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Proposed modifications to the Vanaduke boss fight

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jeu, 06/14/2012 - 21:23
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Addisond

Currently, Vanaduke is totally tame, outside of a few broken issues, one of which was fixed when they slowed down slag guard movement. His main attack is strong, but too slow to be likely to hit a knight without complications interfering. Slag guards are now too slow to be much of a threat, espescially when players freeze the right one and vana on spawn, alongside stacking blitzes on the left one for a quick kill. Zombies move too slow to be a feasible spawn for such an open-aired boss fight, unless they are made into more of an ever-present force that respawns regularly and is so abundant that it's impossible to run from. Vanaduke's charge becomes more dangerous throughout the stages, sure, but that remains his only viable attack, since his fire-chain attack has a very, very low chance to hit knights, even if they're standing right in front of him. Mask phases can be dangerous if messed up, sure, but it's easy to stand on the right side and throw water at the mask over and over again, while your teammates spam their swords. The only remaining problem is shadow fire, which can spawn in front of your path, so close that you take damage, or directly on you so you get trapped in the fire block. They can also contribute to small difficulties in avoiding them, but they aren't really much of an issue for parties using a shivermist or if you draw all the shadow fire out of bounds/to the top of the stage. Sure, he has gobs of health, but hearts drop like rain in phase five, so it is easily sustained, and earlier phases are easier.

Now, it's clear that there NEEDS to be some sort of change to this fight, since it is simply so incredibly easy. The last boss in a game shouldn't be so easily defeated. So, how do we do this?

Well, there are a few options. One, we can change it almost completely, as was done after beta, OR we can attempt to fix it in it’s current state. I’m going to propose a fix, but if you have ideas for near-complete re-dos, don’t be afraid to post!

1: Fix slag guard spawn locations

Currently slag guards are vulnerable to freezing and/or damage on spawn. I think that OOO should reconsider this and, instead, make them spawn with their backs to vanaduke’s protective fireballs, close enough that knights will not dare to attack them at spawn, for fear of getting burned.

2: Change debris mechanics

I propose that debris be prevented from falling outside the arena of play, and that shadow fire not spawn if a player is in the hitbox of the debris. I also propose that the damage, stun and fire of the debris be re-introduced, and that a new feature, the burning barricade, like other barricades, you know, those spikey things that take two hits to kill, that spawns where debris fall if knights are not hit and no shadow fire spawns. It hurts and players who run into it, similar to shadow fire. It burns up in two seconds; the point is to remove the aspect of probability from when players run over places where shadow fire just spawned (and they can’t see it; debris are a pretty good visual inhibitor), so that they are forced to just avoid the places where debris just fell. Also, debris would be prevented from dropping within one square of pre-existing shadow fire; this is intended to space shadow fire out more and make it harder to clump all the fire towards the top of the stage.

3: Change phase five attack addition

The added attack in phase three is actually worse than vanaduke’s mace slam, and this seems... wrong. If a boss is getting progressively easier, you’re going against one of the oldest traditions in game design; progressive difficulty. This attack is “broken” because it’s damage is essentially random assuming the player is not shielding until the flames pass by (it’s the same for red rovers). I think that it would be nice if you made it so that, instead, three waves of fire (gremlin scorcher style) would move forward, each occupying a set angle (probably about 20 degrees, with ten degree spaces without fire in-between each) so that the waves were widening as they moved away from Vanaduke, the attack ending at the edge of his mace’s range. Also, the waves would move at the same pace as the fire chains currently do.

4: Change spawns

Perhaps two more zombies should be added to phase one, a slag guard to phase three, and a slag guard to phase five? I think that this seems like an okay change, given the way you nerfed slag guards, but it’s not entirely necessary.

5: Change mask phases

It’s too easy to just throw water at the mask from the right side, repeatedly. I think that you guys should give the mask a cooldown every time water is thrown at it (making it impossible to chain-water), as well as have at move to the middle of the stage on spawn (invincible to water), giving a few seconds for bullets to build up, so that it’s harder to just throw water at it at the start and kill it in one go.

6: Make it harder to shivermist

Currently, one can simply sit in place and lay down vanaduke-hazardous bombs. Also, freezing vana disables the shadow fire because he never gets to attack. I think that he should be able to rotate a touch faster in order to turn and face players blitzing from the back, at least allowing him to occasionally pound the floor. I think there should also be some method for bringing an element of skill into shivering, but I don’t really have any ideas for that that don’t involve expanding the area of influence for his fireballs to ridiculous levels.

7: Fireball warning

Currently, it is very difficult to assault vanaduke via sword because the fireballs respawn without any sort of warning. I’d appreciate it if OOO would bother to do this.

8: No trapping vana
Dead players or water (don’t know if water has been fixed yet) shouldn’t be able to trap vana; let him run right over them.

I was inspired to do this after doing a shiverless vanaduke run with a EU friend (I’m west coast and we were on my servers) who was waaaaay off their game, while my data rate got fuzzy, repeatedly. We made it through without any CE revs or real issues, and I was a bit disturbed that I could do this after not fighting vana more than twice a week for the past month.

Anyone care?

ven, 06/15/2012 - 10:55
#1
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Zyborg
6: What if Vana went crazy

6: What if Vana went crazy with his mace and/or his fire attack whenever he was frozen? That way, players would still have to dodge stuff even when he's frozen.

7: Maybe respawning fireballs could reappear as harmless ghost balls (similar to the lost souls from the Soldier's Graveyard, except they don't explode), then catch on fire a second or two later. This would warn players of an imminent fireball respawn without using another timer.

