Spiral Knights - Buying Items that needs Unbiding "unbind on buyer without buyer giving ce to seller"

Buying Items that needs Unbiding "unbind on buyer without buyer giving ce to seller"

20 respuestas [Último envío]

Sáb, 10/29/2011 - 14:33

Tadician

Sometimes the seller doesn't have the required CE to unbind an item he wanna sell, so I'd like to suggest a way to negate scamming

a way that i thought of is, having a circle in front of the unbinding merchant, then the seller and the buyer stand on it, if any of the two right clicks on the other he can see a new option "Unbind and Sell" (or whatever you would like to call it) and a trade box opens,preferably have a different look with the unbinding merchant showing up as well to know its a "Unbind and Sell" trade, and here you can actually click on a bound item from your arsenal(only bound items can be viewed in the arsenal while in this trade type, just like only items that can be auctioned show up in the arsenal when you open Auction House), and the item shows up in the seller's side of the box, and the amount of CE needed to unbind shows up on the buyers side of the box in a new field titled "Unbinding Fee" so he knows he is gonna pay that to the unbinding merchant(has to be in energy because unbinding buyer has to pay directly to the unbinding merchant), and he can give other things for the item he is Unbinding and buying

I will try to edit the trade box image in the wiki page to make it look like what I'm talking about, just to make it easier to understand
here is the image after editing, that is how its supposed to look like (or anything containing the unbinding fee field which auto fills itself depending on the item on the other side of the box)
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/728/newtradingbox1.png

any other suggestions on how the mechanism of the "unbind on buyer without buyer giving ce to seller" is welcome ^^

i would kindly ask the Developers of the game to do something like this to help us players be safe from scamers as much as possible

Thank you

Sáb, 10/29/2011 - 16:00

Madadder

the unbinding price is a

the unbinding price is a method to discourage it's usage and get the player to go the long way to getting the equipment. this undermines that

i myself disagree with this suggestion, people who get scammed either shouldnt have traded away their CE in the first place or should just report the individual who scammed them.

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 03:06

Tadician

still, there should be a safe

still, there should be a safe way to buy bound items for those who BUY energy and spend REAL MONEY on the game(most ppl with large amounts of energy buy it)
plus what if u wanna buy an item that has a very nice uv? but the seller doesnt have enough energy to unbind, u need a safe way risk-free

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 08:02

Madadder

doesnt matter about those

doesnt matter about those that buy energy since they can make the item themselves and roll UVs ( though it shouldnt matter UVs don't add a whole lot to the performance of the item)

all your looking for is a loop hole in the post 5/17 patch, which i will never support

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 09:32

Algol-Sixty

This is a popular suggestion

If you look through those threads, you will find that Madder is about the only player who is really against the idea.

the unbinding price is a method to discourage it's usage and get the player to go the long way to getting the equipment. this undermines that

As you said, the *price* is to discourage the use of unbinding (and for OOO to capture most of the value of 5* items via sunk CE instead of going to the seller). The way it is implemented just gives an large advantage to the rich and to the scammers.

If OOO really feels that there needs to be more to discourage unbinding than the current price, they should just raise the price.

people who get scammed either shouldnt have traded away their CE in the first place or should just report the individual who scammed them.

Scamming hurts OOO due to the support costs of handling complaint and due to people getting frustrated with the game. OOO is very likely being penny wise and pound foolish by consuming a lot of GM support so that the developers don't have to spend a small amount of time implementing this idea.

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 10:23

Madadder

Scamming hurts OOO due to the

then they shouldnt have traded their CE away it doesnt matter what the item is it isnt worth risking 4k CE for it

the price as it is now is good enough to discourage players any higher and people would riot.

