion of players from quitting. The majority of players are bored with the PvE content (AKA Vana, since few people do anything but Vana), and beating off 3 players in a 1v3 situation in lockdown and snagging the win with 5 seconds to go just makes you feel like a boss. Personally, I grinded Vana for a month to make my LD set, and didn't do any clockworks related stuff for 3 weeks after I finished.

In short, Lockdown is very enjoyable, and it's unique in that it takes effort to make a good LD set, and you feel more compelled to do better because you made what you fight with, instead of most games where you just join and everyone has the same stuff. The more effort you put into making your set, the more you want to win (winning could be winning the match pointwise, or doing the most damage, or whatever other definition people have personally) (imo)

This brings me to my main point. The people who play Lockdown do so because they most likely want to beat the other team. Winning means you did better than the other team. I think winning in Lockdown would mean more if there was a guarantee that each player did what they did to the best of their own personal ability. Yeah, you know whats up. AT.

Auto Target is a very handy feature in PvE. It gives you information on our enemies, and helps new players hit enemies that are challenging to hit if you are unfamiliar with their tactics.

However, when PvP was introduced back in September 2011, it dragged AT with it in the settings. This wasn't a big problem in the first few weeks, since people were still figuring out things such as invinciframes, stunlocking, defense, etc. But after players started to become more and more skilled based off of knowledge, AT slowly rose into consciousness.

People quickly came to realize that using AT with swords made other players easier to hit. Later on, people realized that you had to stand still with guns in order for AT to work. Then, the realization came that AT is basically the computer doing a decent bit of work for the player.

To put it differently: There are a 3 main aspects to fighting an enemy in lockdown.
1) Movement and Positioning - This is how you position yourself with respect to the enemy. Optimally, you would be in a position to hit the enemy, while they can't hit you. This is combined with timing.

2) Timing - Basically, when to attack. Optimally, this would be when the enemy has just attacked, or just prior to the attack (just prior can lead to stunlocking quite easily)

2) Aim - Where you aim your cursor with respect to the enemy. Varies depending on weapon. Optimally, your aim would be in a place that hits the enemy

The problem comes when people who use AT and people who don't battle. The player who uses AT Only has to do 2-2.5 of the 3 main aspects of fighting, while the non AT user always has to do all 3. In a broad view, this is not balanced. Here are some examples of what kind of benefit AT gives (These example are not 100% identical, but they just give an idea)

Hypothetical Examples:
-Tennis match, 1v1: Only one player can hit in the doubles lines, the other has to hit in the singles lines (The player who can hit in the doubles lines would have a larger margin of error with their hits)
-Soccer match, team vs team: One goal is smaller than the other (Players on one team have a larger margin of error than the other)
-War: One side of the war gets to use heat-seeking missiles, the other side doesn't (Side that uses heat seekers has larger margin of error)

Basically, Auto Target gives users an unfair advantage over a player that doesn't use auto target, because they can hit the player that doesn't use it more easily than they normally would. If both players use auto target, then the game heavily favors the player that uses swords, followed by guns. Gun hit registering is delayed longer than sword hit registering (tested in different servers), and bombs don't even benefit from AT. What this means is that AT on swords allows sword users to pretty much dominate any other player, assuming equal skill. Next would be AT guns, since lines such as the Antigua line or Valiance can be used with AT and hit almost all of the time, unless the target moves perpendicularly to the line of fire (as a striker only).

To sum it up, here are all of the reasons why AT is not good for a skill-based minigame:
1) AT reduces variety, since it works best with swords, followed by guns, and lastly doesnt work on bombs. It skews variety heavily towards sword users, which reduces the diversity of enemies in lockdown. Right now, finding a match with a gunner or bomber is quite rare. Seeing as guns and bombs are part of the game, it would benefit LD to have more bombers and gunners, since variety is more interesting than fighting the same thing over and over.

2) AT gives players an unfair advantage when fighting, since it lets a computer do the work that would normally have to be done by a player to reach the same point.

3) This was not mentioned above, but AT also negatively affects the mood of lockdown games. During a game, if someone accuses someone else of AT, everything goes downhill. There is no way to counter AT accusations, and everyone starts saying things like "AT noob" and otherwise insulting whoever uses AT. The thing here is, everyone always says something negative about AT. It is always negative, never positive. Lockdown has been reduced to a group of people who enjoy it so much that it keeps them tied to this game, but the main complaint they have is always about AT.

4) AT is free. Unlike a good, heated Ld set, UVs, Trinkets, or even a Polaris. All of those take effort to make, while AT is free from the start. Getting a benefit that big for free is quite unfair: If 2 players are fighting, and one has AT while the other has UVs, the AT players has an unfair advantage. The person who has UVs either spent a lot of time getting them, or paid money to get them. The AT user only had to log on, and click the box. To an extent, AT seems like a paid feature that is free, since it has such a huge impact on fights.