Well anyway, these ideas all sound good to me. I'd also like to suggest preventing shadow fire from spawning right in front of the entrance gate. The gate blocks shadow fire in front of it from view, making it impossible (or at least very hard) to know it's there without running into it.

ven, 06/15/2012 - 12:19
#2
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Addisond
Also true

Yeah, gates have a tendency to be a touch annoying, pretty much in all fights. In arenas and JK, not just here. I think that keeping fire off the party button is a fine idea for now, but they should probably do something about the blinding effect of gates...

On the other comments, 6 seems like a fine change, but the actual ghosts would seem out of place. Pounding the ground is indeed a bit "crazy" for him, but I think that'd work out fine from a mechanical standpoint. I'd still like to see it made a bit harder to shiver, though, I did a fair amount of it when first doing vana, and I was usually camping to freeze the slag guard(s) or moving around to freeze the zombies.

ven, 06/15/2012 - 12:51
#3
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Demonicsothe
1. Or randomize spawn

1. Or randomize spawn locations.

2. I thought vana fights were too tame? Making debris not spawn shadowfire means that there is no reason to even move when ceiling falls. They removed the damage part already.

3. Buff 5th phase? Not sure if that's what you mean, but yes if you do.

4. Yes

5. I don't mind.

6. Not sure how this is going to work, but darkfire vana is immune to freeze. Perhaps give vana some sort of aoe that reaches just beyond his fireballs to either status or hurt the shiv, forcing them to move in and out.

7. Make vana easier, nope.

8. Well, that means u need a dead player on the ground. And that means he's not contributing. Not to mention, that would normally force vana into a wall, with no space for other players to kite circles around him.

ven, 06/15/2012 - 13:53
#4
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Addisond
@ demonic

1. This could work, too.

2. I'm not sure you read this section, I'm proposing a number of changes that mean that you would have to dodge debris and are also intended to make it more challenging to avoid the shadow fire drops, as well as a new feature that both buffs vana and fixes an issue with quasi-random damage.

3. Yeah, typo, meant phase 5. I edited it.

4/5. Not much to say

6. Yeah, I'm not sure how to change this, but it's gotta change.

7. This makes vanaduke a teensy bit easier, but it's also fixing a broken element. I don't see why you're against fixing broken things, assuming the lost difficulty is counterbalanced (and added up the difficulty increases here are significant)

8. Yeah, but it CAN happen and is a blessing when it does. I don't like it.

ven, 06/15/2012 - 19:42
#5
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Demonicsothe
2. The damage players took

2. The damage players took from the debris was almost nothing, even a ssb could take it. The scary part of it was the split second stagger that might reduce your movement enough to get smacked. The worst part about the debris was the possibility of fires spawning right on top of you, should you be within its range. This is, in its own way, a challenge. Should you introduce the entire concept, players could simply tank the debris on areas they wish clear, and completely forego watering the ground. Actually, since it disappears in seconds, there's no need to touch water anyways.

7. Broken? How is it broken? Is it broken because you cannot easily melee him to death? You go into the ring of fires knowing that it will respawn. It is a mechanic of the boss. That's like saying spawning stuff from ceilings is broken and needs nerf. Or that a boss hits too hard, and can one shot players. Or that he shouldn't have fireballs at all.

8. I don't see it as a blessing. Vana can sit against the wall, and continuously smack the people that are able to hit him. Best case scenario, 1 person is holding him in place and 2 others are attacking/shivving. Your dps just dropped by 1 person, unless you were multiboxing and throwing an alt there to die. Not to mention, the amount of effort to get vana there would mean that you need to bait him with a person, and then wait for him to charge and kill the poor sap before you start attacking and drawing aggro, is a long time.

Besides, if vana can run over players, players can run over vana. But my main point is that there is no inherent bonus to trapping vana on the wall. You have a limited area to attack, and he will always be close enough to hit you, even if you shoot from the very sides. Or you can turn him one way, hit until he turns around, and move all the way back out of his mace, then come back down the other side. One last thing about trapping him in a corner is that when he changes phase, he will always walk through your position. I say corner because that is the only place I have seen 1 dead body trap him and immobilize him. I believe you need more than that to trap him on a wall.

ven, 06/15/2012 - 23:33
#6
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Addisond
More responses

2. Well, the shadow fire itself that still drops doesn't dissapear in seconds. I see what you mean about blocking the shadow fire you don't want, though... I need to rethink this a bit, then. The fact that debris is blockable seems fine to me, but maybe they should make the debris fall a bit sooner (after the ground lights up) to make it more of a reflex-based challenge to block.

7. This is broken in that damage can occur to players without warning, assuming you aren't keeping your own timer for each fireball (highly unlikely). Right, you can generally estimate when this happens, but it's dangerous. It's like not having a counter on the mask phases. If you are fixing a broken item, though, it needs to be balanced... perhaps via a faster respawn time for the fireballs? Vanaduke is not broken in that he can one-shot players because he gives an excessively long warning beforehand. Taking damage from shadow fire that fell on you is broken in that it can kill players on an incredibly off chance; in a video game you shouldn't be forced to worry about the 1/1000 chance that you are going to trip and fall in front of a monster, this isn't really much different except that you know it's built in. Or at least that's what I think; if you want to have a mechanic that causes random-ish damage and hence scares players, that's your taste in games.

8. I'm not suggesting that this is used as a strategy, but it can happen by random chance. Players can just go back and forth (not using shivers) and blitz him as he's slamming the ground next to them. It keeps him from using his most dangerous attack, charging, on them. It's not really much different from using a shiver, but it's easier than just blitzing the old-fashioned way. I see the problem with players running over vana, though; he could stop on a dead body that got up inside of vanaduke. While this would be funny, it's bad from a gameplay perspective, since players could get trapped inside vana in the same way they can get trapped inside shadow fire. In hindsight it would just be better to have him slam players out of the way like slag guards (do they still do this?) do.

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