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 12:29

Tablechair

thnx for all these links

thnx for all these links Algol-sixsty, i didnt know this idea was sugested b4, i thought that if it hasnt been implemented then the reason must be that it hasnt been suggested, bcoz its OBVIOUS that its a great idea and WONT HURT ANYONE AT ALL

@ Madadder:
the unbinding fee is to discoyrage ppl and make then work hard to make the item themselves u r tottaly right.
but why r u even talking about and defending something nobody suggested removing it??? That makes no sence

We r talking about something absolutely different here Madadder, we r talking about HOW IS THE UNBINDING FEE PAYED
heres what happens when someone wants to sell/buy a bound item
seller: /2 WTS a Divine Avenger
buyer: /t seller hi, how much for ur Divine Avenger
Seller: 6k ce
buyer: WHAT!!!???
Seller: its a 5* item, unbinding alone costs 4k
buyer: unbind?
Seller: yes, when u craft an item beyond 3* it gets bound to u so others have to pay the unbinding fee if they wanna get it without working hard making it
buyer: and where does this unbinding fee goes?
Seller: to the system, no body gets it, come to me and i will show u
*seller tells buyer he is at vise, and buyer comes to seller after seller tells buyer how to go to him*
seller: this is vise the unbinding merchant, he takes an energy fee to unbind bound items so that they can be tradable
*buyer talks to vise and finds out what the seller is saying it true*
buyer: ok so i will lose 4kce just so i can buy the sworrd, and 2kce to actually by it right?
Seller: yes and i will end up having 2kce only as 4kce will go to vise
*now heres when the buyer gets discouraged, thats what u r talking about Madadder, i myself got discouraged here, and im not thinking of buying a bound item at all unless to sell it therefore not losing the unbinding fee*
*here either the buyer decides to work hard as 4kce is a huge amount, or decides to buy it and the conversation goes on*
.uyer: ok i want
seller: ok give me 4k ce so i unbind the sword and then sell it to u for 2kce
buyer: why dont u unbind it urself and then i pay u 6kce for it at once?
Seller: bcz i dont have the ce(or seller: bcz u may back off the trade then i would unbind the sword and not be able to use it or the 4k ce for unbindkng would be wasted)
* and this is the point where my suggestion(and the other 4 same suggestions) would take effect*
OOO: dont worry guys, theres a way that ensures sellerr not running away with ce and buyer not backing off his offer after item being unbound
*now u can here put any possible solution from the ones in the 4 threads Algol-sixsty posted or mine or a new solution or even a combo of the solutions, anything that does the job*

u see the differance in what u r talking about and what we r suggesting Madadder?i agree with u but u r not getting what we r saying/suggesting

so much typing xD

btw this is me Vencint, its just i cant login with steam on my mobile phone so Tablechair is the account i use to post in the forums when im using my mobile phone

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 12:59

Madadder

i full well know what is

i full well know what is being suggested your saying at trade window (or vise npc) theres a window for the buyer to pay the unbinding cost instead of either the buyer giving the CE for unbinding or the seller unbinding it before selling.

thats why i am against it.... its almost exactly like before 5/17

as it is now, the buyer has to either risk unbinding the item to sell(if it sells at all) or has to make the buyer fork it over. both has it's risks and ultimately deters both sides from using the service. which is what i am saying

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 16:02

Tablechair

and why r u exactly against

and why r u exactly against the service?
Vise is there to unbind items, he has his high prices which should be enough to make ppl craft their own items, however who wants to spend ce to get items fast and easily theres vise, this suggestion added to the game wont effect u in anyway since i suppose u wont be using it
beside why would u care if others use vise to unbind items or no

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 13:30

Madadder

it will affect us all if

it will affect us all if people quit due to the lack of new content since people blaze through it all with a snap of a finger. i just dont want to see this game shut down because of something like this

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 15:59

#10

Tablechair

yes thats true, no new

yes thats true, no new content=ppl quit=game dies=OOO shuts down the game

but what does have this to do with new content exactly? U may say they will be working on this instead of the new content
but no, thats why this is a suggestions sub-forum, here u put whatever suggestions u have, then the Developers after releasing new content start doing things like the suggestions in this sub-forum, the shadow lairs have recently been released, which players r busy doing or collecting enough ce to actually get in, so devs should have a break from thinking about a new content, meanwhile they should work on improving the game's mechanism, this is 1 of the things that they should do in their "free time" of course depending on the suggestions' priorities

u see, problem solved, all happy ^^

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 17:27

#11

Madadder

actually there shouldnt be a

actually there shouldnt be a break, once one project is done, resources should be shifted to new projects. After all, they need to get the most out of their programmers, so they should be on the next update. "free time" implies off the clock activity which i don't know if OOO would allow. Both of us assume that OOO even take suggestions from the forums, which isnt all true but i feel compelled to voice my opinion

Dom, 10/30/2011 - 18:34

#12

Algol-Sixty

its almost exactly like

its almost exactly like before 5/17

No it isn't. It is the same as it currently is, except it reduces the problems with scamming, and it makes it so people who are not rich can trade.