Because AT is hated by the vast majority of LD players, I think a lot of people would very much appreciate if it were changed in some way. Here are a few suggestions:
1) Remove AT from lockdown altogether. I feel like AT is not necessary for anyone who has a stable ping. (Regardless if you are from Australia or a 4bar US player, constant ping means you have to get used to where to aim based on your circumstances. The only place AT would benefit is if you have fluctuating ping, in which case it is near impossible to play consistently. But since this isn't even playable, AT has no need for anyone of any connection type)

2) Disable AT after X amount of hours accumulated in lockdown. This would allow new players only to use AT to get used to how lockdown works. Then after, say, 50 hours, the option would turn off and they can use their knowledge to fight competently instead of having to use a crutch constantly.

3) Provide a debuff for using AT -> Could be justified by lore: For example:
-AT takes energy from the armor in order to aim, thereby reducing (movement speed/ASI)
-AT uses energy from the weapon to aim, thereby reducing damage
-AT requires a full cycle of the weapon to be used (no shield canceling)

4) Allow players to pay money in order to be allowed to use AT (perhaps like a one time purchase of $10, or a recurring maintenance cost like trinket slots (say, 500 energy per month to be able to use AT) - this would give AT users justification to use AT

Just a few ideas, I'm sure other people at OOO HQ/players have better ones.

To conclude, I think making a serious change to AT in lockdown needs to happen. Too many times I have entered a game, and seen the chat ruin the fun of the game by people accusing others of AT. It is not just me, since in the Coliseum thread there are always posts/threads about AT. All of the tournaments there are no AT tournaments, since nobody respects anyone who uses AT.

To the OOO employees: Since it is hard to see exactly why AT is an annoyance to skilled players just based off of complaints, might I recommend trying out LD yourselves? Though seeing how AT makes fights unfair would take a while of playing, since it takes time to learn which players do and don't use AT. Or you could spectate some matches, and watch the rage unfold (doesn't happen every match, but it happens often enough)

Thank you for reading this. It would be awesome if a GM or Dev could respond with a counterargument (or hopefully agree!), but I'd be happy if it is at least considered at OOO HQ. Thanks again! I do realize you guys are still people too, and all the hate floating around on the forums can get to people. Hopefully everything is going good! Regardless of what you guys do with respect to the game, its awesome as it is, and I have had fun playing ever since June 2011. Peace out!

Sun, 11/30/2014 - 00:41
#1
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
LD is broke

Not only AT but several other factors can ruin the LD experience.

HP trinkets for example. Most players who join LD for the first time don't have them, they end up a burden on their team and usually end up losing, by the time they have crafted a pair of 5 star trinkets they are horribly beaten down. (that is if they even know about HP trinkets)

UVs for example. Most casual players don't spend thousands of CR trying to get a boost that will have little effect on PVE gameplay yet in LD ASI and CTR are massive boons. Armor UVs are also a problem in that it prevents strategies that should work from becoming popular. Without armor UVs a Skolver would be at the mercy of a VT bomber and would have to change loadouts to something immune, gun, or just find another point.

Pay to win for example. Most casual players won't spend money or time trying to gather trinkets or UVs, but then there are those that do. But then what is the point of this if someone who has millions of CR bought a BK set, or the Mixmaster, or both. Even us more invested players don't want to spend our life trying to get the BK holy grail set with Box only items.

Certain weapons, the LD meta has gotten to such a point that only a few select weapons are used, with no real LD specific weapons (that don't come in boxes) being added on a regular basis the meta has stagnated.

Classes for example. Being able to tank several hits as a striker was never it's intended purpose and with the inclusion of various armors and trinkets LD is now mainly a striker only place. Recon footsteps are visible (ruins gameplay especially on snow maps). Guardians get flinchlocked till their shield breaks and that is the end of that. Sure guardians and recons have their uses but if you go to any LD match right now you will see strikers zipping around, not guardians in bubbles or a recon popping in and out of view, just strikers.

_____________________________________________________________________

Lets take a look at a game that did pvp right...... TF2.

When it comes to weapon and class power there is no difference between the paying player and the free player. None of the weapons have "Unique variants" that boost their power to incredible levels (there are stranges that count kills and stuff but nothing that F2P cant get something equal to) . Classes don't have items that boost their HP to ridiculous level and the items that do provide increased defense or offence come with a penalty of some sort (such as taking up an item slot). When picking a class the paying players don't have more HP or a higher DPS.

You have as much chance of being killed by and idiot or a pro. Or a pro acting like an idiot... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiZnerD8nTo

And this is weird..... TF2 doesn't have any features that let a paying player exploit the system to be more powerful yet TF2 has made incredible amounts of money and it is balanced.... I applaud Valve for this decision, I have seen too many games go over to the dark side of getting player to pay even if it means breaking the game for money.

Sun, 11/30/2014 - 02:05
#2
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I don't think you're arguing this correctly. I talked a good deal with Plancker about this, and his consensus was that auto target was fair, but simply not fun. This is an argument that I can get behind- if it makes the game legitimately worse, and I can see how it would when people abuse it- then it should quite possibly be removed. I personally think that lockdown really just needs an overhaul in the way matches are made- for instance, a "casual" bracket that is what we have now, and then a no auto aim 360 noscope room for experienced players, as well as the ability to generate a party and set your own standards. A leaderboard overhaul would compliment this quite nice as well.

Things you said that aren't necessarily true or valid:

AT gives players an unfair advantage when fighting

Everyone can use auto target, and those that aren't using it have chosen not to when they could. This is like saying that queens in chess are cheap, and refusing to use yours. It's just bad play.

AT is free. Unlike a good, heated Ld set, UVs, Trinkets, or even a Polaris. All of those take effort to make, while AT is free from the start. Getting a benefit that big for free is quite unfair.

In most popular competitive games like football, checkers, Binding of Isaac Live Racing, etc. people receive everything in game for free. These sorts of games have as much of a level playing field as they can because it allows a very clear cut comparison- you know exactly who is the best at the game in question. In a way, having auto target be free is a good thing, as it levels the playing field and helps to make lockdown more legitimate.

AT is hated by the vast majority of LD players

You cannot possibly know this without having some kind of inside information from SEGA/Three Rings. I made a thread thinking the same thing about auto target, and was surprised when a large number of players had no problem with auto target-- you can say that a large number of people that you know and have seen do not like it, but you cannot say that the vast majority of lockdown players hate it, especially when a lot of those players are new to lockdown.

Sun, 11/30/2014 - 07:37
#3
Jungle-Sword's picture
Jungle-Sword
Meh...LD

Nice wall of text (I read it all)
Ummmmm to your arguments:
- about everything is OK what you said, except the last few ideas of changing AT
- making ppl have to PAY for AT won't help, so many ATers I know are rich enough, and that would make it also a bit pay2win
- debuff? nothx. Most players who use AT use brandishes with ASI H/VH so instead of being killed in 3 hits, you get killed in 4 hits...hooray I can survive 1millisecond longer :D

But in general, OOO has to change the classes, defenses and trinkets. I mean I use 1 penta heart trinket in LD and still get killed by two GF/DA FIRST HITS!!! (only as long as the DA/GF is heated to 10 and the player has DMG bonus max or higher; skolver, chaos or BKC)

I still think lobbies would be awesome, I mean then you can have ATers have their own matches and non-ATers have theirs. And then maybe the ATers will notice how crappy AT is and will stop using it! :D (not that that is likely....)

Also, OOO should make LD more attractive to new player, for example they can make sullivan have more recipes. I only started LD because I really wanted a triglav. And after about 20 matches, I started to LIKE LD (even though I always got steamrolles) and so I started play LD regularly.
Of course there are others ways of making LD better for new players to come (You guys can think about that).

@fehzor
if you use your queen a lot in chess, you take a ppretty big risk. If you use AT in LD, you don't take any risk at all

I really hope a GM/dev will post some reply
Cheers

Sun, 11/30/2014 - 13:15
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

@Jungle-Sword

Welp I guess that invalidates everything I said. Never mind me.

Sun, 11/30/2014 - 13:45
#5
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
AT can be risky it makes slow

AT can be risky it makes slow guns less useful, you can't make a Polaris bullet wall if your AT locks onto someone and besides Pulsars require more prediction than a lot of guns, firing at where someone is doesn't help because they will be gone before the bullet gets there. Sometimes it takes control out of you hand and makes you attack the wrong player when you want to go after the more weakened one. Yes there are some bad situations but it generally is a positive boost.

Breaking up LD into matches with variations on how you play won't work now; why? LD has few players at any given time, finding players who all want to play on the same setting will be difficult and matches could take more time to find players if someone leaves.

I haven't seen a GM response to a suggestion since I joined the forums, I have seen responses to past suggestions but those posts are ancient.

Mon, 12/01/2014 - 00:25
#6
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

Oh btw, slightly relevant GM posting:

"PvP is something that the team wants to take a closer look at, but
it isn't at the top of the list right now. Auto Targeting is one small piece
of PvP. The team wants to take the time to look at the entire system. Making a
small, quick change to AT might be a bad idea and throw things off. The team
doesn't want to make a quick fix and break PvP."

Source: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/102765

Mon, 12/01/2014 - 09:08
#7
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

my argument for AT is have it disabled in PVP if someone has tier 3 clearance
they will know how things work by then

Mon, 12/01/2014 - 11:17
#8
Jungle-Sword's picture
Jungle-Sword
Meh...LD

@holy
Who uses slow guns in LD EXCEPT pulsar line? catalyzers? almost never. alchemers (if thats counted as a slow gun)? Nobody uses that with AT because valince just has better DPS and you won't need shock with AT if you are able to hit ppl 7 tiles away :D (dem shock nubs...)

@kilpik-forum
It's still worth giving OOO some ideas how to fix LD

Mon, 12/01/2014 - 12:52
#9
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

well then jungle
I guess you've never seen the utter fear of a striker clone who just got stunned by that idiot recon with a callahan

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system