Both of us assume that OOO even take suggestions from the forums, which isnt all true but i feel compelled to voice my opinion

OOO has stated, both here and on puzzle pirates, that they very much do take suggestions from player. The realize that forum users are not an unbiased sample of players, and OOO has significantly more information than we do, but they have said that suggestions are well worth their time to read.

Lun, 10/31/2011 - 11:20

#13

Tadician

the game is not perfect in

the game is not perfect in every way, means Devs cant put all their time into making new content, there r still things in the game they gotta fix, this is 1 of the possible things

and yes Algol is completely right

Lun, 10/31/2011 - 11:35

#14

Madadder

No it isn't. It is the same

No it isn't. It is the same as it currently is, except it reduces the problems with scamming, and it makes it so people who are not rich can trade

that's the thing if the buyer cant unbind due to the lack of CE, they are deterred for trying in the first place, leading to the reduction in the usage of vise. this of course could cause the player to make the buyer pay up first, but the buyer should just say no. its called common sense

Lun, 10/31/2011 - 15:03

#15

Orangeo

70 - 30. I'm somewhat bipartisan.

I have to side with madadder, to some extent. The whole point of having the high CE values that cannot be in the window are to prevent rapid fire selling of 5* items to rich customers. It's a simmilar premise to how basil blocks players who just joined, and how he only stocks one of each item per person. You can't farm rich people, and you can't farm basil. Taking away these principles causes more hurt then harm.

That being said, I'm sure there is a better way, and this is where I have to side slightly with Algo and Vincent. People scam players by saying they need an unbind, the same way they scam them saying they will get you the recipie that you want. OOO is basicaly using that scamming as a threat to players who try to work around basil or unbinding rules, and that's my one pet peeve. The system relys on players fearing that they will get scammed in order to prevent them from getting unbound items or basil recipies. I'm not going to chastize OOO however becuase I can't think of a better solution.

That illiterate guy whoms name escapes me;
"We r talking about something absolutely different here Madadder, we r talking about HOW IS THE UNBINDING FEE PAYED"
Indeed. He is talking about how it is payed. The point is that the Seller has to already have lots of money. This prevent's new players that buy 100$'s worth of ce from buying 5* gear from people. The seller has to have the money to sell it, as opposed to the buyer having purely enough money to buy it.

I'm all for replacing the system, but not removing it.

Lun, 10/31/2011 - 17:34

#16

Nicoya-Kitty

Possible unbinding solution:

Possible unbinding solution: Have Vise sell transferrable unbinding tickets. However, the unbound item will only be able to be traded to the person who bought the ticket.

Example, player A wants to buy a Pummel Gun from player B, but player B doesn't have enough energy to unbind it.

Step 1: Player A goes to Vise and purchases a 1* unbinding ticket for 100 energy.
Step 2: Player A trades the ticket to Player B.
Step 3: Player B unbinds the Pummel Gun at Vise using the ticket. The weapon can now only be either re-equipped and thus re-bound, or (ideally) traded to player A. The Pummel Gun cannot be traded to anyone else, mailed, steam traded nor sold on the AH.

Theoretically player B could still grief player A by wasting the ticket or running off or whatever, but they would gain nothing in the process other than player A's anguish and likely a ban for themselves.

Lun, 10/31/2011 - 17:38

#17

Orangeo

Seems awkward, not liking it.

Seems awkward, not liking it. Basicaly that makes it so they get the CE to unbind it, but they can't keep it and scam you. That basicaly serves the same purpose as changing it in the trade window, but I'd have to walk all the way over to vise.

Mar, 11/01/2011 - 06:15

#18

Zinqf

Combine Nicoya's Concept with the OP

Unbinding Solution:
#1 - Player 1 buys Unbinding Voucher from Vise for 1 crown (cost doesn't really matter here).
#2 - Player 1 attached Unbinding Voucher to the item as part of the process. Item is still bound but has the voucher attached like an accessory.
#3 - Player 2 buys item from Player 1 for a seperate cost and hits accept.
#4 - Before the trade goes through, Player 2 is given a confirmation window requesting an additional X CE (The price of the ticket).
- If the confirmation window is refused, then the trade is reset.
- If the confirmation window is accepted, then the original value of the trade goes to Player 1, Player 2 gets the item, and the X CE pays off Vise's Voucher (Going to neither player, essentially going to the NPC). The voucher is then removed from the item and unbound in Player 2's inventory.

Mar, 11/01/2011 - 12:04

#19

Antistone

Think some are missing the real issues

There's a lot of talk about how this will affect the amount of unbinding that occurs, but it seems to me the more important issues are:

#1 Anything that allows another knight to pay your unbinding cost means mist unbinding via mist alts

Currently, all your unbinding needs to be paid for by the same account that has the item, which means if you already play regularly or you want to sell bound items en masse, you're paying crystal energy. If someone else can pay the energy cost, you have to assume it will be an alt account with 100 mist. That means less CE being spent, effectively lowering unbinding costs, and also that people who don't have alt accounts are placed at a competitive disadvantage.

#2 Scammers will always exist

I think people are really overselling the advantages of this plan; maybe it'll reduce scamming slightly, but mostly I think it will just move it around. If they can't scam them with this, they'll find something else. An unbinding scam is basically just the Nigerian scam we all know and love ("I've got this really valuable thing I can't quite access, pay me up front so I can unlock it and give it to you").

In fact, with the ideas suggested in this thread, I predict we'd have people running around offering to unbind your items using their mist to save you money (just like people reselling Boost items), and that would lead immediately to scammers offering cheap unbinds and then keeping the unbound item instead of trading it back to you for the unbind cost (or any of several variants based on the specifics of the system). And people just like you will be back here suggesting that now we need to add safeguards so that you can pay someone else to unbind your item "safely".

#3 How many people are seriously going to benefit from this?

Some posters are suggesting that the seller of an item takes a risk by unbinding it, but if you've negotiated a deal with a buyer already, that's not really true (and if you haven't, then they're not around to pay the unbind cost for you). I guess hypothetically there could be griefers offering to buy items and then reneging after you unbind, but that's a lot of trouble and doesn't make the fake-buyer any profit, and still leaves you with an unbound item to sell to someone else, so I can't imagine that's common enough to worry about.

The only time the "intended" use of this feature comes up is when the seller can't afford to unbind. And that strikes me as kind of like complaining that you can't sell an item before you have all the ingredients to craft it or all the tokens to buy it. "Hey, I've got the recipe for this item, just give me the crafting cost in advance and I'll make it for you."

I don't think it's unreasonable to require that you actually possess a complete and unencumbered item before you're allowed to sell it. Yes, that means you have to save up enough to actually acquire a complete and unencumbered item to sell. The horror!

I doubt any buyers are really in the position of being unable to buy the item they want for a fair price unless they pay for the unbind up front. (The impossibly good deals the scammers claim to offer won't magically become real if you stop the scamming.)

Mar, 11/01/2011 - 15:16

#20

Orangeo

I agree with Antistone as

I agree with Antistone as much as I do madadder. The only problem with the points you presented is the fact that argument has already been made against them, multiple times. Not that I agree with those arguments, but the way you worded it makes you seem like you didn't read them. Example, point 3, "how many people will benifit from this?". Obviously, sellers. They wouldn't have to have a forward CE payment. I'm arguing as to why sellers need to have that much cash in their own wallet, as opposed to getting it from a customer.

@Zinqf
Nah, your idea seems just about the same as Nicoya and vincents, only with different formatting. A+ for effort though. The one thing that needs to stay is that the seller has to have the CE to unbind it first, and for some odd reason, that's what everyone want's to change. That's the purpose of what OOO did and it's what keeps players from buying their way through the game and quitting early.

So the seller has to have the CE in advance, and the buyer cannot provide CE to the seller to preform quicker sale. The problem with the current system is the fact that the only thing preventing the buyer from providing CE for the unbinding fee is the threat of scamming, and I find that somewhat unprofessional on OOO's part.

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Buying Items that needs Unbiding "unbind on buyer without buyer giving ce to seller"